LED Lab 2009

[the.rise]

I am about to start a 400w cmh grow with some autoflowers and would be really interested in getting a dominantly red led panel (63w/126w) to add that extra bit of red spectrum during the flowering portion of their life (after 17-20 days). Since the cmh/reflector/ballast is already purchased going solely LED is no longer an option, but supplementing with LED is always there.

@LEDgirl does h.g.s. make custom panels? im pretty sure my cmh has blue spectrum covered well, and a bit of spare red would be really nice

 

[LEDGirl]

Our lights are currently red-dominant, using 20% warm white LED's, and 70% red LED's at 640nm and 660nm. The other 10% of our light is blue. If you wanted a light with zero blue (although if you ever plan on using the LED as a primary lighting source as it's currently designed, I do not recommend this), I could do so. We can more or less do anything custom, but what we have now is the culmination of 2 years of research, testing, and development in order to create the perfect LED Grow Light for MJ.

 

[the.rise]

I completely respect the amount of effort put forth to bring these LED's to the market. seeing that the lights are already dominantly red is quite comforting because i had already come to the assumption they were equal parts blue/red with a slight bit of warm white.

Since the area i will be growing in will be approx. 38inx44in do you think a single 63w placed in the center of the cab sitting parallel to the cmh hood would leave a footprint large enough to actually effect the entire grow? oops i thought 63w led = 400w hid for a second so was worried about too much light.

have you put any thought into making lower wattage light strips (one or two led's wide and say 30 or so long) which could be placed in say corners of cabinets to side light? or even be hung above? I know primary lighting is your main concern, but i see a huge market for supplementary LED's at good prices.

 

[skunk_one]

Has anyone tried supplement hps or cmh with 660nm ? I am planning a grow with 400 or 600w hps/cmh and 100w of ledengin red SOG AK48 on 1 square meter, i was thinking about bigger room but i wanna know is it worth buying leds for 300$, what do You think about that kind of grow, maybe warm cfl + leds are better ? i wanna get 500g from that setup in ebb&flo, 12/12 from clones, i got homemade co2 generator made from vinegar and baking soda, what do You think about shutting down fans for day peroid when co2 is pumped into room? has anybody tried it? do flowers need o2 when sun is shining?

 

[LEDGirl]

Since the area i will be growing in will be approx. 38inx44in do you think a single 63w placed in the center of the cab sitting parallel to the cmh hood would leave a footprint large enough to actually effect the entire grow? oops i thought 63w led = 400w hid for a second so was worried about too much light.

have you put any thought into making lower wattage light strips (one or two led's wide and say 30 or so long) which could be placed in say corners of cabinets to side light? or even be hung above? I know primary lighting is your main concern, but i see a huge market for supplementary LED's at good prices.

For a 38" x 44" area, you would want 2, 126W as each unit covers 24" x 36". The two of them put together (252W) have yielded over a pound via a customer grow. I'm not sure what you yield with your 400W, but customers have done 8ounces per 126W unit. It will also significantly reduce the heat in your room.

I am looking into lower wattage lighting strips. The only problem I'm finding is the cost per watt on those models, vs our current ones! Some of the strips have a cost of $3-$4 dollars per watt, my cost! My current 126W unit sells for $3.17 per watt, so it would be hard for me to make them cost competitive when my cost is higher than my retail! The one thing we could do though, is single T5 light strips that include high powered LED's. They have a lower cost, but arranging the tubes how you want them can be a bit of a hassle.

 

[the.rise]

well my 400w is good for about 300grams or so, having two 126's would be superb but in all honesty i cant shell out the $$ for two 126's at this moment. i was thinking of going with two 63's running on each side of my hood like this. []===[] where the === is the direction of my current enclosure and the two led panels would be sitting perpendicular at each end of the hood at the same level the hood is at.


How far away can LED's be hung while still effectively lighting the plants? i know this is the exact opposite question most people ask but keeping the led's raised more than 12" from canopy is what id plan to do

 

[cashmunny]

I went on digikey.com to look at some high brightness LEDs made by Cree.

The data sheets say they can achieve 90 lumens per watt. But that's for some really pricey LEDs. And it would take something like a thousand of the high output LEDs to achieve anything like HID lighting. That doesn't sound so great.

Is it because the spectrum can be concentrated right on top of the photosynthetic response peaks that you can get away with fewer lumens? Sorry if this question has been asked already, I didn't read all 57 pages of this thread.

 

[Weezard]

Those who read, succeed.

Those who read, succeed.

I went on digikey.com to look at some high brightness LEDs made by Cree.

The data sheets say they can achieve 90 lumens per watt. But that's for some really pricey LEDs. And it would take something like a thousand of the high output LEDs to achieve anything like HID lighting. That doesn't sound so great.

Is it because the spectrum can be concentrated right on top of the photosynthetic response peaks that you can get away with fewer lumens?

In a nutshell, yes.

Sorry if this question has been asked already, I didn't read all 57 pages of this thread.

It's worth the work to read at least 55 pages of it.
Aloha

Weezard

 

[billyjojimbob11]

150 Watt hood light $399.00 at ledsplus.com, well made, buddy has 3. Works better than a procyon FO SHO!

 

[LEDGirl]

And it would take something like a thousand of the high output LEDs to achieve anything like HID lighting. That doesn't sound so great.

Is it because the spectrum can be concentrated right on top of the photosynthetic response peaks that you can get away with fewer lumens? Sorry if this question has been asked already, I didn't read all 57 pages of this thread.

You're talking about lumens on a light that emits primarily orange/yellow light, vs a LED light which emits only the spectrum of light that plants convert most efficiently. When you talk about PAR ratings, a 400W MH actually has a higher value than a 400W HPS. Here are some direct quotes from SunMaster (HID Bulb Company):

"Since plants use energy between 400 and 700 nanometers and light in this region is called Photosynthetically Active Radiation or PAR, we could measure the total amount of energy emitted per second in this region and call it PAR watts. This is an objective measure in contrast to lumens which is a subjective measure since it is based on the response of the subjects (humans). PAR watts directly indicates how much light energy is available for plants to use in photosynthesis.

The output of a 400 watt incandescent bulb is about 25 watts of light, a 400 watt metal halide bulb emits about 140 watts of light. If PAR is considered to correspond more or less to the visible region, then a 400 watt metal halide lamp provides about 140 watts ofPAR. A 400 watt HPS lamps has less PAR, typically 120 to 128 watts, but because the light is yellow it is rated at higher lumens (for the human eye)."

So even though you have a 400W HID, it's only putting out 120-140W "usable" energy. On top of that reduction, the energy between 500-600nm (which generally has the highest output from the bulb), isn't hardly used for photosynthesis, rendering roughly 1/3 of the PAR Range very inefficient. If you reduce the output of the grow light by another 1/3, you end up with 80-93W of photosynthetic energy from a 400W HID.

Our LED's only emit blue, red, and a small amount of white (which is mostly red). Since our grow lights don't emit more than 10% of their total output between 500-600nm, our 126W puts out more "Par Watts" than a 400W HID according to the calculations above.

 

[LEDGirl]

150 Watt hood light $399.00 at ledsplus.com, well made, buddy has 3. Works better than a procyon FO SHO!

Here is what one of our customers had to say, who is using our lights against the 150W bar you just showed:

"“I took some cuttings from my tomato and basil plants and I put them under one of your 63 watt lights, while I’m waiting for the other seeds to germinate and low and behold, the clones took off like I’ve never seen before. Within two weeks the basil plants have 5 inch roots and the tomato’s have three inch roots, from the bottom of the net cup. This amount of root growth is unheard of and unprecedented. WOW!!!!!!!! I am thrilled to have found you and your lighting systems. By the way, I put the same cuttings under the WEX C-150 and the results weren’t as good, maybe 2 inch roots for the basil and for the tomato’s with 150 watts LED, not just 63 watts. I don’t think people realize how good your lights are.” -Patrick"

 

[LEDGirl]

How far away can LED's be hung while still effectively lighting the plants? i know this is the exact opposite question most people ask but keeping the led's raised more than 12" from canopy is what id plan to do

I don't recommend higher than 12" above your canopy, as you get the best results with the light up close. Our 60 degree lights can bloom a plant up to 42" tall, equal to a HID, while placed 12" above the plant. So technically that light energy can go about 54", but then it more or less maxes out. So the higher you put it, the less overall effect it will have on your yield, so keep that in mind.

 

[billyjojimbob11]

I don't recommend higher than 12" above your canopy, as you get the best results with the light up close. Our 60 degree lights can bloom a plant up to 42" tall, equal to a HID, while placed 12" above the plant. So technically that light energy can go about 54", but then it more or less maxes out. So the higher you put it, the less overall effect it will have on your yield, so keep that in mind.

I smell spam...

 

[mrred]

its ok she buys ads now, remember if you get your light 2x closer your buds are going be 2x bigger,

i noticed on the led grow website that the mh in the test is way above where the led is at, that aint right, what up with that?

 

[medmaker420]

I smell spam...

everyone is a mod here

why even have mods when everyone else feels they can do it all on their own. I used to run a few forums and MAN did that bug when members tried to play power roles on other members simply based on sign up date or post count.

LOVE IT!

 

[LEDGirl]

its ok she buys ads now, remember if you get your light 2x closer your buds are going be 2x bigger,

i noticed on the led grow website that the mh in the test is way above where the led is at, that aint right, what up with that?

A simple, real-world, light-to-light test, no extras. The Metal Halide bulb operates at 650 degrees Fahrenheit. My LED operates at 105 degrees. The LED was 10" above the plants, the HID was 24" the whole time. So 14" of difference, yet a light source with FAR more intensity and light energy, and WAY more watts. The only way I could keep the plants under 85 degrees, was to keep the light at that height. So simple answer to a simple question: it was not a LED vs HID + Fan + Ducting + Glass, but you're welcome to do that comparison if you'd like

 

[LEDGirl]

I smell spam...

Really? Who's ad do you see displaying across the top of the forums all the time? That's right, Hydro-Grow-LED, the company I own. Therefore, the only spam that was just posted was your message, as it was wasted space. Good try though

 

[Black Ra1n]

I wouldn't call it spam, she's simply informing the growing community of her products.

 

[mrred]

A simple, real-world, light-to-light test, no extras. The Metal Halide bulb operates at 650 degrees Fahrenheit. My LED operates at 105 degrees. The LED was 10" above the plants, the HID was 24" the whole time. So 14" of difference, yet a light source with FAR more intensity and light energy, and WAY more watts. The only way I could keep the plants under 85 degrees, was to keep the light at that height. So simple answer to a simple question: it was not a LED vs HID + Fan + Ducting + Glass, but you're welcome to do that comparison if you'd like

the 400w mh has a range of 5-18 inchs, but sure i'll comparrison, just send a light my way

 

[the.rise]

I don't recommend higher than 12" above your canopy, as you get the best results with the light up close. Our 60 degree lights can bloom a plant up to 42" tall, equal to a HID, while placed 12" above the plant. So technically that light energy can go about 54", but then it more or less maxes out. So the higher you put it, the less overall effect it will have on your yield, so keep that in mind.

what im most concerned about is even covering of the canopy with the supplemental LED's. If i hang the lights 24 inches from the canopy rather than 12 im effectively allowing for more spreading of the light, so as to cover a larger area.

the 400w cmh bulb should be fine for my cab w/o the led's but im one of those kinds of people who just like to go a step further. more usable light with less heat should mean lovely yields, assuming my roots fare well.

i really would love to throw in some extra red spectrum during flower, and if you would be able to produce long skinny 30watt panels with a wider than 60 degree reflector, (similar to t5's) that would be awesome! purely for supplementary purposes.