WTF is w/feminized genetics,

[darwinsbulldog]

it's the ratio of phenotypes in offspring from a specific mating/cross etc. so if you have XX x XX all will be XX (homozygous) if you have XY x XY this is heterozygous, so you get XX 25%, XY 50% and YY 25% (i'd say this would be lethal and seeds wouldn't germ, though i haven't tried/looked into it).

the typical mendelian ratio is the 1 : 2 : 1 or 3 : 1 (depending on expression of genes, dominance would mean the AA and Aa (1AA:2Aa:1aa) for example would show same pheno) from a simple heterozygous cross.

i think that's what you're asking about anyway, hope that helps. wiki's got lots of info on it here Mendelian Inheritance have a look if you want more info on it

darwin

 

[hoosierdaddy]

To produce XX seed, you need a 100% XX plant. To determine if
a plant really is pure and if this is a XX-plant, can not be too
difficult. To disturb the cycle regularly, by using light to recall
shockeffects, is a good method to commit hermaphrodites. It is
optimal if you, while shocking, give the some more CO2. But,
make sure that you give them in time trace elements. By all these
strange moves they use a lot of extra, especially magnesium, I
noticed. When you finally have one or more pure females, then
they will be the base of the improved species. But, look out,
because there are very liter pure XX plants, how strange this may
sound. Inattentive breeding in the past, with especially Asiatic
plants, have genetically in depth produced much hermaphrodites.
So, when a plant is not pure XX, the pollen can also not be pure
XX. This is very frustrating, because all the work has been for
nothing. But, if you have found a XX-plant, we go look further.
After years of experimenting and seeking, I was three years ago
able to cover the XX plant with it’s own dust. But it did not really
hurry up, because the length of the cycle was very disappointing to
the yield.

You need a pure female as i says here and sam has sed he has only 1.

Hemp, MrXX (or was that Mr Xx...?) has answered the thing for you. It is exactly as we have been telling you it is.
Now, I'm not at all sure you are following close, but the above is the whole thing in a nutshell. If you have two true females and breed them together, there will be NO hermies...as there is nothing in their genetic maps to allow that to happen.
A true breeding female, that has been selected for no hermie trait, may well have the intersex gene in it's map somewhere, but though selection we can find the plant that has the hermie trait (intersex gene) buried way down latent. You do understand about dominant and latent genetic material, yes?

Anyway, the true breeding plants that are chosen to use for fem seeds is done through the selection process, the very same process that is used for regular seed breeding by responsible breeders who actually understand the work they are doing.

And don't come back with any responses about how MrXX's grow turned out to be less than desired...that has absolutely nothing to do with this discussion and is entirely another matter.

 

[CFP65]

tanks darwin
i do get all of that, and i do know of mendelian laws, punnet squares and so on

and maby im not so good at expressing my thinking in words
but it was the ratio of hermies i was considered about, that i interpreted from what tom worte to fall in under mendelian ratios.
and the "mostly" defining the hermies caused by treshold effects / hormones etc i could not get to add up

 

[hoosierdaddy]

Mostly comes into play with genetics because many other things must be accounted for, such as things that cannot be accounted for. In other words, nothing is set in stone in genetics, and many times an epigenetic response or a full on genetic mutation can occur randomly and without apparent provocation. In even simpler terms...shit happens.

 

[Hazy Lady]

Mostly comes into play with genetics because many other things must be accounted for, such as things that cannot be accounted for. In other words, nothing is set in stone in genetics, and many times an epigenetic response or a full on genetic mutation can occur randomly and without apparent provocation. In even simpler terms...shit happens.

Which brings us nicely to Mendels 2nd Law - The law of independent assortment.

 

[englishrick]

hay hoos,,,Tom

do you think its time to expain the Rachet and Monkey Wrench theorys.....

do do you think people aint ready yet??

 

[groady-ho]

hey all, i'm just going to update what i said previously in the above comment.

after having done a little research into this tonight i'd say that self-pollination/fertilization is a bit of a gray area when it comes to whether it's sexual or asexual. i'd now say it's not asexual, and can be seen as technically "sexual" reproduction.

I spoke to both my parents about this, both of whom were once biology/genetics lecturers at my university, and they believe that it’s both and neither.

i looked up the definitions for sexual/asexual/reproduction etc and found that the definition changes depending on the source.

if you wiki reproduction and look under asexual reproduction - "Asexual reproduction is the process by which an organism creates a genetically similar or identical copy of itself without a contribution of genetic material from another individual."

Though if you wiki asexual reproduction it states that "Asexual reproduction is reproduction which does not involve meiosis, ploidy reduction, or fertilization. Only one parent is involved in asexual reproduction"

www.biology-online.org defines sexual reproduction as "A mode of reproduction involving the fusion of female gamete (ovum) and male gamete (spermatozoon), which forms a zygote that potentially develops into genetically distinct offspring."

Though wiki states that sexual reproduction is “Sexual reproduction is a biological process by which organisms create descendants that have a combination of genetic material contributed from two (usually) different members of the species. (Self-fertilization requires only one organism.)”

at the end of the day it depends on how you want to define each term. if one believes the defining feature of sexual reproduction is having two separate organisms involved mixing their genetic material, or if the defining feature is the presence of meiosis and subsequent formation of gametes. Likewise with asexual reproduction, if it’s defining feature is the progeny having come from a single parent, or if it must not involve meiosis/gametes.

It’s a bit of a confusing/gray area, in the end i guess it doesn't really matter if it’s asexual or sexual because we're arguing about the definition of those terms, the biology of the plant stays the same. My folks say it should be referred to as neither sexual/asexual repro but as “self-pollination / self-fertilization” as it’s own category, but I think if I had to choose I’d say it’s sexual reproduction, if i see gametes/zygotes as the most important feature, with asexual reproduction not being able to involve these features. i just get stuck up on their not being two parents of differing sexes involved in the reproduction. it's all semantics.

let me know what you guys think.


darwin

ag grad here uconn 90'..DB your parents are absolutely correct..
this thread has more bs in it then the people who read an article and think they know something..
geez people if your going to quote a source atleast understand what your quoting..
way too much mis-information and BS in here.. sorry guys but y'all are not geneticist..i want to know how many of you even took ps,pb or even ag courses..
the analogies in this thread kill me..

 

[unthing]

Science is bad for those hippie vibes.

 

[darwinsbulldog]

tanks darwin
i do get all of that, and i do know of mendelian laws, punnet squares and so on

and maby im not so good at expressing my thinking in words
but it was the ratio of hermies i was considered about, that i interpreted from what tom worte to fall in under mendelian ratios.
and the "mostly" defining the hermies caused by treshold effects / hormones etc i could not get to add up

yeah can't say i know too much about the relationship between hermaphroditism and heritability. you'd have to do a pretty decent experiment to get close to finding an answer because of the problem that hermies can be produced by any number of environmental factors, as well as genetic factors. in order to get a decent sense of it you'd have to really control for your environment well, as well as use a range of plants for crosses and then count progeny by phenotype or if you had the ability do molecular analysis to work out genotype (save a lot of time but expensive as)

you'd probably need to do crosses like these:
* Pure breeding NON hermies crossed with pure breeding NON hermies (control group)
* Pure Breeding NON hermies crossed with pure breeding hermies
* and maybe pure breeding hermies x pure breeding hermies

if you could put them all under the exact same conditions with sufficient numbers in each treatment and then have the ability to raise up as many progeny as possible (the F1s) and count how many showed whatever level of hermaphroditism you might be able to work out if it fits the mendelian ratio and it's heritability, whether dominant, recessive, codominant, etc... it'd be a great experiment to which i'd love to read the results! but i don't think it's really in any individuals interest to spend their money and time answering it in the near future. not until the laws regarding cannabis are tossed and universities and other medical institutions etc are able to focus on it.

anyway maybe the question's already been answered, i dunno! i'd love to know if anyone out there does know

darwin

 

[darwinsbulldog]

Hemp, MrXX (or was that Mr Xx...?) has answered the thing for you. It is exactly as we have been telling you it is.
Now, I'm not at all sure you are following close, but the above is the whole thing in a nutshell. If you have two true females and breed them together, there will be NO hermies...as there is nothing in their genetic maps to allow that to happen.
A true breeding female, that has been selected for no hermie trait, may well have the intersex gene in it's map somewhere, but though selection we can find the plant that has the hermie trait (intersex gene) buried way down latent. You do understand about dominant and latent genetic material, yes?

Anyway, the true breeding plants that are chosen to use for fem seeds is done through the selection process, the very same process that is used for regular seed breeding by responsible breeders who actually understand the work they are doing.

And don't come back with any responses about how MrXX's grow turned out to be less than desired...that has absolutely nothing to do with this discussion and is entirely another matter.

hey hoosierdaddy i just had a few questions regarding this comment

he talks about finding a pure XX female. what is the real sex chromosome make up of these plants, do we know? i think i saw somewhere in a previous comment someone said they have 4 sex chromosomes, any combination of X and Ys (eg XXYX) this would explain the quote you put about MrXx saying you'd want 100% female as in (XXXX) as i'm guessing XXYX is "mostly" female and where we have issues with male hormones arising and causing hermaphroditism to occur because of that single Y chromosome? anyway just wanted to know more about it

also, is it environmental stress that causes hermaphroditism to emerge only on "mostly" female plants (XXYX) and thus environmental stresses will have NO effect what so ever on XXXX pure female plants?

and if the 4 sex chromosomes is the way they're arranged/counted, that makes it a polyploid species yeah? cheers mate

 

[hoosierdaddy]

One can surmise that sexual expression is controlled by available genes. But one can also surmise that sexual expression is controlled by epigentic responses that do not involve genes and react to the environment. It only serves to logic that there must be another strategy in place than the typical X/Y heteromorphic.

My laymans take envisions plant XXyX as a female with a recessive intersex trait, while the XXxY would be a female with a dominant intersex trait. XYyX would be a male with a recessive intersex trait, while XYxY male with the dominant intersex trait.
The heteromorphic end of the strategy is dependent on the genetics, and determines from conception what the progeny's true sex is, while the rest of the story will be told due to the epigenetic responses the map takes from the stresses presented it during development.

I agree that a true female will not be able to show hermie no matter what stress is placed on it.

Cannabis sativa L. is a dioecious species with sexual dimorphism occurring in a late stage of plant development. Sex is determined by heteromorphic chromosomes (X and Y): male is the heterogametic sex (XY) and female is the homogametic one (XX). The sexual phenotype of Cannabis often shows some flexibility leading to the differentiation of hermaphrodite flowers or bisexual inflorescences (monoecious phenotype).

lol...aren't you the one doing post grad work? I should be asking you!

 

[darwinsbulldog]

cheers for that hoosierdaddy!

another question, how does it segregate during meiosis?? having that intersex trait must make things much more complex than the heteromorphic X or Y gametes.

One can surmise that sexual expression is controlled by available genes. But one can also surmise that sexual expression is controlled by epigentic responses that do not involve genes and react to the environment. It only serves to logic that there must be another strategy in place than the typical X/Y heteromorphic.

My laymans take envisions plant XXyX as a female with a recessive intersex trait, while the XXxY would be a female with a dominant intersex trait. XYyX would be a male with a recessive intersex trait, while XYxY male with the dominant intersex trait.
The heteromorphic end of the strategy is dependent on the genetics, and determines from conception what the progeny's true sex is, while the rest of the story will be told due to the epigenetic responses the map takes from the stresses presented it during development.

I agree that a true female will not be able to show hermie no matter what stress is placed on it.




lol...aren't you the one doing post grad work? I should be asking you!

 

[englishrick]

only a very small number of plants has dioecy been accompanied by the development of sex chromosomes....although the terms "male" and "female" should be reserved for gametes or the direct pro-ducers of gametes, for convenience we can regard the stamens as the "male" organs and the carpels as the `female' organs.

the majority of the world's fowering plants are hermaphrodite, hermaphrodites are present as an earlier stage of evolution. The process by which Y "evolves" is the very process which eliminates the hermaphrodite tendencies.

the "Aim" of any species is to multiply, anything which increases the ability to do that is an evolutionary benefit. dioecy is simply the most extreme mechanism which avoids the deleterious efects of inbreeding. genes that outperform will be passed on in greater numbers, if any info is passed on in one generation that is negative, in the next generation that chrome will have a lower chance of being passed on until it no longer exists.

how do you guys think the Y chromozone evloved?????,,,,,,,the Y chromozone is beneficial!!!,,,"in specific target enviroments"


I myself am concerned that removing all intersexed genenes may cause us to lose out on important dna sequences. so if i had my way..."both camps should be safe and secure and working away", then everyone gets the best of both worlds and then growers could choose what they grow depending on their circumstances.

.

 

[hoosierdaddy]

The way I understand it, there are ten pairs of chromosomes in the map of each parent.
Only the Y chromosome existing in the 10 pairs from the haploid male can cause a male.
I am not really sure how the reduction combining shakes out, but if a male is used for pollination, the Y chromosome exists, and it can either be a part of the resulting meiosis or it will not. From what I have understood, this adding (or not adding) takes place about 50% of the time for regular M/F breeding schemes. Hence a normal ratio of 1:1 M:F.

The intersex trait will be carried in one of the other paired chromosomes, and they seem to be stress dependent (respond epigenetically) even after a reduction combination takes place.

I think it is safe to say that when we look at the sex of a person, it can be expressed as XY or XX, but when considering cannabis sativaL we must consider a twenty lettered descriptive rather than just the two as with us.

 

[englishrick]

in dioecious plants of hemp males are regarded as heterogametic XY and females as homogametic XX....markers located on the sex chromosomes can be grouped into different classes, depending on the presence or absence of a fragment on the X and/or the Y...they are detected by separately analysing male and female progenies of a single cross....

 

[groady-ho]

sorry guys for coming off kinda crass..too damn early and not enough coffee..anyway what i'm trying to say it's more than x and y chromos imvho..there's so much we just don't know yet..

 

[englishrick]

what i think your refering to is a "autosomal region"

 

[darwinsbulldog]

yeah thanks guys, think i'm going to have to ask a few of my lecturers/professors in the botany and genetics departments at uni and ask if they either know or can find out more about this as i'd love to really understand it 100%. i'll let you guys know if i find out anything more than what you guys have discussed here! cheers again

 

[CFP65]

now i quote the full text from another tread in here.
----------------

http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=14863088

In dioecious plants of hemp (Cannabis sativa L.), males are regarded as heterogametic XY and females as homogametic XX, although it is difficult to discriminate the X cytologically from the Y. The Y chromosome is somewhat larger than the X. Our aim was to analyse AFLP markers on X and Y, and to use them to gain some insight into the structure of the sex chromosomes. Markers located on the sex chromosomes can be grouped into different classes, depending on the presence or absence of a fragment on the X and/or the Y. They are detected by separately analysing male and female progenies of a single cross. Five markers were found to be located on both chromosomes. A few recombinants were observed for marker pairs of this class in the male progenies. Two completely linked markers located on the Y chromosome in the male parent show a recombination rate of r = 0.25 with sex. Recombination must have occurred between the sex chromosomes in the male parent. The recombination analysis led to the conclusion that there is a pseudoautosomal region (PAR) on the sex chromosomes, allowing recombination between the X and the Y chromosome. The other regions of the sex chromosomes show only a few recombination events, for the Y as well as for the X. These results are discussed in comparison to other dioecious plants.
------------------------------------

to get a better picture of what English rick just said.


now you can reverse a male to make pistils (by cemicals)
that is surpress its Y cromosome and express its X by applying hormones
what seems to me is that the males lacking ability to make or maintain high enough levels of ethylene must stem from the Y chromosome) and that in the case of stamen on a female this could wery well be something the female inherited from the shuffeling and recombination i in the above has highligted.

and that cutting out males from the sex in the longer run will cut out hormonal hermie expressions, there will not be any "lending" of hormonal traits from males

please correct me if im wrong

 

[englishrick]

BRAVO,,,,i wish kopite was here