mycorrhizae with organics

[ganja din]

I'm not surprised, I've had it appear in coir too. Do soil spores ever go airborne?

Some spores yes. AM (Arbuscular Mycorrhizal) fungi spores no. Ectomycorrhizal fungi (ie. truffle) spores: maybe? (but I have some doubts, I just haven't looked into it).

 

[ganja din]

i do use rock phosphate but also high P guano

are the myco easy to see when you inspect the root zone (after harvest)

I would not use AM fungi and bat guano because bat guano P is available to microbes quickly, thus can surely hinder AM fungi.

GL

 

[ganja din]

@ ALL:

Taxonomy and nomenclature is important and not using proper terms (in some instances) does us, and our hobby/passion a disservice, in my opinion.

My main gripe is the terms being used for AM fungi. Other more exotic terms I don't really care about because they rarely come up in posts. But AM fungi are commonly written about.

So, to prevent confusion would everyone consider using either "AM" or "AM fungi/fungus/fungal" when referring to arbuscular mycorrhizal fungi? Yes, it's "mycorrhizal fungi", not "mycorrhiza fungi". The term "mycorrhiza" is used as "myocrrhiza association". Some terms I have read in this thread can be confused with other genera of fungi, etc. Typing "AM" is easier and faster than typing all the other terms I have read in this thread. And FWIW, fungi = plural while fungus = singular.

-"root fungi": can be many types of fungi which reside in the rhizosphere, it lacks a modifier like 'root penetrating fungi'. Regardless, root fungus will confuse most people IMO, it confused me.

-"mike": WTF? lol (j/k ). To 'shroom' growers 'mike' means "mycelium", not "mycorrhizal fungi".

-"myco": can be confused with "ectomycorrhizal fungi", ie. truffles (which are fruting body).

-And the others terms I might have missed can be treated similarly.

Please don't take offense with this post, I is written with the best, and friendliest intentions I have. It's confusing reading different (incorrect) term for AM fungi.

 

[ganja din]

Does this mean that if the herd is healthy and the medium charged that the plant controls it's nutrient uptake and any efforts
on our part to manipulate that is sort of a waste of time because the
plant is in charge?

Pretty much, unless you add so much organic ferts that you injure the plant/rhziosphere/micro-herd/fungi. But, the communication is two way. The plant seems to have the most 'say' as to what happens, but it doesn't seem like a dictatorship down there

I use limited amounts of 'ferts' and let the plant tell me if it needs more by watching their grow and leaf color, etc. It's easier to add more than take some away...

All this take makes me want to suggest people purchase the same microscope I have. Then one can just look at a sample of the micro-herd in the media to try and find the 'ceiling' of organic ferts before it starts hindering a majority of microbes...

 

[ganja din]

After harvest I have never checked, but at transplant yes I can see them.

Or I am seeing something else. Never taken a myco id lesson. There is something that appears to be from that kingdom all over my roots.

You can't tell if its AM fungi just looking at the mycelium. But if it's inside the roots it's a good bet it/they is/are AM fungi. By "all over" your roots, do you also mean "within" your roots?

Hope your good!

 

[ganja din]

Why all the speculation & not a single controlled test?
It couldn't get much simpler... 2 plants, 60 days & you'll KNOW!

Did you miss the first few pages?

sigh...

 

[vonforne]

Yea I could. But I was thinking this thread is worthy of a sticky or something else that prevents it from getting 'lost'. Opinion?

Thanks

I would agree with that. A stand alone Sticky in the Reference thread on organics.



V

 

[ganja din]

true, with the proviso that some inorganic forms, particularly P, are not water soluble or plant available. This is why triple phosphate was invented; the mineral form (I believe sequestered is the wrong term here from my linguistic perspective) is subjected to chemical treatment to make it available.

Huh? A P cation (ie. microbial bio-fertilizer) is the same type of P cation which comes from chemical P ferts. The inorganic P fraction (from organic fert) in the picture I made is plant available, that is how the plants 'feed'.

some missing perspective here: time. In active soil with lots of predation and cycling, available nutes can't wash away because they are a valuable resource to the soil life (they are in competition as well as cooperating; alliances of convenience) and thus are never left to just float around.

Yes and no to my understanding. I mentioned as much previously (re: glomalin, bio-film, storage in live microbes, CEC, etc), however, some P is 'just floating around' in the rhizosphere, and elsewhere.

If nothing grabs it, diffusion takes over and takes it to something that will.

Not necessarily, in my understating, but I am a bit confused. What is an example of "something that will", other microbes?

By the time water arrives to wash it away it is sequestered - in the bank.

I do not agree. Besides, water doesn't wash it away the same way water would wash away P from 'inert' media feed chemical salts. Do you have references or something else I can look into?

Edit: In short - assume the plant needs 100 moles of x over 24 hours or it dies. If it lives, do we assume 100 moles of x were available concurrently and for the entire 24 hours?

No, not in my opinion. And it doesn't seem like that example takes into account immobile nutrients...?

pic won't work

Still? It works for me.

but I can only say that by using blood meal, bone meal, and kelp meal with only a little fish hydrolysate (plus biotone which is where I get my root fungus - it has feathermeal, greensand, cocoa meal, and some other goodies), my plant got enough P to grow good roots

I bet They sound like they would be happy.

...had Fungal interaction, and got good buds.

The issue is what type of fungi interaction. With the plant you mean? Honestly, I find it hard to believe the AM fungi would thrive, or even have much infection at all with all those quickly available sources of P depending upon application rates...

What I do not plan on adding more bone meal or blood to the soil for a good many grows, and I rest it with some unfinished worm castings on top that contains wigglers and cocoons. I'll let you know what I see.

Cool.

This all begs the question: how do natural mycorhizae survive a large animal marking event? There is tons of P in ionic form, as well as urea and all the rest in urine. The plant can shut down N uptake apparently, but how does the root fungus survive?

I don't know how to answer that. But they do.

later

 

[ganja din]

shit that's cool ganja. I wish I were in a position to get a microscope and go microscoping with you. I have too much shit as it is.

Thanks, I thought so too I may try to repeat their experiment. I have all the tools already from my mycology work (ie. agar, petri, glove box, etc), and I can make the MM (Minimal Media) agar mix the author used. The MM agar mix is simple, but the author mentioned they tweaked theirs, I'll copy what they did. But I doubt it would be any time soon...

If you are interested I can give you the URL of where I got my microscope. The guy who makes them is top notch microscopist and (self taught) horticultural microbiologist. It is for sure the best deal you can find, and it's great microscope, esp. when considering the price. It is said to be better than the Lecia CME microscope which is almost twice as expensive!

Later

 

[ganja din]

The ground has a maze of fungus that inhabits it, the fungus is specific to different plants, trees, etc.

If you are referring to AM fungi then yes, they can be a maze under the ground. But most species of AM fungi can form a mycorrhiza association with most any mycorrhizal host plant. Some AM fungi require specific mycorrhizal host plants but it think that's the exception, not the rule.

different types of fungus can work together in a symbiotic way to help themselves and the plants they interact with.

If you are referring to AM fungi and “anastomoses” (ie. hyphal fusing) then no. Not as far as I have read. For anastomoses to occur in AM fungi all fungi involved must be the same strain (aka isolate), not just the same species. Other species of fungi (non AM) can carry out anastomoses between two different races, variates and isolates. In fact, I have been researching, and plan to use rattlesnake venom infused agar (eg. "venomized agar" from Sigma) to facilitate intraGenus breeding (P.cubensis x P.mexicana) via. isolate hyphae anastomoses. The same has already been accomplished with two hallucinogenic fungi (intraFamily!) using the same venomized agar. And AlohaMedicinals were the fist ones to pioneer this method by intraFamily (or was it intraGenus?) breeding of two medical fruing fungi.

they come in many flavors and can be both good and bad.

What do you mean by "they come in many flavors"? Do you mean different AM species, or AM fungi and ecotomycorrhizal fungi?

What do you mean by "good and bad"? If you are referring to AM fungi then no, I do not know of an instance where they are 'bad'.

the total extent of their interaction is not fully understood.

True. But 'they' and 'we' are getting there. I am looking forward to working with AM fungi on agar! But, 'we' do have a pretty good idea of most interactions and limits, though new things are learned all the time. AM fungi is one of the most studied non-fruiting fungi I know of...

specific strains can be very beneficial

No, I would not agree with that. See my first paragraph in this post. I think the problem is a nomenclature issue:

• species = G.mosseae (AM fungi)
• strain/isolate/clone = a specific individual fungus within a community of the same species. Note that for something to be a "strain" it has to be living, this is true for fungi or plants. I have long argued about the nomenclature cannabis breeders use (in horticulture, a synonymous term is "varietal" or "strain")
• sub-species/race/variety/sub-variety = Different 'types' of populations within the same species. Usually divided by phenotype and genotype, and originally, origin)

While I'm on the topic, without providing a lot of 'proof', which I have, I would like to dispel some inaccurate taxonomy of the Cannabis L. genus. According to traditional taxonomy, including that of the US Gov and all other Gov's, indica and sativa are the same species, but a different "sub-species". In my opinion that is not accurate. My interpretation of current data leads me to firmly believe there are probably ( ) at least three different species of Cannabis spp. ("spp." means "various species name goes here", kind of like X in math):

• Cannabis sativa L. = where ruderalis and all other sub-species, races, etc, of Cannabis spp. are placed.
• Cannabis sativa = The species of sativa, ie. a Thai is a different species than a Hundu-kush.
• Cannabis indica = The species of indica, ie. a Hindu-kush is a different species than a Thai.

FWIW, here is the current, and incorrect, accepted taxonomy of Cannabis spp.: ("subsp." means "sub-species")

• Cannabis sativa L. = where ruderalis and all other sub-species, races, etc, of Cannabis spp. are placed.
• Cannabis sativa L. subsp. sativa = The species of sativa, ie. a Thai is a different species than a Hundu-kush.
• Cannabis sativa L. subsp. indica =T he species of indica, ie. a Hindu-kush is a different species than a Thai.

and are what growers try and find and use to inoculate soils, trying to match up the fungi with the plants needs.

You lost me there. I think my first paragraphs in this thread is applicable.

In the perfect situation the plant determines what it eats and when based upon its needs because everything is available provided the soil web is very healthy.

Yes! With the caveat that the plant is not in total control, the microbes have a say too. And as mentioned, if AM fungi are present, they control the microbes too (via. the "mycorhziosphere", and/or "mycosphere", etc).

I realize this is very simplistic but am i on the right track?
many thanks for any reply.
peace/hh

You are indeed on the right track. Thank you for taking the time to read, and digest what I wrote. . I hope this gets you fixed up.

later

 

[ganja din]

sounds good to me HH except I am not sure the plant demand thing goes the way it is explained to me so far. seems a bit too tidy, and I never find out which nutrients we are talking about and what has been confirmed. It just makes too much sense to be entirely true... know what I mean? it's the narrative that bugs me past a certain point.

scientific terms are overrated. "mycorrhizae": ORIGIN late 19th cent.: modern Latin, from myco- [of fungi] + Greek rhiza ‘root.’

thus: root fungus is a good english word that reaches people ignorant of the subject without extensive knowledge of romance languages or training in the classics or etymology of english words.

while we're on words, this is from a little blurb on AM :

yes, he said "invaginate". you figure it out.

I disagree. Please see this post I made on the topic:
https://icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=2750155&postcount=83

I need a signature...

 

[ganja din]

found these fruiting bodies outside today. they seem to grow along the root lines of a tree stump. it's a goodly stump. should I culture them for my own soils?

Not likely, as they are most likely wood (lignin, cellulose hemicelluose) 'digesters'. And probably some microbes get 'digested' as well. Not many 'known useful' fruiting fungi will grow 'in soil', I think many people have the misconception.

 

[ganja din]

I used mike this year and had good results in the ground.

How do you know the AM fungi germinated and infected the roots?...

 

[ganja din]

Now that is a word to remember or maybe forget, invaginate! wow
seems like a great deal of what is discussed regarding the mike's is an evolving science. the more i read about it the more i realize i don't know
much and even those that do don't necessarily agree.

haha, so true. But debating is phun

Does the fungus need to be established before the application of ACT?

No, that should not effect anything. In fact it may help. It has been found that certain bacteria actually 'eat' the outer layer of AM fungi spores. Some researchers think this facilitates the spore germination. And there are really cool *intracellular* bacteria which live inside AM fungi mycelium, and maybe hyphae!

without the Fungus properly established is the application of ACT
worthless?

Not in the least. Many microbes in the ACT can/do solublize phosphors and many other minerals, like AM fungi. And durning microbes solublization of the P they make it available to the roots, they just don't inject like AM fungi.

AM fungi are only a tool in the box, not the box itself.


hth

 

[ganja din]

I was thinking the same thing. I just got up for something to drink and .........read part of this thread. Now I will never get back to sleep...................thanks guys and gals.

V

haha, sorry!

 

[ganja din]

There are lots of edible fungi that grow off of dead or decaying trees, and lots of edible fungi that grow off of wood chips and wood debris Oyster, Shitakke, Chicken of the woods, Hen of the woods, the list goes on.

IMO they would not be useful to growing cannabis.

I am trying to grow mushrooms in my medium, and I have found quite a few species growing out of the horse dung outside, even one hallucinogenic species.

Why? The problem with growing 'shrooms' indoor is they need a RH around 85-95%, depending upon casing, etc.

hth

 

[ganja din]

I would agree with that. A stand alone Sticky in the Reference thread on organics.



V

Great, me too. Are you a moderator?

Thanks

 

[ganja din]

OK, phew!

I think I've responded to all the posts which I should have. Time to go screw the dogs and walk the girlfriend...what...what?...I must be tired, lol.

Thanks to those who gave positive vibes and contributed to this thread thus far. I hope it continues growing

GD

 

[maryjohn]

IMO they would not be useful to growing cannabis.


Why? The problem with growing 'shrooms' indoor is they need a RH around 85-95%, depending upon casing, etc.

hth

That's what I go for when I rest my soil. And I could use some digesters, not to mention a bio indicator that my ventilation is off.

I'm thinking we could satisfy some requirements by layering our soil instead of mixing, and keeping bone and blood applications confined. Just like in nature.

 

[quadracer]

IMO they would not be useful to growing cannabis.

Yeah, I was providing examples of edible mushrooms that grow on dead or decaying trees.

Why? The problem with growing 'shrooms' indoor is they need a RH around 85-95%, depending upon casing, etc.

hth

I'm not talking about indoor, although I did say medium. All my pictures are from outdoors. I'm much more interested in growing cannabis and mushrooms outdoors, though some of my plants are in pots and not in the soil, in which case it is a medium.

It's going to take me a day to read through all your posts, but lots of good information! I have a bunch of questions already and have only been through the first page, guess that happens when you get in a thread this late.