Can any Breeder/pheno hunter explain to me WTF is going on??

[maryjaneismyfre]

So when last did you see a mother with growth structure like the first pic, once you start taking her down for clones? All varieties in this room are doing this. Clean of virus/viroid/crap/systemic fungus etc.. nothing holding back hormone production, especially IAA for apical dominant growth.
Then next sealed room of clean moms, didnt get chance to cut them back for first cut, left them for a week after they could have had the first topping, 8 days to be exact..now look at them...over 4 foot tall..3 feet growth in just over a week, when last your moms explode like that. Lights are at 70% as far as I can remember. Every variety has exploded like that.

When last did your plants act like this? As for me I'm reckoning prior to 2004/5..that was the last time I saw plants like this.

 

[maryjaneismyfre]

This is 4 plants of same clone. Plant one and two out block of freshest mothers, lowest viral load. Plant 3 and 4 same clone, off older moms higher viral load. Look like different strains..They are in high light area of greenhouse, on tables side by side. Same everything else. Form of bud altered significantly with viroid on this particular cut. This a different clone to pics in the 2 further posts below. Look at how the first two plants here look identical, and the next two completely different, but identical to each other. The only variable is age of mother plant as most likely all came off different mothers as I have two blocks of moms, one from the cuttings from the first but very young mothers and other block of older moms and the cuttings from each block of moms were trayed separately and planted next to each other so its like you looking at one strain and another next to it, blocks of each, but the tags are the same and if you smell them they are the same, the only actual variable is level of viroid load in the roots of the mother plants which was here determined by age. Neither of the two are high load yet but difference is well noticeable already.

 

[maryjaneismyfre]

These pics are all at almost 5 weeks into flower, just over 4,5 weeks in. Below pics I'll post are all of the same clone.

From cuts from clean moms, most likely infected now but not enough time passed to show any effects, to very low load, to low load, to medium load and high load. None of these are yet what one would consider a true dud when the cannabinoid % drops to half or less, the extreme load. I have though pics of those plants if I dig, they are ugly ,I don't even want to look at them.

First two pics are lowest load plants in the series of pictures, happen to be in the most shaded part of greenhouse, so some of the most affected plants are bud from old mothers that I put out to pasture as was short few clones, on table next to it barely a meter away..same media, same size pot, same food same same same..same clone..all these pics below are same clone but I took pics of plants showing viroid, or plants in blocks that are where for example from fllowering out old moms, where in the plants you can see subtle differences. The resin, less and less and less, and bud size less and less and less, and chlorosis at centre of buds for most affected plants. Most affected plants dud and loose their shine as not enough cannabinoids are made to inflate the gland. There are scanning electron microscope pics online of affected plants glands, you can see exactly there what makes that dull look in the most affected plants. The way the leaflets start folding over each other as opposed to the first two pics. the way the tips of leaflets start to point outwards. The first two plants are most likely infected but not noticebly, the rest are 100% sure infected.

 

[Loc Dog]

Can anyone of you please explain to me why every time i grow seeds and make a clone out of the mother, the clone looks the same as the seedling but The clone NEVER TASTE THE SAME as the seedling? I have tried taking a clone from the top of the plant and also the middle of the plant but the clones always looses its flavor by A LOT making it unrecognisable. Same nutrients, same room. BUT if i make a clone from a clone then they are similar in every aspect but seedlings to clones is my problem.
I always take my clones from seedlings around week 7-9. Thats when they show their sex.
I have spoken to a few people about it and NOBODY can explain it.
Been pheno hunting for a few years now and spent a crap load of money. luckily for me im so picky that i rarely find anything to my likes, but when i do I’m screwed.
There are 2 other things i would also like to try before i give up and that’s growing the plants for like 4 months to make sure the plants are fully mature. and also take multiple clones from the same plant to see if one differs from the other.

Have had that from spider/broad mites ruining entire grows. Does not even smell, when usually can smell GG4 down the road. Have heard HLVD also does that, and 30% of seeds from infected parents carry it.

 

[maryjaneismyfre]

These are all the same clone, I took photos all different ways it is expressing with different levels of viroid, in one pic above there is a bud of quite badly viroid affected that I've pulled next to a bud of less affected to compare, both significantly affected though. You can see the more affected bud ripening prematurely before the less affected one, by a few days. I've often seen it affect a branch and not the rest of a plant. I've had a branch of a plant I've run a hundred thousand plants of and never seen a banana, turn full male on me. Viroid on that branch was through the roof. But that was 2 years ago, had about 3 of those male branches on different strains, we flowered out well over a hundred thousand plants over that season, its a numbers game to spot the really wierd ones..but it correlates to higher viroid load, the more wierder shit we were seeing..like a full blown male branch among 40 000 of a cut flowering in that case..

Above picture is the cleanest block in the greenhouse..lowest to no viroid load. Its a lawn..buds 2-3x as fat as others. Twice the frost of the most affected block of same genetic in the same space. Still most likely infected at this point to illustrate how hard it is to spot, but with the above pic the window of time of infection within the last 6 weeks so viroid levels not yet built up to any significant degree to affect things. The worst affected plants are old moms I put out to pasture, this occurs because the viral load has had time to build up in roots, as you flip to flower the viroid moves up with the sugars from the roots to the growth tips.

You cannot spot it with the eye at low infection level. The effects are subtle and happen over time more and more until shit falls off the cliff..and you are chasing away from higher viroid levels to a degree, but not fully, with rapid summer growth and new roots from fresh moms so you never see the slide backwards constantly as its so slow, until you start approaching the cliff edge..Cuts off 6month or older moms, especially off lower growth, or flowering out same tired old moms, you can see the quality drop, one can almost guarantee its viroid. I can almost guarantee that most homegrowers, all their mom stock will do that.

Pic below is all same clone and all would pass as good bud, still far from mids..but you can see the variation in canopy height, and the uber fat buds and back and smaller ones in front and bottom right corner the most affected cola, while right next to it a fat mofo of a cola, to the untrained eye none of this picture would classify as dud. To me now, I see the loss of yield already across the board. Block above we will measure but to my eye already its a fair % thrown away..Makes me sick when I think of all the time and money I've wasted over the last 2 decades but c'est la vie. Adapt or die.

 

[Thcvhunter]

This has turned into an amazing conversation

The cool thing about this time with Rec rolling out abd getting big funding, is all the numbers we get to run and testing we get to do.
I never would be able to grow out 30k sq ft of seeds and afford all the testing if it was just my backyard.

You're right @maryjaneismyfre that now that we have numbers and the testing to back it up, we are starting to see what really does affect the plant.

What I can spot easiest are buds formations and bud/leaf ratios from effected plants.
A sick plant looks like Cookies compared to OG. Smaller bud clusters lacking density and more sugar leaves than buds, like some Blueberry phenos.
Also, less branching and weaker stems.

Since probiotics became a common tek, we don't really see fusarium pop up much anymore, but holy hell what a problem especially in the 2000's.
Perhaps HVLD and other virals/viroids will lead to the next evolution in grow tek's.

 

[little-soldier]

PCR tests are DUDS. everybody knows that from the last pandemic we had. I grew seeds only for years now and its almost always the same story with mothers and clones. people focus too much on virus now a days, the pandemic really did a number on ya. Pretty sure it has to do with maturity like it was said before. time will tell. i'll be back here with a conclusion when I will have tested this hypothesis but no way im going to grow a seedling one year before I take cuttings. I will do 4-5 months which will equal to the time the seedling had to veg and finish flower. There is no chance in hell that pheno hunters wait years before taking cuttings to preserve genetics or it would have been written in books and that I have read quite a few.

 

[Loc Dog]

This has turned into an amazing conversation

The cool thing about this time with Rec rolling out abd getting big funding, is all the numbers we get to run and testing we get to do.
I never would be able to grow out 30k sq ft of seeds and afford all the testing if it was just my backyard.

You're right @maryjaneismyfre that now that we have numbers and the testing to back it up, we are starting to see what really does affect the plant.

What I can spot easiest are buds formations and bud/leaf ratios from effected plants.
A sick plant looks like Cookies compared to OG. Smaller bud clusters lacking density and more sugar leaves than buds, like some Blueberry phenos.
Also, less branching and weaker stems.

Since probiotics became a common tek, we don't really see fusarium pop up much anymore, but holy hell what a problem especially in the 2000's.
Perhaps HVLD and other virals/viroids will lead to the next evolution in grow tek's.

Fusarium is at epidemic levels with online clone sellers, due to poor cloning procedures. Placed 5 orders in 3 months, all twenty plants had it and died within a day to 45 days of arrival. Do you have any info on probiotics?? Never heard of them for plants, and now am resorting to tissue culturing of bought clones, that I pay to arrive clean, but none have.

 

[Thcvhunter]

Fusarium is at epidemic levels with online clone sellers, due to poor cloning procedures. Placed 5 orders in 3 months, all twenty plants had it and died within a day to 45 days of arrival. Do you have any info on probiotics?? Never heard of them for plants, and now am resorting to tissue culturing of bought clones, that I pay to arrive clean, but none have.

I had fusarium real bad in 2013.
Watched my garden die in about a week, maybe less.
So I did a bunch of research and found two things. One, the government developed strains of fusarium to attack cannabis, coca, and poppy.
Secondly, I came across probiotics.
Namely, lacto bascilus and purple nonsulfur bacteria.
I started using Modern Microbes and EM-1 and never had Fusarium again.
In fact, Ive worked for a couple operations where they were developing fusarium and I was able to remedy the situation with a bottle of EM-1.

No need to tissue culture for fusarium - its merely a fungal infection. PNSB eats fusarium and then establishes a healthy colony of probiotics to exclude any surface area for pathogens to take hold.

For production, I spray EM-1 every 3 days or so. Pretty much any water I use for cloning, watering, feeding, all gets a dose of EM-1.
It will cycle the nutrients in your soil much quicker, so just be aware and you may need to feed sooner than usual. But, that just means bigger plants.

If you check out my Instagram page, I list instructions oh how to make Lacto Bascilus with just rice, water, and milk.

 

[Thcvhunter]

There is no chance in hell that pheno hunters wait years before taking cuttings to preserve genetics or it would have been written in books and that I have read quite a few.

I dont wait years, but I try to wait 8-12 months if I can.

As far as grow books, all of them are geared towards production, not breeding or preservation. And Id say all of them suck.
DJ may be the only one who writes about cool lil tricks to get different or better expressions from a single genotype.

A grower is better off reading the NCBI website than reading a grow book. At least with NCBI you get peer-reviewed science, instead of wook-science geared towards getting the reader to buy the most products at the store all while growing a mediocre product so he's never competition to the big players in the game.


"PCR tests are DUDS. everybody knows that from the last pandemic we had"
True.
I worked in blood labs. PCR's have basically a 50/50 for false-positive and false-negatives, as per the pathologist.

 

[little-soldier]

I dont wait years, but I try to wait 8-12 months if I can.

As far as grow books, all of them are geared towards production, not breeding or preservation. And Id say all of them suck.
DJ may be the only one who writes about cool lil tricks to get different or better expressions from a single genotype.

A grower is better off reading the NCBI website than reading a grow book. At least with NCBI you get peer-reviewed science, instead of wook-science geared towards getting the reader to buy the most products at the store all while growing a mediocre product so he's never competition to the big players in the game.


"PCR tests are DUDS. everybody knows that from the last pandemic we had"
True.
I worked in blood labs. PCR's have basically a 50/50 for false-positive and false-negatives, as per the pathologist.

So true what you said about getting the reader to buy most products and still grow mediocre weed. I have tried almost all nutrients and boosters on the market and it was just all a waste of money because I don't use boosters anymore. None of them boosters ever worked and every liquid fertiliser is weight because everything is derived from salts which means all nutrients are the same. VPD is the key to getting HUGE buds but nobody really talks about it. Buy this.. Buy that..this whole world is a fucking scam and I wouldn't be surprised if it was the government who developped and/or spread the HLV virus. Big brother is on a rampage right now and we just watch it unfold, make jokes,turn the blind eye and hope for a better future as if corruption is just a phase that will eventually stop being trendy and stop growing like a fucking uncontrollable virus.
End of rant.

 

[Loc Dog]

I had fusarium real bad in 2013.
Watched my garden die in about a week, maybe less.
So I did a bunch of research and found two things. One, the government developed strains of fusarium to attack cannabis, coca, and poppy.
Secondly, I came across probiotics.
Namely, lacto bascilus and purple nonsulfur bacteria.
I started using Modern Microbes and EM-1 and never had Fusarium again.
In fact, Ive worked for a couple operations where they were developing fusarium and I was able to remedy the situation with a bottle of EM-1.

No need to tissue culture for fusarium - its merely a fungal infection. PNSB eats fusarium and then establishes a healthy colony of probiotics to exclude any surface area for pathogens to take hold.

For production, I spray EM-1 every 3 days or so. Pretty much any water I use for cloning, watering, feeding, all gets a dose of EM-1.
It will cycle the nutrients in your soil much quicker, so just be aware and you may need to feed sooner than usual. But, that just means bigger plants.

If you check out my Instagram page, I list instructions oh how to make Lacto Bascilus with just rice, water, and milk.

Read about government releasing fusarium to kill outdoor grows several years ago. Probably early steps in creating all fascist owned cannabis growing with GMO's immune to it. Wonder whether these clone sellers are subsidized by corporations/government to wipe out the hobbyists and small/mid size growers. Would not put it past them to create virus that kills people who smoke it, to push corporate cannabis.

Had been researching earlier about probiotics. Can it be used in coco with chemical nutrients??

I tried cloning from 5 infected plants and 2 look great, 1 real good, and 2 obviously fecked. I am not a great grower, but sadly can identify plants with stem canker and spider mites pretty easily.

 

[right]

Evening .may I ask where you are looking for clean new cuts

 

[right]

I mean in general

 

[Loc Dog]

Evening .may I ask where you are looking for clean new cuts

Not sure if that was directed at me. From online vendors since in a fascist state with only corporate cannabis allowed. Strainly and seed canary shipped clones they knew were about to die. Others were LA area and CO.

Have my eyes on mg1brands who has many very desirable strains. He sells snips that ship right away, and clones take over 2 weeks. Worries me that every ad starts off with, that if you buy snips and they do not root he is not responsible. I had mothers sick with botrytis rotting the stalk and took top cuts I thought would be clean and 32 of 33 died since others were ill.

 

[right]

Used to be harbor side.
I've grown many .cuts from harbor side

 

[right]

Idk but it's around. Even if you dont know.no problems

 

[right]

1

 

[Loc Dog]

1

If that is about trying to salvage mothers by cloning, yes, one Fatso survived. Most fell over is a few days. In general, with healthy mothers I get about 23 of 25 success using snypes rockwool tek.

 

[right]

Nah there is a lot enough of Cali clones to get a real nice clone in cali with a Dr I've I can point you as much as the next joe