Open discussion on advanced techniques and their benefits.

[BurnOne]

The bottom line is this...
Do you actually see any increase in yield or health of the plant with advanced organic grow options over the simple and easy methods for beginners.
I don't want theory or hope so, guess so. I want proof.
Anybody up to this one?
Burn1

 

[cellardweller]

this has been a question on my mind for sometime now, B1.
I see growers that feed feed feed, but then I see guys who are doing just as well amending their soil properly and just watering through flower maybe with compost/EWC tea, if at all in some cases.

 

[maryjohn]

I think to have real proof you need to measure brix.

Anything else is just subjective.

Can brix even be measured in MJ? Maybe you have to run it through a juicer?

 

[jaykush]

B1...what would you consider advanced techniques? really with organics one thing can be simple, yet be more complex than anything else. compost tea for example. it can be as simple as putting compost in a bucket with water and aerating, or on the other side it could be specific ratios and percentages of ingredients brewed for certain lengths of time which is much more complex. do they both work, yes. might one work better because of the special care, yes. what methods have doubt in your mind, maybe we can fix that.

this has been a question on my mind for sometime now, B1.
I see growers that feed feed feed, but then I see guys who are doing just as well amending their soil properly and just watering through flower maybe with compost/EWC tea, if at all in some cases.

thats because there is hundreds of ways to grow with organic soil and still be getting top notch results. what works for someone might not work for you and your area or climate, you might not have access to the same materials as others. most do best with what they got. some grow in the ground outdoors, some grow in micro pots inside. find what works best for you with what you got and im sure youll have top quality cannabis in no time.

maryjohn, brix can be measured with cannabis just like any other plant you would measure. i wouldnt use that to determine how healthy a plant is though. just a guide.

 

[maryjohn]

yeah, I just looked it up and there is a thingy that doesn't measure brix per se, but gives a close enough result that it is interchangeable with results from specific gravity measurements. Also an infra red device that measures actual sugar content.

So what would you use as a quantifiable measure of plant health? Yield is less interesting, because what i'm after in a grow is quality nugs I couldn't get from a dealer. Appearance is subjective, and pests can be luck of the draw or environmental.

I think if we are comparing methods, we also have to account for light. When I grow outside, or in my veggie gardens, the biggest factor by far is hours of direct sun when the sun is brightest.

 

[habeeb]

I think this really can't be answered as you can see in the human timeline we have only gotten dumber, so I think many advancements are not discovered yet as people are not opening themselves to new thinking... we have yet to come up with new methods / systems / ideas to push growing further from what we have now.


this might not be considered advanced at all, but I have seen the most change from using teas, I had a time lapse camera setup and boy did the tea make them shoot off.. I'm also trying to see if fulvic acid does anything I can visually see, but I'm a novice gardener so..


what I want answered is I read sugar ( molasses ) pulls the water our of microbes when soil is dry, so seems to me we might be counter-productive when using molasses ???

 

[lidspinner]

I think this really can't be answered as you can see in the human timeline we have only gotten dumber, so I think many advancements are not discovered yet as people are not opening themselves to new thinking... we have yet to come up with new methods / systems / ideas to push growing further from what we have now.


this might not be considered advanced at all, but I have seen the most change from using teas, I had a time lapse camera setup and boy did the tea make them shoot off.. I'm also trying to see if fulvic acid does anything I can visually see, but I'm a novice gardener so..


what I want answered is I read sugar ( molasses ) pulls the water our of microbes when soil is dry, so seems to me we might be counter-
productive when using molasses ???

I have been trying to read and come up with a good answer to that....I have talked with some old growers who swear by it but they have no facts, but they do have quality grown herb for evidence.....I have spoken to a few people that run a nursery and grow flowers.....they swear by organic tea's, but they are not fans of using molasses.....when I asked, their answer was simply.."I tried it and it made no difference at all"....so we have alot of theories but no proven results......I would love to sit here and tell you that I will do a comparison grow but I will keep it updated for a few weeks then I will forget to or get lazy and not keep it updated. Maybe I'll try this winter when things slow down.

For the record, I am starting to make my tea's without the use of molasses and use them for one of my outdoor crops just to see what happens.

 

[DocLeaf]

We get very good results from shop bought soil mixes (bio biz, plagron, atami).
Making homemade soil mixes is much more rewarding but yields are slightly smaller on average.

 

[JackTheGrower]

I think to have real proof you need to measure brix.

Anything else is just subjective.

Can brix even be measured in MJ? Maybe you have to run it through a juicer?

I have a brix thing I haven't tried yet.. LOL Who else?

 

[jaykush]

for those who dont know, the plant makes its own sugars to feed the microbes, via photosynthesis. molasses is good in compost teas. it doesn't do harm as a soil drench thats, but its not responsible for vigorous growth or "improved taste in buds"

I think this really can't be answered as you can see in the human timeline we have only gotten dumber, so I think many advancements are not discovered yet as people are not opening themselves to new thinking... we have yet to come up with new methods / systems / ideas to push growing further from what we have now.

i agree we have gotten dumber ( anyone seen the movie idiocracy? ) when it comes to our soil and agriculture. but we have made advancements people 1000 years ago couldnt even dream of ( even if we sacrificed something else). those methods you think we dont have are being thought up and tested everyday. here and all around the world. dont give up just yet.

i still cant think of how to define advanced techniques, most of what is considered advanced should common knowledge.

 

[JackTheGrower]

B1...what would you consider advanced techniques?


.....


that's because there is hundreds of ways to grow with organic soil

Agreed..

To test any system the conditions need to be standard as well.

What would we want.. The same genetics maybe, the same amount of time, and some measure of result.. Weight, taste effect and so on..

It would be interesting to be able to challenge organic growers by having them grow the same beans and then get together and share notes and compare produce..

So about that Brix.. I remember some threads on it..

 

[K.J]

I personally am having great success keeping it simple. I use LC's #1 with the dry ferts recipe and then water with a little LK and maybe molasses the entire rest of the cycle. It's worked well for me so far, though admittedly I'm only on my second grow...ever. I'll let you know if I ever try more advanced methods, but for now simple is sublime.

 

[jaykush]

Agreed..

To test any system the conditions need to be standard as well.

What would we want.. The same genetics maybe, the same amount of time, and some measure of result.. Weight, taste effect and so on..

It would be interesting to be able to challenge organic growers by having them grow the same beans and then get together and share notes and compare produce..

if anyone's going to be doing any testing they should be using clones. the genetic variations in seeds could sway results. trust me ive been there.

i dont see how that would identify "advanced" methods though.

 

[One Love]

Upon first reading Burn1's original post I was thinking "Advanced Techniques" to be something along the lines of suppercropping, fim, or LST.

However, I have noticed a few members trying the amended coco over a small aerated reservoir 'thing'. That, to me, would be advanced organics, because it goes beyond my typical thoughts on orgaincs and the soil food web. I love growing with organics and keeping it simple allows me to understand more of what is going on as opposed to running a complex system that can have problems related to a variety of different issues.

Anyone else on what would be considered advanced?

 

[VerdantGreen]

not sure what brix is, but whilst i wouldnt sacrifice any quality or pick strains to increase yeild, i would say g/watt must be one of the best measures of the efficiency of an indoor garden.

i would possibly put myself up as someone who doesnt use many advanced techniques but enjoys (so far) a very successful garden with yeilds of well over 1g/watt. my last run 0f 4 plants averaged 1.16g/watt with the best being 1.33g/watt. These are yeilds using simple organics that would stand up well to hydro or chem as far as i know.

imo the biggest factors determining the performance of a garden are the most simple
1. distance of buds from the light - the more buds at the optimum distance, the more big buds you get (i use modular scrog - 4 plants each on a square foot screen)
2. size of pots - use the biggest you can fit in your garden
3. decent veg time.

my soil mix
3 parts peat
2 parts topsoil
3 parts perlite
1 part wormcasts
1 part mushroom compost

powdered dolomite lime @ 5g/litre
N guano at 5g/litre
P guano at 10g/litre
rock phosphate at 5g/litre
rock potash at 2.5g/litre
seaweed meal @ 5g/litre

i use water pH'd to 6 ish , some biobizz bloom if they need it, no teas, no molasses. My leaves are fully yellow/dead by harvest.
i dont remove leaves very much at all-dont beleive in it.

i can post some pics if you like but i already posted one yesterday and dont want to look like a show-off

best

V.

 

[JackTheGrower]

if anyone's going to be doing any testing they should be using clones. the genetic variations in seeds could sway results. trust me Ive been there.

i don't see how that would identify "advanced" methods though.

Being expert on soil almost means a college degree and access to advanced machines to test things.

What would be common techniques?

From what i remember of my organic soil gardening of old.. Advanced techniques ofter were "wild ideas" such as using left over Soda pop or other strange concepts.

Advanced: Definitely proper tea making. Perpetual soil would be another.
Composting qualifies IMO. "Wild ideas" would too.

Common: Soil mixes, feeding, watering, trimming/training...

Organic soil/gardening it a life style. I was smitten at the age of four when I would help my Father in the garden.
Learning to grow in other ways I know I must do but, Organic soil has heart.

When i think of Advanced I think of taking the ordinary and achieving the extraordinary.
Taking a pile of dung and harvesting great bud!

I guess Advanced techniques then equal experience and wisdom. Like the Grandfather in the Garden growing food for the family with the basics of nature like compost and rock dust.

That's all I can think of atm.. I'll give it some thought but my "cannabis breeders bible" just came!

 

[maryjohn]

well said, Jack.

 

[Clackamas Coot]

The bottom line is this...
Do you actually see any increase in yield or health of the plant with advanced organic grow options over the simple and easy methods for beginners.
I don't want theory or hope so, guess so. I want proof.
Anybody up to this one?
Burn1

BurnOne

I generally don't weigh my medicine once it's been dried and cured so I probably won't be too much help with the parameters set out in your post.

What I can say is that the health of my MMJ garden is far better using straight organic growing methods vs. the grow store paradigm, i.e. FFOF, Tiger Bloom, et al.

Same with our organic raised beds for a couple of farmer's markets in the area. Better tasting produce, healthier plants, brighter colors, etc.

HTH

CC

 

[BurnOne]

What I'm trying to get at here is, do you get healthier plants and/or bigger yields if you add more to your garden than peat/compost/dolomite/perlite/meals/guano? Whatever your "advanced" method is.
I've done some research on grow lights. What I found was that the cheap Home DePOT HPS lights give just as much yield as the Hortilux bulbs. I found no difference at all despite all the light spectrum data and hype the Eye Hortilux manufacturers were claiming.
Many people called me crazy even though nobody but me had done side by side test grows using the bulbs I tested.
So, are you sure your study and data actually result in any noticeable benefit? If so, post your method and results.
I'd really be interested in a blind study if anyone has the time and room to do some testing.
Burn1

 

[habeeb]

^ I would love for someone to get down and do some actual testing also. would be nice if someone went all out and answered alot of our thoughts / questions once and for all by use of time lapse camera and clones

I have said, I have a time lapse video of some plants before and after compost tea from KIS, and boy did it shoot them up very quick after the tea

I also have seen benefits from EM-1 , rare earth , and am looking at fulvic acid and seems my cucumber plant liked it very much but all I'm growing right now is DJ, and his plants grow to slowwww to see any difference. I have heard CMH growing plants quicker in veg do to higher levels of blue then even the hortilux blue, I had some mental floss that took off like a rocket under them, yet to see it in flower though


but to me, advanced topics would be use of colors ( like tomatoes growing better with red ) , shape/material of pots , humic/fulvic acid with clones, music, and other things our brains can't even begin to comprehend like along the lines of pots that inject oxygen to roots / a strain of bacteria people have yet to make...


I once had 4 females that I messed up really bad when I was more of a noob then I am now, and they all came out female and I swear it was because my rudra veena music. I had the PH at 9, small small pots, hot hot temps, no humidity, nute defficencies...

if you want to read more on off topic ideas check out the secret life of plants book/ the enlivened rock powders book, and this guy's books seem worthy to check out : Sir Jagadis Chunder Bose