LED Lab 2009

[Weezard]

Quick answer...

Quick answer...

Hey Weezard,

Quick question....what do you see as an advantage to using the 15w 660nm LedEngine vs using the 5w ones?

10 Watts!

Sorry. Sometimes I jus' gotta.
Read on fo' da long answer.





Actually, with me, it's all about lazy.
The 15W dies are really 4. 5 watt dies with a single lens and substrate.
2/3rds of the wiring and solderin' has already been done for me!
If I take 4, discrete 5W. emitters and jam them into clusters on the heat sink n wire 'em up, I still don't get the penetration that a single lens 15 gives me.
There's also a smaller angle.
The 5s are 180 degree, or lambertian.
The Inverse Square Law strictly applies.
The 15's are 120 degree. Penetrates mo' betta.

I have some bricks that I built from the 5Watt leds and they work fine.
But the 15W. emitters been buildin' better bottom buds.

'Zat he'p?

Aloha,
Old Zard

 

[Oldmac]

Old Zard,

10watts......why you young wipper-snapper, I oughta smack you.

Thanks for the responce, see your reasoning. Now the great debate can take place in my head for the new light, 15w 660 vs 5w 660. I hadn't even thought about the difference in lenses before you mentioned it. And I don't think LedEngine offers narrower for the 5w. Hmmmmm.

 

[Weezard]

Old Zard,

10watts......why you young wipper-snapper, I oughta smack you.

Prolly should.
Willie would!
Gotta catch me first.
Ya Ol' fart.

I whips 'em.
I snaps 'em
I packages and wraps 'em.
Den serve 'em up, still steamin'
Just ta piss my buddies off.

Thanks for the responce, see your reasoning. Now the great debate can take place in my head for the new light, 15w 660 vs 5w 660. I hadn't even thought about the difference in lenses before you mentioned it. And I don't think LedEngine offers narrower for the 5w. Hmmmmm.

(No listen to da voices, dey not real brah.)



Aloha, O.M..

Weeze

 

[OzricTentacles]

Ok I’m reading practically all the thread, I retain some parts and I have some questions???

First I’m very new on that activity, I’m not a regular consumer and last time I smoked was in autumn 1979. ;-) But now I’m interested for growing but essentially under led. I build a box too large but I have an Ikea wardrobe useless and I transform that by inside covering with cheap mylar survey blanket and separate on the width approx. 1/3 for veg 2/3 bloom. (H 65” x W 31” x D 19”)

At the start of this thread somebody tell that the long blooming under led was not a problem for him because he saw a better flavor. My questions are, is it better terpene with slow bloom or specific of Led growing? Why a big part of the thread was for have the same blooming speed than HPS ?

My conception of growing is based on searching of quality instead quantity, in that way is there a rainbow setup that more THC productive than other? Is the led have potential to produce better quality? That's the way i'm interested to search.

Considering Led I think the thread is more oriented about lab than leds, I saw the Knna spreadsheet for evaluate the efficiency of the led but I understand nothing, maybe I have to understand all the theory before I start experiment, but it will more easy for novice to access a palmares of best led for building their experimental PAR rainbow. I think there's only few Leds that have better quality than other, if you know that please give some clue.

For my part I’m very attempted to build something like : uv, deep blue, blue, yellow, amber, red, deep red and far red, for blooming , but I’m less shure for veg I think about few deep blue, white, red 640nm ? I found less clue about veg in this thread.

About light penetration, I retain that focus is the most important part, my question is what’s the best way to focus led? With reflectors, I guess. But what I understand is the led light loose less photon than HPS in reflection, right? And about the current, I understand that’s better to use led at their lower current and much cool as possible to have better efficiency, right?

Sorry, what you see is my English is approximative and my Spanish is no more than el come galletas. ;-)

 

[mallorqueta]

Hello friends, I pass by here to greet you and tell you that I opened a mini monitor indoor growing, with self-produced LED lamp, I invite you to spend
Sorry for my English.

 

[mx5spd]

Am I correct? I need to build two lights for a pair of 1 sq foot cabs. Now I think I read you need 25 watts per sq foot. If I buy Leds that run at 350ma I need to buy 25 per light. If I run them at 500ma they should give off more light and I would not have to buy as many. How do I figure the FV if they only give you FV@350ma.

Is buying fewer LEDs and running them harder a false economy?


Thanks

 

[TheFallenLion]

Doing very nice Weezard, I haven't checked in here in awhile.

Islander, Weezard is for real, he builds his own arrays, he buys commercial products, he uses CO2, those are real buds, he's been posting on this thread since it started 50 pages ago, case closed.

 

[N-P-Kali]

Stealthgow.com has 600watt and 1200watt LED's!!! As well as some decent literature on the subject. Has anyone heard of these guys?

 

[Weezard]

"This way, to the great egress!" P. T. Barnum

"This way, to the great egress!" P. T. Barnum

Stealthgow.com has 600watt and 1200watt LED's!!! As well as some decent literature on the subject. Has anyone heard of these guys?

"Wattage – 1,200 watts: Actual Draw 586 watts ."

So, why do they call it "1,200 watts" ?!
("Because if we called it a "sad meal", no one would buy it.")

3 amps @ 220V; = 660W.

6.5 amps @ 110V = 715W.

Spectrum of Light - Peaks at 455-475nm and 620-630nm

Their tutorial has it right about 660nm. being the key to Fat, dense, buds.
Yet they want to sell us 2 Watt, underdriven, junk kine, 625s instead.
At highly inflated prices too!
Tsk!
This is why I build my own.

Aloha,
Weezard

 

[boomerang]

Is buying fewer LEDs and running them harder a false economy?

Yes LEDs will heat up and being less efficient. Also their lifespan will be drasticaly reduced.

 

[boomerang]

I've transformed a laptop adapter into a LED driver. I think that's a good way for driving grow LED. You can expect to drive up to 30W with one adapter. It' cheap, energy efficient and reliable. I would be glad to help people wanting to do the same thing on this thread http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=143526

 

[Jopedijoo]

Howdy everyone!

Howdy everyone!

Some people were suggesting that the best way to supplement the blue and red spectrums would be by using white light. As that might be efficient right now, that doesn't really solve the riddle of what the optimum spectrums for our tomato plants would be. Instead of blasting the "lock" open with a sledge hammer (aka white light) it would be way more informative to try and combine separate spectrums and that way figure out the right combo. And yes, I guess most of the different color combinations have already been tested at least to some extent. What interests me is the yellow/amber spectrum. At least by visible light if you combine blue and yellow/amber you will get some green even though much won't be needed. If you combine deep red with yellow/amber you will get a mix of everything from yellow/amber to deep red according to the ratio of how much each of these separate spectrums would be used. So all in all, if you will use lets say 450nm blue, 590nm amber and 660nm you will get at least a little of everything from 450nm to 660nm. At least by visible light, not sure if actual photons function this way in the real world..

 

[canna cola]

Is there any software that can be used to show what overall spectrum a particular combination of LEDs will produce?

 

[asde]

jo jopedijoo, my idea is roughly:
001% of the light @ 240-340nm
004% of the light @ 340-400nm
019% of the light @ 400-475nm
001% of the light @ 475-550nm
006% of the light @ 550-575nm
006% of the light @ 575-620nm
059% of the light @ 620-680nm
004% of the light @ 680-760nm

calculated by absorptions and researchers results from the last years, formula is for sure not perfect yet but i believe its not far from it

 

[Jopedijoo]

jo jopedijoo, my idea is roughly:
001% of the light @ 240-340nm
004% of the light @ 340-400nm
019% of the light @ 400-475nm
001% of the light @ 475-550nm
006% of the light @ 550-575nm
006% of the light @ 575-620nm
059% of the light @ 620-680nm
004% of the light @ 680-760nm

calculated by absorptions and researchers results from the last years, formula is for sure not perfect yet but i believe its not far from it

Thanks asde, those are interesting figures! Where did you get these? Maybe there is some room for white light after all, not much but some. Even so I don't have an idea either for how to count what the overall spectrum for combining different combinations of led spectrums will be as canna cola was pointing out.. Any ideas? It seems that 80% of the used light falls in the blue and the red spectrums. You could get there roughly by using 2 blue and 6 red (2x625nm + 4x660nm?), or maybe 2 blue, 2 amber and 4 deep red. And then maybe add 1 white to fill in for the spectrums missed..?

If you combine just blue and red you'll get pinkish light. Is pink what we really want or is that just a visual hallucination that plays no relevance for the plants? The sama applies for combining amber and blue, you'll get loads of green light. At least that's how it will seem to the eye. Am I misinterpreting something here, I'm confused...

 

[Weezard]

Light control.

Light control.

Old Zard,

10watts......why you young wipper-snapper, I oughta smack you.

Thanks for the responce, see your reasoning. Now the great debate can take place in my head for the new light, 15w 660 vs 5w 660. I hadn't even thought about the difference in lenses before you mentioned it. And I don't think LedEngine offers narrower for the 5w. Hmmmmm.

Sorry, missed that first time around.
There's a compromise.
I wanted a better angle on the 5W emitters too, so I bought acrylic lenses to bring them to 60 Degrees.

(The 40 degree lenses had too small a footprint).
Works a treat!
They also make parabolic reflectors as an add-on.



So, it's easy to add some blue to control stretch on a single plant by using a narrow-beam blue spot.


Jus' a few more variables to keep yer head busy.
Howzit with Tonto?

Weeze-ing ol' fart

 

[Oldmac]

Hey Weezard,

Thanks for that update on lenses. I think that 60 degrees is a good angle to shoot for. I'm trying to figure out what I need for blue to get a good balance, plus will use some whites. I'm trying to compare output levels of the 660nm reds to various blue diodes.

Tonto is doing good but most of my "free time" is spent trying to help him lately. Biggest problem is he can't hold a scissors (broke his right wrist) and he is/was my automated trimming machine. I'm trying to teach him to trim left handed, but it is becomming clear, he's not ambidexterious.

 

[Thundurkel]

60 degrees is the shit from what I've read I know that LEDGirls units are 30 and 60 degree while most other companies use 120 degrees ect

 

[LEDGirl]

Since no one has posted it yet, I'll do a simple copy and paste from my website (and the numbers I list, correspond to Marijuana specifically):

"Plants convert light energy into plant energy via a process called photosynthesis. There are two primary compounds that drive photosynthesis: Chlorophyll A, and B. These compounds absorb primarily blue and red light, while nearly all other spectra are reflected. The point at which Chlorophyll converts light energy into plant energy most efficiently, is known as an absorption peak. These peaks can be measured in units called nanometers (nm). Peak absorption points for Chlorophyll A occur at 439nm and 667nm, while they occur at 469nm and 642nm for Chlorophyll B.

LED’s are light sources that emit narrow wavelengths of light, and can be tailored to nearly any nm that you desire. By using LED’s at the same nm as each of the absorption points for Chlorophyll, we are able to convert light energy into plant energy more efficiently than ever before! Unlike HID lights, which emit the full spectrum of light (most of which is unused by plants), our LED Grow Lights emit only the spectra that plants require, resulting in much higher efficiency in terms of growth per watt. By using the proper ratio of LED’s, 85% - 100% of the light our units create is used for photosynthesis. This means your plants need way fewer watts with our LED’s, to produce the same yields you’re accustomed to under HID, or our competitors' LED Grow Lights!

Our Penetrator grow lights include 440nm, 470nm, 640nm, 660nm, white and infra-red LED’s. We have dialed-in the perfect ratio of each color, to achieve unbelievable growth during all stages of plant development. We solved the penetration issues associated with most other LED lights, by using 60 degree lenses to create much more intense beams of light, that pierce downward through your canopy. Be prepared for higher yields of greater quality, with no heat stress and lower power bills, when using our Penetrator LED Grow Lights!"

 

[LEDGirl]

And in case no one else covered this point:

1W LED's have the highest lumen per watt output of any wattage LED period. When you use a 3W or 5W LED in a grow light, the common misconception is that the higher powered light source will be able to carry light energy farther than a 1W LED, allowing for better penetration. This is false, as any LED manufacturer will tell you (Cree, Luxeon, Osram, etc...). The manufacturers will also tell you that you lose luminous output when raising the wattage of a LED. We'll take the information from Edison's website to make a simple comparison:

Here is the 1W spec sheet: http://www.edison-opto.com.tw/products_detail.asp?category=1&cno=204

Here is the 3W spec sheet: http://www.edison-opto.com.tw/products_detail.asp?category=1&cno=203

Let's use the 620-630nm red, since that's pretty standard in most grow lights. The 1W red emits 45 lumens at 350mA, while the 3W red emits 80 lumens at 700mA. According to a regional rep at Cree (who makes some of the chips that Edison uses), to find the value of a given led at 700mA, when you have a 350mA rating, you use a 1.72 multiplier.

So if we amp our 1W up to 700mA, the output would be 77.4 lumens. Even if we leave the 1W's at 350mA, they still put out more light, as 3 x 45 = 135 lumens, and a single 3W LED only emits 80.

Therefore, using anything other than multiple 1W LED light sources, does nothing other than reduce the efficiency of your LED Grow Light.