Ahmar F1 : 60s Panama Red x Chefchaouen 'Sativa' Hashplant

[VerdantGreen]

and plant 4, still has the livelier high and a sweeter, complex high with vanilla and citrus.

VG

 

[VerdantGreen]

HI all, the 2 flowering Ahmar Plants, 4 and 5 (clones of the first 2 glirls) are about 4.5 weeks in.
Here is Red 5 : Red/maroon colour is pretty strong.. seems darker in the smaller nugs atm..

(i pollinated some of the smaller nugs too )

Plant 4 has not turned purple this time because the temps are higher, and it also has some red/maroon bud pigment, but not as pronounced as plant 5

Plant 4

This is a pollinated smaller bud:

VG

 

[Rgd]

this indoor grown Panama red.

forgive me..that looks SO modern hybrid it hurts

 

[island_organics]

forgive me..that looks SO modern hybrid it hurts

You're right, it could pass for a modern hybrid but so could all the other heavily worked landrace varieties out there. Also i think there's a misconception that all landrace plants have a wild, untamed look about them which simply isn't true. I've grown enough P1 landrace stock to know that some plants could easily pass for a modern variety with ample resin and a high calyx to leaf ratio. Sometimes looks can be decieving.

 

[VerdantGreen]

Yes, i agree, It's been interesting to learn about Panama Red - one of the first 'named' varieties of cannabis. It seems that it has always been labelled as '100% sativa' but probably predates the sativa 'stereotype' of narrow leaved, tall stretchy plants.
I would even speculate that, over the years, the lines of Panama red have been selected for those traits because they seemed to be more authentic to sativa, as well as maybe pink pistils because they are so unusual and pretty when the plant is growing.
But the older accounts of PR (including the one that @Raco posted above) often describe short plants with fat leaves, so i don't doubt that it is authentic.
Also the story of the making of this cross describes the selection process, and it could well imply that there was a fair bit of variation in the landrace back then:
"went through a few hundred Panama Red plants and chose 18-20 of the red types that had the smell, structure and bud formation that he liked best"
I would love to have seen that whole population of plants and what the selected and rejected plants looked like!
The 5 new plants have been topped a few days ago... it will be interesting to see how similar they are to the first 5 .
VG

 

[Redrum92]

Yes, i agree, It's been interesting to learn about Panama Red - one of the first 'named' varieties of cannabis. It seems that it has always been labelled as '100% sativa' but probably predates the sativa 'stereotype' of narrow leaved, tall stretchy plants.
I would even speculate that, over the years, the lines of Panama red have been selected for those traits because they seemed to be more authentic to sativa, as well as maybe pink pistils because they are so unusual and pretty when the plant is growing.
But the older accounts of PR (including the one that @Raco posted above) often describe short plants with fat leaves, so i don't doubt that it is authentic.
Also the story of the making of this cross describes the selection process, and it could well imply that there was a fair bit of variation in the landrace back then:
"went through a few hundred Panama Red plants and chose 18-20 of the red types that had the smell, structure and bud formation that he liked best"
I would love to have seen that whole population of plants and what the selected and rejected plants looked like!
The 5 new plants have been topped a few days ago... it will be interesting to see how similar they are to the first 5 .
VG

It's an odd culture, having to justify plants looking like they have been well-selected. Wild plants have merit, sure, but human-selected are better 99% of the time, imho. Genetic preservation is important, but "landrace" is overhyped (and misused) these days.

I personally am loving the way they look. Just because they look like a modern hybrid doesn't mean the high can't be wild!

 

[Rgd]

It's an odd culture, having to justify plants looking like they have been well-selected

It isn’t

And i didn’t ask you to justify

So much sativa that was skinny looking now

Looks hybrid wld

(And if it looks like a duck)

Now people are trying to re write history

In their own image

Enjoy the selection

I am just seeing this more

Have a good one

 

[VerdantGreen]

hi @Rgd , can you explain what you mean please. How are 'people trying to re-write history in their own image'?

The pic that @island_organics posted was PR by State3 who sound like a legit 'boutique' style producer.

VG

 

[island_organics]

A few pics to demonstrate what a landrace variety can look like with minimal work. These plants are a Moroccan x Lebanese F1 hybrid with the Moroccan side being at the P2 stage and the Lebanese at P4. Also these plants are being grown outdoors in Spring so you can imagine how they could express themselves indoors.

 

[island_organics]

@Rgd Also this is a P1 Balkh landrace straight from the fields of Northern Afghanistan, and again grown outdoors. You can imagine how refined plants like these can look with many generations of selective breeding.

 

[Rgd]

hi @Rgd , can you explain what you mean please. How are 'people trying to re-write history in their own image'?

hi bro

Panama is a long flower sativa,
Ag is a long flower skinny sativa,
Malawi is a long flower skinny sativa
..
now I notice they are short and chunky

they were skinny for a reason .......


use the outlier smaller ones..or modify the skinny ones and you have a different high

besides bro ..you know what I mean..

"boutique style”... yeah ok..i guess that’s it

there is a reason people have had to put up with the height and time and indoor unfriendliness

and it had to do with lack of sedation and type of high..

the reason you never saw these “new” I incarnations is not because they couldn't make it earlier , fatter and easier..by selecting shorter earlier ones or crossing them to something else



enjoy the boutiques

 

[OldCoolSativa]

Those plants look nice but they shouldn't in any way be characterized as "sativa." I smoked Panama Red in the 1970s and it was wispy airy flowers with a lot of stems and seeds, very similar in structure to the Mexican and Colombian landrace sativas that were available at the time. It didn't have fat, dense buds like the modern hybrids on display here. As RGD said, tropical landrace sativas have skinny leaves for a reason, and it's related to the environment in which they developed. There's also no way a landrace sativa cross will finish in 10 weeks. I'd expect a '60's Panama Red x "sativa" hashplant would produce a broad sprectrum of phenotypes, much like the original Nl5 x haze, needing 10-18 weeks to finish. The plants you grew don't display the pheno diversity or any sativa characteristics of an F1 BLD x NLD cross.

It looks like yet another fat-leaved Indica-contaminated polyhybrid. The Bubba Kush terpene profile probably makes it smell and taste like a modern polyhybrid. It finished in 10 weeks like a modern polyhybrid. Probably smokes like a modern polyhybrid. Despite the lineage you were told, It's not a sativa, and not an F1 sativa hybrid.

And a 60% germination rate on 40-50 year old seeds? Unlikely under the best of conditions.

You were sold (or gifted) a bill of goods.

 

[VerdantGreen]

Thanks guys, you are entitled to your opinions.
The seeds were gifted, so there was nothing for anyone to gain by telling me they were something other than they are..Really just an afterthought from a guy who i has already done a BIG favour for - i gifted him something that he had been searching 20 years for !
The picture that @Rgd initially commented upon was not even of my plants.
Putting aside for the moment that the Sativa/Indica distinction is nowadays regarded as scientifically meaningless, As we have discussed in the thread, it is hard to be sure what the Moroccan 'sativa hashplant' side of the cross was exactly... but there are a number of very short flowered plants from that region that are still regarded as sativa... Beldia would be one example.
I think the Panama Red side of the cross is confirmed by the coloring of the buds, now seen in both plants when they aren't turning purple from the cold, and Panama Red has plenty of old school descriptions out there that say that the leaves can be wide and the plants short, as well as the high being mellow. The PR seeds for this cross were collected in Panama in the 60's and then a large selection was made for the Parent plants for this cross, and the intention was to improve the bud density and flowering time (amongst other things).
@OldCoolSativa i disagree with your comment that such an F1 would produce a 'broad spectrum of Phenotypes' - i don't see how you could reliably predict that and F1 hybrids are generally used in horticulture precisely because they ARE uniform, and the variation in any F1 would depend on how homozygous the parents were
(your comparison to nl/haze is not a good one because everyone know that haze is not true breeding! ) .. so i don't really see how you can make such a firm prediction. That said, the two females i got so far have a different high, appearance and terpene profile. The bubba kush terp profile that you think is 'like most modern hybrids'... please name some of them so as i can get hold of them!.. from my experience the bubba terpene profile is very rare and only found in the bubba cuts and their S1s, so a lovely surprise to find something with so many similarities here.
Lastly, the germination, I am still getting 90% germination on seeds kept in my freezer for about 20 years.. so i don't think that 60% on seeds twice as old is outlandish. They keep pretty much indefinitely if the moisture content and temp is low enough.
The F2s will be interesting and we will hopefully get to see some soon. Personally i love smoking both plants and get a real kick out of growing these genetics.
VG

 

[Raco]

I remember that I heard many years ago that colombian seeds were taken to Morocco in the 70s in orden to improve the potency of moroccan cultivars.
Clarke says in his book Hashish! that afghan seeds and afghan farmers to tend them were taken to Los Llanos region of Colombia in the 70s.
Sorry if I am going off topic

Quoting myself ^^ lol
FWIW

 

[Raco]

 

[MAHA KALA]

forgive me..that looks SO modern hybrid it hurts

panama red was never pure sativa, it was hybrid, not landrace.. it was known as tequila of herb and gave red eye chill out relax lazy high... the fact.

 

[MAHA KALA]

nice heirloom VG! keep it up.

 

[Raco]

Panama P1 cut

View media item 17568758

 

[VerdantGreen]

thanks guys, for me, whether its 100% 'sativa' or not is interesting but unimportant... - i've never been a sativa elitist or a landrace elitist... i think that kind of snobbery is a bit ridiculous. it is having a nice variety of weeds to smoke that i like best.
What excites me about this Line is the 'story' of it (which i am 100% convinced is true) and that it is an F1 made a long time ago from two proper diverse inbred lines, before they could have been messed about with in a 'modern' sense.. pre-skunk (not that i have anything against skunk either! - tbf it got crossed with everything because it was so good ).

Here are the new plants. 6, 7 and 8. They responded to the topping quite well.

And the slightly taller 9 and 10

VG

 

[Rgd]

. i think that kind of snobbery is a bit ridiculous.

it has nothing to do with snobbery..
it has to do with sedation..I grow both wld and nld ..
one i give away..the other I give 90% away..
I think you can guess which, and why