WTF is w/feminized genetics,

[Raco]

I have seen it before too. But, I think we can all agree that this is not the typical situation in an intersexed cannabis plant. I do not recall for example ever seeing one of those flowers that were viable and produced seed, it may have happened somewhere, but no, this is not normal and therefore I don't think hermaphrodite is the correct term. I don't think we should get hung-up about it, but monoecious is much more correct a term for what we typically refer to as hermies. -T

Agreed
However,bear in mind that that was a primordia.It was removed and after that,the plant was located under natural light and I couldnt find any intersexual traits,and I thoroughly checked her almost everyday lol!

Fact:these landraces are hermie prone

 

[freefields]

It's quite common for plants to grow a small number of male flowers on the meristem in the early stages of flower, then never grow another male flower again. I've seen it with Mexican, Colombian, Jamaican and Zamal plants.

I had a Colombian female I kept for years, when she first showed sex, there was one cluster of male flowers at one of her lowest nodes, I picked them off and never saw another one again in dozens of runs of her in different setups. Same thing with the Zamal, one cluster of male flowers on a lower node of the meristem when first expressing sex, picked em off and never saw another one.

I found this rather helpful explanation of ploidy, now I'm looking for similarly easily digested writings on other things I wish to understand more fully, such as monoecious, dioecious and hermaphrodite.

An explanation of ploidy​

by Robert G. Halgren, PhD
(with a few phal comments by Howard S. Ginsberg)​

The simplest way to explain polyploidy is that every cell in (virtually) every organism contains two of each kind of chromosome. So, I contain two chromosome 21s in each of my cells. This is the "normal" or diploid (2N) state. Di for two (of each), "ploid" for... ploid. (grin) Humans happen to have 22 pairs of chromosomes and a weirdo, XY or XX, which determines the sex of the human. Plants can have a wide range of chromosome numbers. Through the miracle of meiosis (a word to use in crossword puzzles meaning cell division), gametes have half of the chromosomes of the parent type (i.e. one of each kind). One would think that that would be called "ploid", but instead, it is "haploid" (half of the normal ploidy), or 1N. In the normal case, two gametes combine to form a zygote, which has, once again, a diploid (2N) set of chromosomes. Polyploid is just a fancy word for any multiple of the normal (diploid) ploidy. So 3N, 4N, 5N, 6N, etc. are all polyploid. Note that 3N is 1.5 times 2N, in other words, the multiplier can be fractional.
So, as Steve mentioned, in plants we can screw things up royally with chemicals (such as colchicine) and create tetraploid cells (tetra = four, or 4N), or octaploid cells (octo = eight, or 8N), etc. In animals, this doesn’t happen much in a normal case. I think fish can be polyploid. I’m certain mammals can’t be.
So far we have discussed even ploidy, since we can only double the chromosome number in a plant. So, diploid (normal), tetraploid (2x diploid), and octoploid (2x tetraploid) are possible.
What happens when we cross a tetraploid plant to a diploid plant? Each parent gives one half of their chromosomes in the gametes, which combine to form a zygote. 2+1 = 3, so the progeny are 3N, or triploid. So far so good, but what happens if we want to breed with a triploid? Half of three chromosomes is 1.5, that number doesn’t work too well! Triploids are generally not particularly good breeders because they are not particularly fertile. To complete the cycle, you can double the ploidy of a triploid with chemicals to make a hexaploid (6N). This is fertile, as half of 6 is three, a nice round number.
All this screwing around with chromosome number does have limits.... A cell can only contain so much DNA. So don’t go looking around for 20N plants any time soon. Also, crossing between species or genera of orchids isn’t exactly trivial. In paphs, for example, different species have different chromosome numbers. Which is why primary hybrids are easy to make, but these hybrids don’t always breed well (perhaps the plant is 2.2N or 1.9N - not ideal for dividing in half and getting a nice even number!). Phals, on the other hand, generally all have the same number of chromosomes but there are apparently other problems in breeding species (and hybrids) with large chromosomes to those with small chromosomes.
Why make polyploids at all? Well, in orchids at least, natural polyploids can occur. Mistakes happen sometimes. People have been selecting these out of the "el grande plant progeny pool" for a long time. A polyploid can be (but isn’t always), larger flowered, more intensely colored, etc. Paph. Maudiae "The Queen" (perhaps the best Maudiae ever) is widely assumed to be a triploid. However, it isn’t particularly (if at all) fertile. It has more copies of the genes that make things good (also more of the ones that aren’t so good...). Often this works out spectacularly well. Sometimes you get a crippled, mutated mess. So, since we have seen over the years that polyploid plants can be superior, it is a natural instinct to use the technology we have developed and chemically alter the chromosome counts.
Anyway, I hope this helps. If nothing else, when you are buying plants, and see a lovely tetraploid (4N) plant crossed with an equally lovely diploid (2N) plant, don’t buy that flask with the hopes of getting the world’s best breeding stock. We now know that the progeny should all be triploid (3N), which may be a glorious flower, but not a particularly good breeder.

You can visit the author's web site at http://www.msu.edu/~halgren/ or you can contact the author of this explanation, Robert G. Halgren, PhD, by e-mail at [email protected] .

 

[CFP65]

You're still confused about what happens between the PAR of Y and X and the rest of those chromosomes. I would have to draw you a diagram to explain that but I kinda tend to move on with my life instead. Maybe someone else here with basic understanding of genetics will sacrifice a portion of his life to do that diagram. But then again you could google for a thing like that and find out by yourself...

ok now i quote from the link you supplied
Inheritance and function
Normal male mammals have two copies of these genes: one in the pseudoautosomal region of their Y chromosome, the other in the corresponding portion of their X chromosome. Normal females also possess two copies of pseudoautosomal genes, as each of their two X chromosomes contains a pseudoautosomal region. Crossing over between the X and Y chromosomes is normally restricted to the pseudoautosomal regions; thus, pseudoautosomal genes exhibit an autosomal, rather than sex-linked, pattern of inheritance. So, females can inherit an allele originally present on the Y chromosome of their father and males can inherit an allele originally present on the X chromosome of their father.
The function of these pseudoautosomal regions is that they allow the X and Y chromosomes to pair and properly segregate during meiosis in males
--------------

does the highlighted not clearly state that the X can inherrit an alelle originally present on the Y chromosome form its father?

and still do you have a better place to locate the ethylene surpressing ability than at the Y

 

[BrianBadonde]

Which docs????

Namaste

Ok I'll strighten it out for you, firstly a read from "Phenotypic evolution & parthenogenesis" by M Lynch & W Gabriel

ok so natural selection is the yang to mutations yin ~ on page 746 of this article quite a strong payment can be made,

" Although theoretical work signals the potential importance of mullets rachet on haploid unisexual populations(feusenstein 1974: maynard smith 1978). there is as yet no direct evidence that a gradual accumulation of deleterious mutations results in a depression of fitness and ultimatly an extinction of diploid unisexuals, indeed at least one study on drosphila that has been maintained in parthenogenetic control for at least 19 years (@1983) & routinly maintained at a small population size (level) 50 - 100 & occasionaly reduced to a single individual. Precisely the conditions that would encourage the operation of Mullers Rachet?."

if you then follow thru the article you will find the following

" The models we have presented for unisexual evolution indicate that the "evolutionary dead end" label is untenable".

from an article I will have to come back and cite for you... it escapes me now.

"Genetic variation is assumed to be maintained by mutation ~ selection balance - in a constant enviroment that exerts to stabilising selection on the trait under consideration, sexually reproducing populations have more genetic variance than asexully" therefore if variance is key than a bout of sex is good but theres obvious ways and reasons right? always a different tool for a different job.

If you have concerns over fitness I can too dispel those for you if you'd like?


heres some more reading and theres plenty out there those who seek will find!


http://epub.ub.uni-muenchen.de/5059/1/013.pdf

 

[BENJI]

Once again this thread is closed for a clean-up,,,Anymore insults and off topic posting's will be deleted and members will be warned if you have personal issues with members then use PM's and not this thread for crap slinging matches UNDERSTOOD...?

Edit,,,Thread has be re-opened no more personal attacks and stay on topic please..

 

[Texicannibus]

Cannabis does not have hermaphrodite plants - King Ralph did that to me once Raco - That is an oddity on a monoecious individual from within a subdioecious population

(Photo by KingRalph)

I noticed this same type of formation on the plant I refer to as freaktard.. I recently had a calyx that instead of pistils she spit out a nanna. After pulling it I wish I had taken a photo first. This plant forms both nannas (malformed male flowers) and regular male flowers (very occasionally always on bottom of plant). Btw this is not a feminized plant ... although I think it may well be a female seed. This plant Im referring to I am considering trying to self as it has multiple traits Id love to isolate. It flowers in as short as 4 weeks of 12/12. It smells like juicy fruit and its frost and high are superb. What do you guys think would be the best way to go about getting the qualities I want without the hermi tendencies...

 

[freefields]

I noticed this same type of formation on the plant I refer to as freaktard.. I recently had a calyx that instead of pistils she spit out a nanna. After pulling it I wish I had taken a photo first. This plant forms both nannas (malformed male flowers) and regular male flowers (very occasionally always on bottom of plant). Btw this is not a feminized plant ... although I think it may well be a female seed. This plant Im referring to I am considering trying to self as it has multiple traits Id love to isolate. It flowers in as short as 4 weeks of 12/12. It smells like juicy fruit and its frost and high are superb. What do you guys think would be the best way to go about getting the qualities I want without the hermi tendencies...

4 weeks of 12/12? I'm not sure I believe that, what state are the trichomes in after 4 weeks?

I'd suggest not working with that plant, there are plenty of plants that have great resin production and high without the intersex issues, I'm sure you'd be better off finding a better plant.

Then again, if you want to self it out of sheer curiosity, go ahead, but I would expect you will just get intersexed progeny.

 

[Texicannibus]

Check out thread bro ... Ive got the pics dated and it is accurate I have no need in lying.. the freaktard is a cross of speed queen and erkle. I assume its a speed queen leaning plant that has the erkle leaning flavor. Although I have never grown either of them. I can probably activate the time stamp on my camera if you would find that more believable. Ive ran this plant 4 times now and the first 3 times i didnt document. I kept thinking I was dillusional... thats why this last run I documented it.

add: post number 72 on the second link in my sig shows its status from 5/12 to 6/12 including trich development.

As fast as the plant runs short of taking some pollen from a plant in mid flower and hitting up a plant in super early flower or the preflowers I am not sure how to do it. Takes like 4 weeks for beans to mature afaik but this plant is super fast at everything else so maybe it would be at forming a seed as well. So far Im leaning towards thinking its pollen is sterile as Ive yet to have it form a bean.

 

[freefields]

Oh, I wasn't saying I thought you were lying mate, I was saying I didn't believe the plant is fully mature at 4 weeks. I already took a look at your thread and I didn't see a resin macro at 4 weeks, maybe I missed it. The pic at 5 weeks didn't look fully mature to me, but I could be wrong of course.

I'm familiar with Querkle, it's a good strain aside from the hermie problems. Subcool's strains were riddled with hermies, as much as he wouldn't admit it, that Space Dude has an intersex trait. The best pheno of Querkle from my friend's garden reminded me strongly of Flo in it's taste and it had a really cerebral high, I liked it a lot but i wouldn't chose to grow it myself as Flo is better imho.

Yes, seeds take 4 weeks or so to develop. There is no reason you can't spray your plant in early stages of 12/12 because the is no reason why you have to chop it a 4 weeks, the plant will flower for months if you let it, just do the pollination then flower the plant until the seeds are mature, that might take 6 weeks, might take 8, the plant will easily flower that long.

 

[Texicannibus]

I suppose it does depend on ones definition of fully mature (and why I said as early as 4 weeks) .. I dont like a ton of amber myself. I tend to make sure there are few if any clear trichs... anyhow here is a couple shots I just took in natural light. I believe yesterday would make day 30 and today is day 31 but just kinda glanced at calendar...

And one to show its odd growth tendencies...

 

[Tom Hill]

No there claiming female seeds are a valuable tool for the breeding of cannabis and are also not going to course hermaphrodites or males if there well made or will not have a negative impact on the species called cannabis well were is the real research scientific research to back this up were in fact is real scientific research done on female cannabis seeds.

Hempy,

As far as the technique causing hermies or males.. Would you demand extensive scientific research for you to finally understand that you can not make chicken salad from chicken shit? Put simply, we can not get out what we don't put in - it's not in the method, it's in the genes. This has been explained over and over and in a number of ways but that -in layman's terms- is what it eventually boils down to.

Mendel (et.al) proved this Hempy, it is a founding principle of inheritance. That is what you are up against with these theories of yours so good luck - you'll need it.

As for it being a valuable tool in breeding, this is absolutely and positively irrefutable. As by no other means can a breeder take advantage of the more efficient selection methods (line/pedigree selection etc) - why do you think Clarke (et al.) have utilized it? It's because otherwise we are dealing with much less efficient methods (sib/half sib selection etc), that is why. -Tom

PS, oops, I see the thread has been edited.

 

[BENJI]

Tom i edited the thread as there was too much negativity and personal attacks hopefully this thread can stay clean, positive and on topic from here on...

 

[freefields]

Hiya Texi

That's a nice macro lens ya got, and you show the trichomes well. That's an incredibly fast plant, and I agree with ya that it's getting close. I wouldn't call it fully mature, but it is pickable I'd say.

Apart from the slightly freaky growth, early finish and vigour, does it have any other desireable qualities that set it apart from other Querkles?

I'd only self it if you want to experiment for shits n giggles because the progeny are bound to be intersexed if momma is.

 

[Guest423]

Some folks would try to make chicken salad out of chicken shit to prove their point though!! They'd probably try sayin it tastes the same too! Can't be any worse then all that crow they been munchin on.

How many people actually let the plant they spray pollinate itself when they use CS or STS? Is it even possible to do? The plants I have sprayed with CS were my target plants, I took the pollen from them to put it on other plants that were not sprayed, I don't even think half of the people arguing have grown any S1's or Feminized Hybrids out or know how its done.

Raco, thats interesting how they freak out on ya inside but are great outdoor plants, they been out in that valley for so long the indoors don't agree with them. Thats what I've seen from a few different landrace strains and even some hybrids that were made and grown in the outdoors for many generations. Just like some of the Feminized Hybrids I was mentioning earlier, some will show intersex indoors but none as of yet outside.

Tom, say it isn't so, all these years I been using the term hermie now I have to change it to intersex or monoecious if I'm gettin technical? Thanks for the schooling, hehe

 

[TheGerm]

Can some of you genetic experiments put up your research papers for all of us to see ? Also would like to know what college degrees you hold ?

TheGerm

 

[Texicannibus]

Hiya Texi

That's a nice macro lens ya got, and you show the trichomes well. That's an incredibly fast plant, and I agree with ya that it's getting close. I wouldn't call it fully mature, but it is pickable I'd say.

Apart from the slightly freaky growth, early finish and vigour, does it have any other desireable qualities that set it apart from other Querkles?

I'd only self it if you want to experiment for shits n giggles because the progeny are bound to be intersexed if momma is.

Thanks I really like it although Id like to get some extension tubes to get even closer..

As far as freaktards qualities beyond those you listed... its got a nice taste smell buzz and bag appeal. Not that I sale but Id assume most would be shocked by its resin coverage. You pretty much nailed the main qualities Ive yet to see in any other strain Ive grown and thats its speed and over-all vigour. It basically produces as much as my other plants in half the time. Smell and taste are both very juicy fruit gum tasting to me.

I have alot of genetics to run so when/if I find something as vigourous and tastey/stoney Ill replace it. I may try to self it before I do for future toying around.

 

[Dalaihempy]

Hempy,

As far as the technique causing hermies or males.. Would you demand extensive scientific research for you to finally understand that you can not make chicken salad from chicken shit? Put simply, we can not get out what we don't put in - it's not in the method, it's in the genes. This has been explained over and over and in a number of ways but that -in layman's terms- is what it eventually boils down to.

Mendel (et.al) proved this Hempy, it is a founding principle of inheritance. That is what you are up against with these theories of yours so good luck - you'll need it.

As for it being a valuable tool in breeding, this is absolutely and positively irrefutable. As by no other means can a breeder take advantage of the more efficient selection methods (line/pedigree selection etc) - why do you think Clarke (et al.) have utilized it? It's because otherwise we are dealing with much less efficient methods (sib/half sib selection etc), that is why. -Tom

PS, oops, I see the thread has been edited.

Tom there is no research real scientific research on female cannabis seeds been done by any one at all and all we have is a few that are producing fem seeds claiming there the best thing since sliced bread there is no evidence to say that this will not be a positive thing for the species or is there evidence to say this method don't produce hermaphrodites and male in fact there is more evidence to show they do from people that grew the fem seeds out now to produce female seeds you need a true female plant which apparently is not an easy thing to find and sam has sed he has only 1.

Your a smart guy tom nature does not do something like add a male into an species for no veiled reason.


So its a valuable tool for breeding you say well i say its a valuable tool for people with no breeding understanding or interest in real breeding and all there interested in is to produce seeds with little effort for market.

I don't think its being unreasonable in a debate to ask for real credible proof like scientific research to back the other party's claims mate after all its only going to serve the debate and the claims by the other side that female seeds are all there sed to be right.


Yes this post has been edited a few times because some in here love to loos it when people post with a different vue or opinion tough some need to grow up.

So were is any credible research to prove female seeds are a positive thing.

 

[hoosierdaddy]

Back up your own claims, Hempy. You have not provided one stitch of evidence to support your position in this debate. Nothing at all.
However, much has been shown and explained to you. You simply ignore what has been presented and continue to repeat the same old song and dance. It seems that it is YOU that lacks understanding of the breeding process and basic genetics.

Yes, it is unreasonable for you to ask someone to provide anything at all to disprove your theory. Whatever that theory may be. You bear the responsibility of making your case, and so far you have not made much of a case at all.

 

[darwinsbulldog]

Can some of you genetic experiments put up your research papers for all of us to see ? Also would like to know what college degrees you hold ?

TheGerm

hey TheGerm i dunno if anyone in this thread has written papers per se, but there're a lot of useful texts and papers in sticky threads in the Breeder's Laboratory

suss out the Scientific Reference Bibliography and Inbreeding.... the skill of the breeder.... also sam the skunkman's thread on CANNABIS REFERENCES for breeding

i went through the other day and downloaded / looked up all the papers and text i could find. now it's just a matter of reading through it all haha hope that helps mate

darwin

 

[resin_lung]

Can't tell you guys how much I appreciate threads like these! I've gone through this thread a couple times and I'm about to go for a third. Thanks to ALL who have contributed! Even those who IMHO have been proven wrong. To be honest, before starting this thread I was of the (completely uneducated) opinion that "female" seeds were a bad. I now believe they're not and can be a valuable tool in the breeders tool box. This thread also makes me wish I stayed in school a little while longer, cause there are some really smart mofos around here!