Can any Breeder/pheno hunter explain to me WTF is going on??
- Thread starter little-soldier
- Start date
Seed plants often look a bit different and have different growth habit to clones of the same plant.. probably because seedplants have a taproot (the first strong root from the seed) and clones don't.
Clones are genetically identical to the mother plant they are taken from. Viruses i think are unlikely. (chem D leaf streak is NOT a virus)
'Phenotype' is the expression of the genetics within its environment... so if the way you grow the clones is different (temp/humidity/light/nutrition) this may cause them to grow differently from their parents.
Phenotype can change with environment... Genotype doesn't change, so the same clone can express in different phenotypes in different environments even though it is genetically identical.
VG
Clones are genetically identical to the mother plant they are taken from. Viruses i think are unlikely. (chem D leaf streak is NOT a virus)
'Phenotype' is the expression of the genetics within its environment... so if the way you grow the clones is different (temp/humidity/light/nutrition) this may cause them to grow differently from their parents.
Phenotype can change with environment... Genotype doesn't change, so the same clone can express in different phenotypes in different environments even though it is genetically identical.
VG
One way to remove the 'perceived' variable would be to grow the seed plant, sex it, take clones and discard the seed plant, and flower clones instead of the seed plant. Then you will know more quickly if you are going to like the clones or not.
All that said, i grow lots of seed plants and clones of the seed plants and never find that they are really much different from each other.
VG
All that said, i grow lots of seed plants and clones of the seed plants and never find that they are really much different from each other.
VG
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right
Active member
Yeah man, once you scale up to tens of thousands of cuts per round, it becomes quickly obvious somethings up..especially when you have mothers of different ages of same cut..Once one starts testing its quickly clear whats up. What I've noticed 100%, is fusarium and hlvd go hand in hand, and as well, root aphid. The one will spread the other, which will spread the other. I can recall specific instances now over the last 4 years, maybe 3 times where I saw that clearly with hindsight...They have now found in study that the viroid can be carried in fusarium spore, and it is already known that fusarium can carry it inside its mycelium and infect plants, making them easier to infect again in the future with a compromised immune system. Its like when I nearly died from TB many moons ago, it wasn't the TB, it was a thrush I caught while surfing a polluted spot, that ended up with the docs clearing out a wing of a hospital to quarantine me, thinking it was ebola the way it was eating my flesh, until they figured I had TB and no immune system, treated the TB and skin infection was gone in a matter of days. Which also shows, without proper diagnosis, you are shooting in the dark.
We were lucky here as there was no facility in our country for testing when we began, we had had local uni students doing their post grad research by us, borrowing some greenhouse space we weren't using and in the end a professor of plant pathology and virrii came to our rescue, repaying the favour we had done them, was about 3 years back, he got all the proper reagents and stuff needed, they already have the hardware at the uni for PCR, and he ran some samples of dud plants for us..Sky high hlvd...We then began testing our mom stock of seeminly unaffected stuff, some positive some negative, but was leaf tests. We then started testing any material we were bringing in from overseas..all positive. We then started testing material we had sourced locally, all infected. All heirlooms infected. Testing plants from seed, all infected except a % of them depending on the batch of seed the plants came from. We then tested roots of mothers, all infected..We then gave up testing over a year back, there was no point, one just had to manage the disease. Till now, when we have clean material to work with..
Here are two more pics of a different clone, both infected, higher load, and lower load. This variety is not affected as much as others, bud quality still good, marginal drop in cannabinoids, but severe loss of yield as load gets higher..from 30-40% on low load, to 70% on higher load.
Same clone, both infected...pic on left low viral load, cannot see effects, bud on right has higher load, you can see it compared to the lower load, though doesnt look bad..Weight of plant on left 2/3 of what it would be uninfected, plant on right 1/3 of uninfected mass I'd guess.
This has been ravaging the hops industry since the 80's SamS and others reported they had encountered reported unknown infectious agents that acted just like it, early 80s..If you read up on how it did, and still does affect the hops industry you will see we are just on a parallel, but playing catch up. By the time they woke up in 80s/90s in hops, it was in every supply nurseries stock, tested across continents, in almost all of the stock, all of the mother fields, all of the production fields from USA to all over europe, china, and UK, weed has been on the same road but we been ignorant of the path we're on..The hops farmers are lucky as it doesn't affect yield as much as weed, and also there are no cannabinoids in hops so that unaffected, terpenes affected to some degree. Weed is affected worse. But this is no conspiracy, we are just late to the party.
Yeah ...false positives can happen im sure..but we not found..false negatives we had many, but that was down to the clone and where we took the material from to test..do numbers and patterns becomes clear, when we tested roots, it was all positive..All positives we found were strong positives, one can get an idea of how infected a plant is and we got results in the high to extreme range when we got our positives. The positives were all properly infected. Though some infected plants can test negative in leaf samples. But if also they were on 50/50 range of accuracy, then PCR would not be the gold standard in testing? I'm no expert, just thinking about it..it is not 100% accurate of course..but one clearly sees the patterns. testing clean stuff you dont pick up positives in general. The results would be previously skewed by testing individual plants too, and one getting hits and misses, and leaf, but these days they recommending to pool results to figure out where requires further testing, and roots which are spot on with regards to results. If its there, there tends to be more than enough withing 2 weeks of rooting, in the roots to amplify to get strong positives. So it has its disadvantages, but it is for sure a useful tool to use to help navigate the polluted waters.
I agree let a plant mature 1st.
@Loc Dog
Yesh, actually probiotics are great with coco / synthetics since its such an abiotic environment. Sterile environments spread pathogens faster than an environment that has any microbes. So, any diversity in microbes is better than no microbes. Hospitals have been battling crazy drug-resistant microbes because they tried to make sterile environments for so long.
And some probiotics help as basically PGRs that increase vigor and yield, and potency, without the risk of cancer from synthetic PGRs
Yesh, actually probiotics are great with coco / synthetics since its such an abiotic environment. Sterile environments spread pathogens faster than an environment that has any microbes. So, any diversity in microbes is better than no microbes. Hospitals have been battling crazy drug-resistant microbes because they tried to make sterile environments for so long.
And some probiotics help as basically PGRs that increase vigor and yield, and potency, without the risk of cancer from synthetic PGRs
Spot on, buddy.
Regarding the comorbidity of HLVD and Fusarium,
I've seen the fall of the dominoes in action having been able to do big numbers in many different locations with many different methodologies.
What dictates so much - plant health/resistance/metabolism - is the mineral balance. In the same philosophy as Michael Astera and a great book called Turning Stone Into Bread.
And its not just about having adequate levels of minerals - the ratio is the most important. Take a pheno-plastic strain like Sour D and grow the clones in same setup but each one gets a different ratio of minerals. It will look like different strains.
But more important than looks, this mineral balance effects the soil/media and plant metabolisms and steers the influence of microbial colonies.
If the minerals are wrong, then the soil, roots, and plant are more prone to pathogens. Metabolic functions cant be completed and the plant's autoimmune system shuts down.
Next domino to fall is biota / microbes.
Many bugs are steered by mineral content. Too much nitrogen and not enough calcium and silica, now you got mites.
And then you get septoria, PM, fusarium, etc because the lack of an immune system and a failure of establishing and maintaining probiotics.
Then secondary metabolites get screwed.
Potency, genetic stability in the plant itself and its progeny if breeding.
As for testing,
Have you found any discrepancy in leaf vs root testing?
Medical Genomics shared a finding this past summer that only about 5-20% of infected plants popped hot on a leaf test, compared to 80% or better doing a root test.
Maybe its just causality, but, anyone else remember Dark Heart Nursery starting up.
Then all these plant health problems spread like wildfire through the industry?
Just kidding
Then all these plant health problems spread like wildfire through the industry?
Just kidding
I did one season surrounded by old heirloom vineyards in Solano / Napa region.
Learned a Lot from those old families.
One thing they told me was how China develops messed up microbial pathogens to mess with the vast spectrum of American agriculture.
They told me about the fungal pathogen that nearly wiped out the wine industry.
Now, they all have to graft onto a rootstock of this one strain of grape that is resistant the soil fungus. They didn't say it was fusarium, but that it had a similar double-bonded skeleton that made it near immune to any chemicals theyve tried.
Now with investors in this industry and a bad year no longer being allowed, and the insane numbers that are being planted and clones in the US, we are finding so much data that it's quickly developing out understanding of it all. Pretty rad
Yeah leaf can be hit and miss but if a plant is positive the roots seem to quickly build up enough viroid to amplify and show clearly in PCR. There are 3 mutations appparently, though heat treatment and things like flaming can cause mutations, and standard tissue lab or clean protocols have always used autoclaving and or flaming so the labs that used to supply us were just spreading it, though spreading it to where it was already thick, in hindsight, so relative.. They were probably creating new variants unbeknown to them too LOL..
The most common variant is genetically identical to the main strain in hops, that was sequenced in the 80's I think, so no conspiracy there..Probably came from some hippie composting nettle LOL rather than big evil agri..hahaha
Anyway..I have my weeds diet down for over a decade, I make recipes for a living..more than a decade ago I had the stellar cali plants of mine, chocolope, LA con, go downhill so quickly and it became a struggle to keep them alive, working out calcium ratios, using silica, using what microbes I could to experiment with, I came up with the protocols that I use now which incorporate all of that..these pics I show of side by sides, are using same food, in same environments, the last series of pics, are growing side by side now, in the same greenhouse, all new media, same microbes, from soil to leaf, brews even applied, source water treated with microbial brews, as I have to it is treated sewer water supply basically I have to store in my dams supplied to farmers, and I have my water tested multiple times a year for GMP audits etc..always zero fecal coliforms etc..my bud always tests clean for microbes because of all my good microbes..anyways..I'm doing all these things, then as one does with numbers..you see the pattern of there being another factor out of your seeming control..thats where we were about 3 years ago...then we worked out what it was as all the stuff was coming out from the states, it was the same shit..but 100% I see it now going back over 15 years it was all over already..you guys talk about fusarium wiping guys out mid 2000's, I see hlvd wiping out everyone mid 2000's, every fusarium riddled plant we test was high load viroid, though as said almost no plants root tested were negative for hlvd in all our tests. It is SO prevalent. It has been for so long. Thats my opinion now I have a much clearer picture.
So above is a favorite clone of mine at 4.5 weeks of 8 weeks, this taken recently after I tried chasing the mothers away from the viroid with series of cuttings..and below the exact same clone over 2 years prior with higher viroid load, and in pics below you can see varying degrees of viroid load, though not yet at dudding stage. From crop to crop the change is hardly noticeable, though one gets the variation in plants within blocks, form and height. This is all viroid affecting hormone production to varying degrees with higher or lower load. The stuff below doesn't look half bad, but the difference in frost between above pics and below is noticeable, the shine/whiteness. Bud size/mass affected. If one looks closely one can see the subtle change in leaf structure and nodes and branch angle over time as viral load increases, in pics below compared to above where viral load is very low.
The plants above are growing in the exact same space as below, less light though not optimal light time of the year yet but is already fatter and is a not as far in cycle as pics below but already considerably more resin. Microbes/ipm, media, food and all is the same. Only difference is light and viral load, though pics below are in mid summer and above in springtime but the bud above is better. Temperature are already hot into the 30 degrees celcius. The difference in bud is directly proportional to viral load and nothing else in these pics. Even the pics above are infected! Which also demonstrates how one cannot spot this by eye unless its way too late already and infection had enough time to dramatically affect all production and spread to all plants in parent stock. With hops it was/is exactly the same.
Hope this gives a clear visual representation of what I'm trying to tell you guys..I can't really say more..Seeing is believing, no AI was involved in these pics! hahahaha The last few posts..only difference in pictures is level of viroid, and the only clean plants I took pics of, was the first two pics of mothers looking completely different to other plants I've grown in the last almost 2 decades, posted a few posts back...and though looking like as all the plants I grew before that, 90's early 2000's landraces and dutch hybrids..I'm pretty much out of the conversation after this..its up to you to educate yourself at the end of the day.
The most common variant is genetically identical to the main strain in hops, that was sequenced in the 80's I think, so no conspiracy there..Probably came from some hippie composting nettle LOL rather than big evil agri..hahaha
Anyway..I have my weeds diet down for over a decade, I make recipes for a living..more than a decade ago I had the stellar cali plants of mine, chocolope, LA con, go downhill so quickly and it became a struggle to keep them alive, working out calcium ratios, using silica, using what microbes I could to experiment with, I came up with the protocols that I use now which incorporate all of that..these pics I show of side by sides, are using same food, in same environments, the last series of pics, are growing side by side now, in the same greenhouse, all new media, same microbes, from soil to leaf, brews even applied, source water treated with microbial brews, as I have to it is treated sewer water supply basically I have to store in my dams supplied to farmers, and I have my water tested multiple times a year for GMP audits etc..always zero fecal coliforms etc..my bud always tests clean for microbes because of all my good microbes..anyways..I'm doing all these things, then as one does with numbers..you see the pattern of there being another factor out of your seeming control..thats where we were about 3 years ago...then we worked out what it was as all the stuff was coming out from the states, it was the same shit..but 100% I see it now going back over 15 years it was all over already..you guys talk about fusarium wiping guys out mid 2000's, I see hlvd wiping out everyone mid 2000's, every fusarium riddled plant we test was high load viroid, though as said almost no plants root tested were negative for hlvd in all our tests. It is SO prevalent. It has been for so long. Thats my opinion now I have a much clearer picture.
So above is a favorite clone of mine at 4.5 weeks of 8 weeks, this taken recently after I tried chasing the mothers away from the viroid with series of cuttings..and below the exact same clone over 2 years prior with higher viroid load, and in pics below you can see varying degrees of viroid load, though not yet at dudding stage. From crop to crop the change is hardly noticeable, though one gets the variation in plants within blocks, form and height. This is all viroid affecting hormone production to varying degrees with higher or lower load. The stuff below doesn't look half bad, but the difference in frost between above pics and below is noticeable, the shine/whiteness. Bud size/mass affected. If one looks closely one can see the subtle change in leaf structure and nodes and branch angle over time as viral load increases, in pics below compared to above where viral load is very low.
The plants above are growing in the exact same space as below, less light though not optimal light time of the year yet but is already fatter and is a not as far in cycle as pics below but already considerably more resin. Microbes/ipm, media, food and all is the same. Only difference is light and viral load, though pics below are in mid summer and above in springtime but the bud above is better. Temperature are already hot into the 30 degrees celcius. The difference in bud is directly proportional to viral load and nothing else in these pics. Even the pics above are infected! Which also demonstrates how one cannot spot this by eye unless its way too late already and infection had enough time to dramatically affect all production and spread to all plants in parent stock. With hops it was/is exactly the same.
Hope this gives a clear visual representation of what I'm trying to tell you guys..I can't really say more..Seeing is believing, no AI was involved in these pics! hahahaha The last few posts..only difference in pictures is level of viroid, and the only clean plants I took pics of, was the first two pics of mothers looking completely different to other plants I've grown in the last almost 2 decades, posted a few posts back...and though looking like as all the plants I grew before that, 90's early 2000's landraces and dutch hybrids..I'm pretty much out of the conversation after this..its up to you to educate yourself at the end of the day.
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little-soldier
Active member
You are right my friend. Plus I heard they had lots of fire and legit cuts too... BAIT
Dark hearted MOFO lol
Little soldier, u'r back, U'r the OP so last post, these pics from Medical Genomics' studies ,they have very good youtube videos on the subject. There is one video where they show a study and a plant where the tops had almost double the THC to the lowers, and more terps, hplvd affects the profile of terps too shutting down production of some more than others, that is its' primary effect on hops. The pic above shows the resin glands on a badly affected plant verse healthy and that is the loss of shine, terps and kick in a badly infected plant. The density of glands also affected. It is ugly, and once you start looking for it, you see it everywhere. I'd take the time to watch the videos by medical genomics on the subject, that one pic they have in the one video of the plant where tops are not affected and test negative and lowers positive, and THC and terps affected. That sums up what you are experiencing in one picture, I cannot find it online, you gonna have to watch the tube. Then as you are getting this right from seed, to the first cloning run, it should show you how this is in your seed and in your garden already and once you are onto the second run, or even the first if a long veg period (before hormones even had chance to mature) the plants are most likely infected already and you are seeing the effects already, meaning viroid load already not low.
Paradox808
Member
So what are your thoughts on the seed carrying the plaques?
Oh 100% it does...we were seeing it pop up in freshly germinated quarantined seed so quickly that a lot of seed seemed to have high load off the bat..LOL..the studies by medical genomics showed that clean mother pollinated by an infected male, would have viroid on outside of every seed by the time the seed is ready, even if the seed itself was clean inside. So I think we need to put a lot more thought into how we germinate seeds, to protect that % which is not infected. Latest studies found with mother and father infected the infection rate in seeds went up into the 40% range, though even on the lowest rate where mom was clean and dad dirty, all seeds had viroid on the outside, as said..
Was it you talking about the peanut butter breath? LOL yeah I grew out 3 packs to find something nice...uuuuugh..ugly shit..my mate was commenting today when we were chatting about this and he was like yeah he grew this one pack out and fuck that shit was soooo infected right off the bat, PBB..I laughed to myself. Not to slander the breeder either, no names but there's a swathe of hype breeders that were all the rage 2 years back and now hardly a peep from them, social media is all but crickets chirping..its affecting everyone, all seed co's I reckon each pack is a russian roulette for years more than a decade..even if none were infected how were they harvested? how was the seed separated from the flower, well if one plant was infected and harvested with that equipment then all the seed for some time would have viroid deposited on the outside of unrelated and uninfected batches of seed. If the norm is to plant without bleach cleaning the outside of seed, which is the norm, then its not going to take long till the stuff has spread far and wide and once it starts its everywhere in no time if we were ignorant of it, which we have been. Basically.
So once you germinate seed, if you didnt take precaution to denature viroid on the outside of the seed, then all will germinate and already get infected even at lowest rate of seed infection at 5-10% range. Then water from one plant touching anothers roots so watering seedlings/ clones etc. becomes a nightmare of balancing being practical and being clean. That should be a big wake up call. Once one gets into this and realizes this has been around since the 80's but its the early secretive nature and low numbers of growers and low interconnectedness and hoarding not sharing of cuts that stopped its spread, and only the blowing up of weed growing andsharing genetics in vegetative form, that would be responsible for spreading it, its like a ticking time bomb, once it starts spreading its all over very quickly. The odds of not being infected are very very low, and the odds of having most to all plants in your garden infected for most growers, is very high.
If one thinks about it, for a clone nursery to stay clean, they would have to take great precautions, test all incoming material, and quarantine, and retest, and have sealed rooms, strict protocols, and have to go to great lengths to procure clean cuts in the first place to mother up. It is a lot to ask for, for most. All non states clone suppliers, every variety we tested was dirty. If I look at the states..if its too much of an ask for Dark Heart, then what about the small guys...how many clone suppliers can guarantee their stuff with testing documentation and how many are going to great lengths to keep clean or even make sure that they are clean. Sure some are, they will take over once word gets out.
I think if growing from seed, in the field every year and keeping seeds from only most vigorous mothers and allowing the most vigorous males to make it, then I think I'd guess one would breed away from it within a few generations, if one was cleaning the outside of seed before planting, or if seed sat for long enough for outside viroid to break down. Its all a numbers game. I think that is why I see it in african fields long ago in hindsight I think, even landrace fields, but not affie fields..In africa they are much more prone to leaving males to make seed and then just growing what comes up next season from last seasons seed that fell to the ground. In that case load would just climb till always half the field is reasonably dudding or nearing it, while other half only infected later you not see it. Its all very interesting to think about this all for me. How long has this been around for. I'm also interested in which other crops carry it, hops, nettle we know of, what about grapevine, or other similar plants like african hemp or also amarynth..etc..? I am very curious. Also i shudder to think of what the weed industry might have already done or will do, in mutating it, through heat treatment and autoclaving or flaming, which can make new variants, they've done it in lab, that can be infectious towards otherwise safe crops, like strawberries, or tomatoes etc. Imagine if this hit other major food crops, be a nightmare.
Paradox808
Member
I'm a farmer by day. My biggest worry is a transmutation and it breaking out into my yard. We have a trema tree here closely related to hemp. Ick. I use it as a chop n drop for mulch in my bioremediation exponential orchard. Agroforestry baby.
But back so the sickness. I was the one about the PBB. My buddy claims it was made via vitro and sent from Cali. In my heart I believe they were sick from the get go. This is really fascinating for me because I have a passion for banana and there is a different virus called Banana Bunchy Top. So this cannabis stuff his me harrrddd.
But back so the sickness. I was the one about the PBB. My buddy claims it was made via vitro and sent from Cali. In my heart I believe they were sick from the get go. This is really fascinating for me because I have a passion for banana and there is a different virus called Banana Bunchy Top. So this cannabis stuff his me harrrddd.
i.love.scotch
Active member
You've said multiple times that NObody seems to experience the same as you. That the clones are different than the seed plant.
I don't know where you get that from. It's pretty well documented and as far as I know almost Everybody experiences that the clones are different than the seed plants. There is so much information about this out there.
It is so well known that nany people who are serious about pheno hunting don't even run the seed plants and only run the clones since then they know what they will be working with for real as they continue to clone the line.
Now what your saying about the clones being worse, well that's subjective. They are usually just different. Could be better could be worse. Just depends on the genetic.
Usually clones flower faster and are a bit more potent in my experience. But it's different for every genetic, how the clones translate from the seed plants. Some are very similar some are very very different.
And from then forward the successive clone generations should be very similar to each other. As you said your experience is.
From everything you said your experience seems to line up just fine with what's very well documented and generally known.
And there has been some great and very interesting info in this thread. So thank you for starting it. I had heard about and considered seed plant maturity before but hadn't done a deep dive on it yet
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