Healthcare passes house. your thoughts?

[Frozenguy]

I think finally USA is catching up with the rest of civilized nations.

I do not understand this anti healthcare nonsense I see in the USA, it makes no sense.

In one argument you have people saying it will cost to much. USA spends more on military defense than any country. The two wars in Afghanistan and Iraq have bankrupted USA, and they have already dumped numbers up to 50 trillion into the war effort. This is insane, yet people will complain about a healthcare plan that costs 1 trillion dollars over a long period of time? I suppose propaganda does work!

Funny USA could decommission 10 or 20 of its 45 or so nuclear submarines and pay for healthcare there. Military spending is the single largest part of the USA budget, and also the most secretive.

USA taxpayers shell out buko bucks for secret classified technology they don't even know about and is spun in the news as UFOs.

There will still be private insurance providers you can get crappy coverage with. Yes many will go out of business, and god willing too, since that is a GOOD thing for private insurance companies to go out of business.
Those companies make their money by KILLING people, flat out killing people. It is disgusting the "free market" capitalism system you claim to have. Funny in the USA constitution there is no mention of a free market system. That is because it is a bad thing and markets need regulation to keep from running wild and selling snake oil (EXACTLY why USA has all the problems it does now with the economy, energy, healthcare, housing crisis, etc.).

It seems to me many of those arguments stem from a lack of knowledge about what socialism really is, and that many systems people live by are socialist in nature. In this way I cannot see how people can complain about it being socialism.
The fire department, police, unemployment, medicare, social security, etc., etc it goes on and on you pool money into services so you have them free of charge as needed. Adding healthcare to this is not only common sense but an inherent right to all persons. These people CLEARLY do not know what socialism is and USA right wingers need to wake up to the fact that they have tons of socialist programs!

Many rich people will pay out of pocket, because they can, to go to the specialist centers or specialist doctors at the top of their fields to receive such treatment from them. It seems liars turn this into there being long wait lines in treatment facilities and so on when that is false. Rich people will pay to go to the best doctors and receive the best, most expensive drugs and will travel anywhere to do it. This is the nature of a capitalist game, and it's entirely bullshit!

I would like to expound on some other arguments:



I don't see the problem with this. People should want healthcare, and in fact why shouldn't it be required for everyone, especially working tax paying citizens? In USA if you have an emergency and have to go to the hospital and you don't have health insurance and you can't pay for it, EVERYONE ELSE has to pay the bill and this overall results in higher healthcare costs for you and everyone else! This system will make it so you have to get healthcare so that you do not wind up making everyone else pay for your health problems like it does now!



I don't see the problem with this (it shows a lack of knowledge about what physician assistants are and what they do).
Physician assistants are more than qualified to oversee routine care for hospice patients. Physician assistants must have extensive training and have taken over practices such as setting bones and making casts and assisting doctors with surgery. Many of the easier tasks once relegated to doctors has been passed on to physician assistants to free up doctors' time for more important work. Most physician assistants get into the field because it makes becoming a medical doctor easier and many go on to become doctors.



I would assume without fact checking the actual wording that you are simply misrepresenting or lying what is actually said. Its probably true that for your numbers given the costs of healthcare now far exceed what you stated, meaning americans will save money because they are dishing out much more already.

Again if you are so worried about cost stop funding wars and think about where all the american people's money went (those wars again). Healthcare could have been paid for 50 times over with that money!




I doubt this is true for many reasons. For starters, the public option will allow seniors to opt into the plan as opposed to having medicare. This is what they want, so they can phase out medicare and get all seniors that need to on a public plan. Once there is a public option there really is no need anymore for medicare, since seniors can just get the public option and still not have to pay for anything AND get EVEN BETTER service and healthcare!




SO? AND? You say with no required qualifications but "having 'documented community activity and experience with community healthcare workers' to 'educate, guide, and provide experiential learning opportunities' aimed at drug abuse, poor nutrition, smoking and obesity" IS A HUGE QUALIFICATION are you really serious?

Community entities, such as the YMCA, nonprofit groups, substance addiction centers, rape crisis centers, etc., etc. will get additional support so that they can help the community and try and make communities as a whole healthier by education. And education works! Trying to curb unhealthy eating, smoking, etc., etc and get people to eat healthy and live healthier lives will invariably cut healthcare costs down tremendously and give people a better chance to be and stay healthy!




Gee I sure hope so, the white racist elites of the USA and world have been shitting all over minority groups from the beginning and it needs to change. The biggest groups of people who need the most help, and most funding for education and thus the empowerment to change your situation, are minority groups.

This article is more education funding so children receive education on how to keep themselves healthy and so will invariability cut down overall healthcare costs.

I am beginning to see a huge pattern of lies and misconceptions about this healthcare plan. Everything in it so far you have pointed out is in fact a GOOD thing, but you are trying to claim it is bad. What the fuck???!?!



No it is the qualified professional being appointed by the people to figure out exactly what everyone is going to need and what it will cost. They will tell the people what is needed/wanted/required and from there negotiate depending on the actual amounts and what is required to implement the a public option and what the plan will cover.

Also, the secretary will be able to look at people who are on private health insurance plans and say "wait, this plan says you can be excluded for preexisting conditions, or this says etc., etc., etc" and because of the company you are with is trying to fuck you over, you don't have to pay their expensive premiums for terrible health coverage since it doesn't qualify because they are not covering you, and insurance companies will be required to sell plans that actually cover people no matter what conditions, and they won't be able to overcharge or deny people to get on a plan when they already have a preexisting condition. The price will be regulated in this way so private companies can't screw you and you won't have to pay huge costs to get on a health plan that actually covers you and will ensure that you get the best treatment for your condition.

Again all these things are good things not bad things I can't understand why some USA people don't want a public option.




These are just ridiculous lies. I don't know where people get this stuff from, but they should stop listening to right wing frauds and liars. The stimulus package has saved or created upwards to 600,000 jobs, or over 1 million if you count indirect funding for job creation.

The only people I can see brainwashed here are those who decry a public option and reformation of USA healthcare.

These people don't seem to understand that the rest of the world looks at them like a joke. I would imagine the same people trying to curb a public option deny global warming science and evolution. It is funny when you look at the poles in USA it is pretty much only 25% or so of fringe ultra conservative republicans who do not want a public option or health reform, who deny global warming, want no welfare system, etc., etc. Very telling!




I just checked the documents, it says nothing in there about a "free market" system or anything about having a "capitalistic economy" with no regulation. Hmmmmmmm

Healthcare IS a right. Just because you do not want to think so doesn't mean it is any less a right. I will love to see you decry healthcare being a right when you have no money are sick and dying and a hospital won't take you because you have no money. You will be begging on your knees for universal healthcare!

Its funny people don't seem to realize that a public option is not for those who like their plans and want to pay huge premiums to insurance companies while getting fucked over its for the millions of people without any health coverage who need it and want it and who don't want to pay out the ass for it while being entirely covered knowing they can get care whenever they get sick!




See above. USA spent 50+ trillion on 2 fake wars for oil and spends more on military budget than most of the rest of the world combined! Ever hear of food not bombs you should try that shit sometime maybe then usa economy won't be a shit hole!


Hows that shit working out for ya?

You lost in 'nam too! Guerrilla warfare will pretty much always beat out any technology hands down unless you nuke large areas. And even then bombing large areas, even whole countries, isn't really that effective.

Um.. wow. I have a headache after reading this post.
Yeah, we are spending a ton on wars; I don't agree with that either! I'm fighting against that too! Doesn't mean we have to stop arguing about everything else.

The government health care plan will bankrupt most private sector insurance companies forcing us to take the public option from the government.

Then, you wont' be able to order pizza or buy bacon because the government will find a reason to get a foot into food establishments, and since they know you need a coronary heart valve or something, you can't have that burger. Think I'm crazy?

We need to do what we do for other countries, find volunteers and do those dental/medical clinics for those that truly can't pay for their coverage. For major stuff, then taxes can be subsidized in to that. But for taxpayers to outright PAY for others health coverage or go to jail? Give me a break.

And the Vietnam war was meant to be lost. But that is another can of worms.

 

[CityKnightz]

Having healthcare will seem meaningless when you have to fork out a 100 dollar bill for a loaf of bread. This is where you are heading right now..
..

Its amazing the theories that people come up with. Don't they have free health care in Canada??? How much is a loaf of bread there? Complaining about the cost of health care while fighting not one but TWO wars is non-sense.

 

[9Lives]

Its amazing the theories that people come up with. Don't they have free health care in Canada??? How much is a loaf of bread there? Complaining about the cost of health care while fighting not one but TWO wars is non-sense.

The wars are also bullshit..obviously. Big government is bullshit..the bailout is bullshit..

Healthcare is just another nail in the coffin. The government should just step back and cut it's numbers.

I still don't believe Americans went to war over 9/11..Nothing good has ever come from fighting in Afganistan just ask the Russians. I still can't believe they elected Bush TWICE!

It's just another mistake in a series of mistakes..

When you have an 11 trillion surplus...It would not be such a big issue. But it would still be not what U.S.A is about..

 

[Texicannibus]

Its amazing the theories that people come up with. Don't they have free health care in Canada??? How much is a loaf of bread there? Complaining about the cost of health care while fighting not one but TWO wars is non-sense.

Socialist system and what is the tax rate in Canada? I have heard its 35-45% maybe thats false. We are printing money at a unprecedented rate. The monetary policy of the current administration is nothing short of scary. For the most part other countries are doing the same wich only makes it 'seem' as if we are stable. BTW check that chart I posted on what we already spend on healthcare without this new bill. Now several spending bills was passed to fund the wars I believe but somehow I doubt they total anywhere near 1.5 trillion a year. Why shouldnt we be complaining when the interest payment on our countries debt = what we spend on defense?

 

[slappyjack]

The government health care plan will bankrupt most private sector insurance companies forcing us to take the public option from the government.

Gawd, I hope so. Criminal bastards.

 

[Marywanna]

Having read this whole thread i'm left wondering 1 thing, i'm not american so i dont have a full understanding so please bare with me..

Say you dont have health insurance and are working 9 to 5 to support your stay at home wife and 3 kids.
Supposing one of the kids has cancer and you cant afford the treatment , i'm thinking of the film john q with denzel washington type of thing.

What happens to the kid?

In that case you would travel to a large Hospital like Cleveland Clinic, Mayo Clinic, or St Judes Children. They do not turn away patients if they cannot pay and the care is usually much better in teaching hospitals like those.

 

[JimBeamKush]

It is so funny to read people argue. When there would be A much more simpile way to go about healthcare.

People can not see past the $. Because $ is survival. So that is all we are really worried about.

Please all christians, jews, muslims, atheists, agnostics, and everyone else in the world, lets all take a moment to woreship the one true god, the one we all are a slave to every day.

MONEY

 

[Frozenguy]

Gawd, I hope so. Criminal bastards.

Yes they are.
But forcing people to pay a lot of money for others health care or get yourself in jail isn't criminal?

You didn't include it in my quote, but I am FOR health care reform; just not this plan or really anything similar to it. Something that actually gets to the root of the problem ie: pharmaceutical companies, doctors, hospitals, and medical equipment manufacturers.

Adopting this socialized health care plan is not the route to take.

"The American people will never knowingly adopt Socialism. But under the name of 'liberalism' they will adopt every fragment of the Socialist program, until one day America will be a Socialist nation, without knowing how it happened." -Norman Thomas

“I no longer need to run as a Presidential Candidate for the Socialist Party. . The Democrat Party has adopted our platform." - Norman Thomas

Drop a frog into boiling water, it'll jump out.
Put a frog in room temp. water, THEN bring it to a boil, the frog gets cooked.

 

[Amstel Light]

Look at the bill people. It's complete government control:

# “Sec. 59b (pp. 297-299) says that when you file your taxes, you must include proof that you are in a qualified plan. If not, you will be fined thousands of dollars. Illegal immigrants are exempt from this requirement.”




A complete joke . We need real reform, Tort reform, not sharks in the fucking dunk-tank.

so what is it if they would have added illegal's then you would be crying that they did! TORT REFORM HAHAHAHAHAH now thats a joke!=1%

lol, brainwashed. You are complete, dogmatic, talking points. Your poor starved brain :-/

nah we know who is brainwashed.....teabaggers backing up big corperations thinking they are fighting for america....did you see glen beck cry?

Let's not forget the context that the Constitution was written in. For example, when they wrote it, it was in reference to the "white, propertied, male Christian" whose idea of the "pursuit of happiness" is keeping his land and his status. So, if you want to say that "life," as it is written in the Constitution, necessarily implies healthcare, you are denying that their definition of protecting the unalienable right of life is for the ability to own guns so that one can defend one's "property."

And if you want to bring Jesus or God in to the discussion, why not every other religion's god? What would they think of the healthcare reform? This just goes to say that the Constitution was basically all about the white, propertied, male Christian, and that it was nothing but that until amendments were made.

lousy post! without the original document those amendments could have not been made.... and i think jesus was brought in to show the hipocracy of the right wing holy rollers....

Having read this whole thread i'm left wondering 1 thing, i'm not american so i dont have a full understanding so please bare with me..

Say you dont have health insurance and are working 9 to 5 to support your stay at home wife and 3 kids.
Supposing one of the kids has cancer and you cant afford the treatment , i'm thinking of the film john q with denzel washington type of thing.

What happens to the kid?

the kid dies a miserable death...meanwile a healthcare ceo is getting paid 400thousand a weak....

...... please explain what winning looks like to you.

uuummm winning does not include invading a country that had nothing to do with the attack on our soil and would include taking out the 1 man who claimed to....bin laden...... 8 years of getting raped by halliburton and other big business and the death of many people is not winning in my book...

Um.. wow. I have a headache after reading this post.
well maybe now you can get treatment for that soon...

 

[FreshlyShaven]

In that case you would travel to a large Hospital like Cleveland Clinic, Mayo Clinic, or St Judes Children. They do not turn away patients if they cannot pay and the care is usually much better in teaching hospitals like those.

And then you'll be be presented with a bill that can easily top 100 thousand dollars. Then you declare bankruptcy and lose your home, retirement and savings and then you're finally eligible for real healthcare under the evil socialist program known as "Medicaid". Of course, in order to be eligible, you have to be living in poverty so as long as you want to be able to afford treatment, you have to give up your job if it pays more than minimum wage and basically live off a pittance.

Then, you wont' be able to order pizza or buy bacon because the government will find a reason to get a foot into food establishments, and since they know you need a coronary heart valve or something, you can't have that burger. Think I'm crazy?

This is stupid. Canada, the UK, France, Australia and New Zealand all have government-supported health care(in the UK, every doctor is a government employee and every hospital is government-run; in the other countries mentioned, doctors and hospitals are largely private but each citizen is provided health insurance by the government) and yet it's still legal to buy a Big Mac in Canada, last I checked. The US government doesn't need to provide healthcare to have an excuse to intrude in our lives(alcohol and drug prohibition were both started before even Medicare was around).

But for taxpayers to outright PAY for others health coverage or go to jail? Give me a break.

I know. It's so ridiculous that I have to pay for other people's fire insurance. I mean, if your house burns down, why should I have to pay for it? Why should my tax dollars be spent on sending firefighters to somebody else's house without even asking for a credit card number first. I mean, yeah, if a fire broke out and the homeowner didn't have insurance, the fire could burn down the entire city and cause billions of dollars of damage, but isn't that a small price to pay for FREEDOM????

And not only that, but we've got socialized schools. Socialized libraries and parks. And if my neighbor gets raped, she gets to call the cops and then they use MY TAX DOLLARS to send her to the hospital, order a DNA test, investigate, prosecute the rapists and incarcerate them. Why doesn't the dumb bitch pay for it herself? What's that? She can't afford to hire an investigator, an attorney and to rent out a prison cell? Well maybe she should have thought about that before she got raped. Stupid welfare queens.

Healthcare is just another nail in the coffin. The government should just step back and cut it's numbers.

I don't understand this logic. Health insurance is required, whether it's provided by the government or a third party. From the individual's perspective, that's because it's the only way to afford treatment for the vast majority of the populace. People cannot afford surprise 80, 000 dollar bills but they can afford to put a small monthly amount away in good health in order to prepare for such an event.

Now, insurance has to be mandatory. You may think you can opt-out but you can't. If an uninsured person gets seriously injured, they will be brought to the hospital and they will be treated. When they are unable to pay, the costs are passed on to those who do pay into the system. In other words, the insurance system is going to pay for your treatment either way- it is perfectly reasonable then that you be asked to contribute since you are receiving the benefits(a safety net, albeit one that will ruin your credit score and wipe you out financially). For there to be a truly voluntary insurance system, we would have to allow the uninsured to die if they can't pay, something no civilized society can allow.

So we need to have insurance and it needs to be mandatory. So why shouldn't it be provided by the government? Government insurance(Medicare, the VA system, the NHS, the insurance programs in France, Australia, Canada, NZ and elsewhere) has been shown to provide better coverage for less money. Government insurance programs are almost always more efficient and more fair than private insurance programs(98 percent of Medicare's funding is spent directly on providing healthcare; less than 80 percent of the average insurance company's revenues are spent on healthcare. Moreover, they are able to reduce inefficiency since having one insurer creates a lot less confusion and paperwork than having dozens with their own forms and their own rules. They are also less likely to deny treatments and when they do so, it is more likely to be for a legitimate reason such as "there are generics available" or "this treatment has not been shown effective in clinical trials" whereas private insurance companies regularly refuse treatments, many of which are absolutely necessary but too expensive for the insurance company's tastes). Not only is government insurance cheaper, it's also growing at a much smaller pace. Per capita expenditure for private insurance has grown at almost twice the speed of per capita expenditure for Medicare which is amazing considering Medicare patients are much more likely to need expensive and cutting-edge treatments than are average patients. So why would you rather spend 100 dollars for shitty care at a private insurance company than spend 40 dollars on world-class care through the government?

 

[9Lives]

It is so funny to read people argue. When there would be A much more simpile way to go about healthcare.

People can not see past the $. Because $ is survival. So that is all we are really worried about.

Please all christians, jews, muslims, atheists, agnostics, and everyone else in the world, lets all take a moment to woreship the one true god, the one we all are a slave to every day.

MONEY

AMEN!

If you are a slave to money..that just means you are worth less..

no biggie..

 

[JimBeamKush]

It is so sad to see people react like this, I really thought better than that. I for one have NO problem with my tax dollars going to help someone else who is sick.

I donate money every month to ST Judes. EVERY month, and I dont make much and I am a full time college student.

What makes me mad about this is the patheticness of people. I can not believe people are really mad about this, it is sad. I for one am for goverment healthcare.

The goverment has to run and control a uncountable number of programs and things. They have to try to make EVERYONE happy, they have to try and do stuff to make everyone who bitchs and moans about other people happy.

As far as I am concerened you people can shove it up your ass. I for one live in the southeast bible belt with so many right wing conservatives, you guys are the biggest group of hypocirtiacal bunch of basterds I have ever seen. You can take your twisted version of god and shove it right where the sun does not shine.

I have read many books about many relegions and I have yet to read about one relegion that would not want healthcare for EVERYONE.

Makes me fucking sick. You all think your going to heaven when you can not even sacrafice for someone you do not know.

EDIT: Also I give PROPS to the American goverment! Good job Obama, Good job to the house, the senate, everyone. FUCK anyone who does not realize what you guys do everyday to try and make everyone happy.

You can not make 100% of people happy. I for one think the goverment needs to quit trying.

God bless the mighty $.

 

[9Lives]

^^Wtf are you on about ? Why do you even mention religion! Religion is for idiots..and all religions are equally idiotic! Have you no shame ?

There is no hell there is no heaven. End of story...There is only what works and what does'nt..

Might as well quote something written down by a retard! Makes as much sense..

 

[JimBeamKush]

9lifes say what you want about relegion, many people everyday devote their entire life too it. and that makes it important wether or not you believe.

I for one believe in a higher power, whatever it may be I do not know. But it is not the 2000 year old relegion that some people believe in.

 

[9Lives]

9lifes say what you want about relegion, many people everyday devote their entire life too it. and that makes it important wether or not you believe.

I for one believe in a higher power, whatever it may be I do not know. But it is not the 2000 year old relegion that some people believe in.

Santa Clause ? LOL...what a joke!

 

[JimBeamKush]

Great well thought out come back.... Good job 9lives...

Really at a lose I can not have a adult conversation with someone who is acting like a kid.

 

[9Lives]

Great well thought out come back.... Good job 9lives...

Really at a lose I can not have a adult conversation with someone who is acting like a kid.

Hey im not the one talking to my imaginary friend...

There really is nothing to discuss..I'm pretty sure the healthcare bill will go through and i'm pretty sure it will end up being a bad idea..Time will tell..

I wish i was wrong...i wish money was infinite..but it's not...

 

[JimBeamKush]

Well seeing as how I never talk to my higher power and stuff I do not see how I talk to my imaginary friend, maybe you should try being a little more open minded. Maybe other people have other beliefs than you?

But instead of thinking you know everything, which is defiantly not true, maybe try to understand where someone else is coming from.

I believe in a higher power, and that might not even be the right term for it, but I do not think we are just another animal on this earth destined to live and die without meaning.

But at the same time I do not belive in the normal god or any written works of man.

 

[maryj315]

^^Wtf are you on about ? Why do you even mention religion! Religion is for idiots..and all religions are equally idiotic! Have you no shame ?

There is no hell there is no heaven. End of story...There is only what works and what does'nt..

Might as well quote something written down by a retard! Makes as much sense..

Whats that all about

Mj

 

[9Lives]

but I do not think we are just another animal on this earth destined to live and die without meaning.

Baby needs a bottle ?

Let's just stop it here and get back on topic. It's nonsense to argue about nonsense..

I have no esoteric beliefs btw..and it feels damn good. I just speculate with what i see..But let's just stop this untill we ruin a perfectly good thread..

(EDIT: Sorry if i was insensitive! I'm not used to people talking about religion or bringing religion into a serious discussion. I'm from a part of Europe that has less than 15% religious people and most of them are what you would call our friend JimBeamKush...''spiritual''! So really to me it just sounds like a mental disorder! Sorry again!)