World War #4?

[BushyOldGrower]

Many consider the cold war the third world war and the coming one the 4th. My belief is that Osama's goal is to cause this world war. By isolating America and Israel in world opinion.

Many people think that I am not a loyal american because I have opposed the Iraq war but this isn't true. I do love America and her people. I supported the military action in Afghanistan and I want the Republicans and Conservatives here to know that I am just displeased with the way this war has gone so far.

We were attacked mercilessly and almost all americans were ready to fight. We believed Sadam must have WMD if America was invading even if we had some doubts. I doubted it but now I wonder if Iraq wasn't a horrible fumble.

What if there were WMD's there and now we can't find them? That probably means those trucks heading to Syria before the invasion had some in them. Who knows where what is now?

Maybe Bush did what he could but failed. Maybe he didn't lie but would almost rather you think he had. Because the idea that the war failed its main mission is really not good for his re-election.

Now it seems that America is blamed for Al Qaedas attack in Spain and I see a trend. We took the lead and now we will be held responcible for the atrocities of our enemies too?

Surely you can see how this could lead to a really hot world war. BOG

 

[ken]

what the hell have the UN got to do with, um anything?

i doubt there will be any world wars, i think the usa will give up once it attacks a nation that actually has some kind of military

and i think europe and the rest of the worlds governments are to spineless to try to defend any other countries, so unless america attacks europe for objecting (which would be too dumb, even for bush), it'll just be terrorist attacks vs random american military violence, which provoke more terrorist attacks, etc.

we could be talking about the usa forming a closer military alliance with isreal and getting dragged into that conflict, and a similar cycle of violence fueled both by the usa's right wing extreemist government, isreals similar government, and islamic extreemists.

i expect the muslim nations (if they have any sense) will be arming themselves, america doesnt want another veitnam, so that should be enough of a deterrant to full scale world war

 

[phillykid]

It's not unamerican to criticize the war. If that's what you believe than it'd be unamerican not to. It's not unamerican to be all for the war either. America should stand as a place where we are free to have opinions and state those opinions in a civil manner.
The problem with what you state is that Iraq wasn't responsible for the 9/11 attacks. It was a bunch of Saudis and Alqueda.
And if Saddam didn't have WMD, he sure did try to make the world think he did by evading and lying to the inspectors.
There's many hard issues to look at here. One is about america being the police of the world, about how we have our culture and they have theirs and we shouldn't interfere with them. I'll quote Bill Mahr, "some cultures are better than others". As politically incorrect as this is, I'll agree with it. Another thing he said is if a country made all their black people wear "beekeeper outfits" and wouldn't let them have jobs etc there'd be a world outcry. i guess women aren't as important? Our culture is more enlightened and IMO BETTER than THEIRS. Our economy is stronger, our people are happier, we can actually say Bush is a retard and not have our sisters and moms raped and tortured. As much as we bitch about Bush, or even Ashcroft for that matter, either one would be considered little school girls next to the atrocities of Saddam.
As for Iraq. Remember a little thing called WW2. When we beat up the Germans and decimated Japan? We rebuilt them with the help of other nations and now look at them. Their people are happier, have more choices and opportunities, and their economies have never been stronger. Now they are integral parts of the world economy and they benefit the world. Iraq might be the same in the future.
We do have to rethink our foreign policy, Bush isn't a good president in the sense that he can't talk to world leaders and get them to follow him. The way he talks smacks too much of arrogance and nobody wants to listen to that.

The rest of the world can hold us responsible for all the attrocities....that doesn't make it true. And screw them if they think that. The UN has shown its impotence time and time again. They told us to let Saddam go after Kuwait.....look what happened, how many had to die. They told us to give him more time, were they ever going to use force? France had already said it wouldn't and never would. The rest of the world can run in terror, we won't. After the Spain attack they withdraw troops? What does this tell terrorists? It tells them that they can get away with intimidating whole countries, well, they didn't get away with it with the US, and they won't.

BTW I'm still on the fence about the whole thing. I dunno if we did the right or wrong thing, I hope and pray we did the right thing, even if it was for the wrong reasons. I don't like Bush, I don't like the way he talks to foreign leaders or deals with them, and his domestic policy sucks. But I do admire him for having the balls to stand up to the UN and do what he thought was right. At least he leads rather than follows....I just wish he'd lead a lot better .
Peace
PK

 

[Guest]

war

war

war doesnt solve anything . wheres bin laden now?dead ? living off the hashish piles? the devestation caused looking for bin laden and suddham has cost thousands of innocent lives.i just think all this could be avoided.thers been enough death what with 9/11and eta and the ira .we dont want our leaders to kill even more.lest try and solve this peacefully. thats whats the un is for

 

[Captain Canibus]

We are in the begining of WW4, it is a religious war of the righteous (Wahabes) against the infidels ( that includes me and all of you). The righteous have given us 2 options. We can convert to their style of Islam (that does not include the Islam of Moroco, Bosnia, etc) or we need to die.

Fuck the UN, they are spineless and many of the member countries cheer when something bad happens to Western countries.

Negotiate with an element that values suicide bombings. Become a maryter and you get to sodomize 72 young girls in paradise. Now that's a religion. How about their educational system that consists soley of memorizing the Koran. Here we can express differing views, there they have but one view.

The war in Iraq was the lesser of two evils. Sadam was responsible for the deaths of millions. Remember Iran or Kuwait. The gasing of the kurds. How many Shiites did he butcher around Basra. At least that mass murderer has been stopped.

 

[phillykid]

War doesn't solve anything? i wish we lived in a world where this were true. Where there aren't people in the world who were willing to kill to get what they want, or driven to kill anything that isn't inherently like themselves. But let's face the facts of the real unutopian world.

We almost didn't enter WW2 for the sake of peace. We'd all be speaking German, all Jews would be dead, Hitler also probably would've killed all non aryans.

Without war, we'd (americans) be a colony of England. We'd send them our goods and they'd tell us what to do...sounds like fun huh? BTW we also would get taxed but we wouldn't be able to choose our leaders.

Without war we'd still have slavery.
War should be a last resort when all other methods have failed. The world isn't made up of only sugar, spice, and a bunch of peace loving hippies there are also a lot of bad people who need their asses kicked from time to time so they don't get too much power.

 

[Guest]

all i got to say is the US has too many of its own problems,and it shouldn't be worrying about everyone elses problems, i say we contribute to the UN and let them work on the world as a whole, but the US's efforts should be more concentrated on the US(poverty, health care, war on drugs, doing what the people want rather than what big corporations want)...

and in conclusion....
fuck da PoLice

 

[Four Fingers]

John Titor said that the war will begin just before the next presidential election. He said that it will be a civil war between the radical groups and the US gov., and that the Patriot Act will be used to destroy the United States and it’s citizens. Some interesting reading! Google > John Titor
I don’t think that they had good weed on his worldline though.

Forfingoz

 

[BushyOldGrower]

But, what to do?

But, what to do?

Most of are not so simpleminded as to think that we just arrived here without history leading up to it. If the war was just the arabs I wouldn't be so concerned. Many issues here and at least 2 sides and versions of history for each but...

Forces are attacking not only the USA now and the WOT if it has been botched by america as most europeans, even those from our iraq allies, believe then why should they leave it to the USA to protect them?

Certainly everyone might as well abandon us in Iraq now but that won't stop the trains from getting bombed. Blame and recriminations are really a waste of time so what do we do?

I think this situation is leading to a break in our allies so Europe will need to do something if not through the UN then some other way. Any ideas? Kinda hard to stop these attacks isn't it?

Even though I want Bush gone I don't think it will change America's foriegn policies much unless the change means more cooperation. Divided we fall and this war is really about the rich against the poor. If the rich countries squabble the poor ones are even more likely to win. And of course they will eventually because it's easier to blow soft targets up than to protect them and this can ruin our economies.

Perhaps we need to think about negotiations with our enemies before it's too late... BOG

 

[ken]

oh, right, i thought you meant what will probably happen, assuming bush 'wins' the next election.

the first and probably most important thing is to solve the isreal/palestine conflict, peacefully

and of course, dont attack any other muslim nations.


al quida are a loose international organisation, you cant beat them just by bombing/invading random countries, this just makes them stronger.

al quida's strength is its ability to recruit many desperate, poor, muslims, with a serious grudge against isreal/usa/the west, etc.

bombing muslim countries, and massive financial and political support for isreal & their own terror campaign, creates a much larger recruiting ground for al quida.

 

[ken]

i think 90% of americans just think they get attacked for no reason at all.

europe can't do much to put the fire out, while america is adding fuel to it.

 

[BushyOldGrower]

But Ken

But Ken

We had this chat didn't we? You and your UK as well as Spain and Italy, Poland and australia were for the invasion of Iraq. How do you know that it was your leader that caved to Bush's pressure given the UK's history with Iraq and Imperialism itself.

So what you are saying is that America gets all the blame for leading even though you were on the same side? I as an american was againt invading Iraq also but our gov'ts were in lockstep. You assume Bush was the one doing the arm twisting but how can you blame the usa?

The attack on the WTC was totally unjustified terror plain and simple and if you don't think so just ask those people on the train in Spain. BOG

 

[ken]

sorry, were we talking about terrorism, or the war in Iraq?

 

[BushyOldGrower]

I am talking about Terrorism Ken

I am talking about Terrorism Ken

The Iraq fumble was a mistake but we were attacked before that and an international coalition was formed. Yes, Iraq was a mistake I agree but now what do you figure to do? Blame the USA for Spains Train hit?

There is a commom enemy. We are on the same side with a difference in strategy and I agree with you but what to do? BOG

I say put Tony Blair in Charge of the WOT. They the UK can be blamed for whatever happens next.

 

[Guest]

I think The UN should 'run the show', Americans have gotten a bad rap based on the mistakes of our leadership... This 'terrorism issue' is one without clear cut answers, there are many different angles, many sides, Not just good against evil or some such simple concept... We can play the blame game, or we can concentrate on finding a multilateral soluoution to the worlds problems, the first steps including getting bush out of any type of leadership, and america out of the forefront in Iraq. Last night I heard the point made that each Iraqii interviewed during this anniversary of the wars onset basically said 'Thanks for ousting Saddam, Please don't Leave Yet, and Fuck America...'

 

[ken]

tony blair

that'd be really dangerous.

tbh, i think he really thinks hes on some kind of religious mission.

we'd need conscription .....

the uk army is already at full stretch across the world, cant invade anywhere else.

blair is discredited in this country, he's pretty much lost his job over this (as he should), only prpblem is there is no official opposition, although many labour supportors want Brown to take over.

we cant fight for peace, i dunno why you cant understand this, we cant beat the terrorists by killing them all.

fighting for peace is like fucking for virginity.

mebbe the new Spanish pm should lead the "War on Terror" ?

 

[ken]

as for the UN, well, they are irrelevent.

they mean even less in the real world, than the american news channels tell you they do.

 

[ken]

dont forget terrorism isnt so new in Europe.

Britain, Spain, and several other european countries have been attacked by terrorists for over 30 years ....

the ones that attacked britain were even funded by our good old american friends

 

[Digit]

dont forget ken...
as were the terrorists who atacked america.

why is all this happening?
PNAC's why.

sounds very nazi, very totalitarian, very skull&bones, very fascist (or at least authoritarian), very power hungry, etc.
and so you know why it sounds that way? ...because it is that way. lol.

this plan was started back in the early 90s. Neo-Conservatives take over the world. woohoo.

we're fucked. too much has already slipped past. they have their executive autonomy, noble lies, "patriot" acts, terrorist acts, influence on the media, control over the vote counters, control over the courts... we're fucked.

only through TALKING can disputes with any REAL disgruntlement with muslim nations be solved, not through violence which in this case can only lead to genocide and self anihilation. those who perperate and spread the attacks do so unwittingly as per the wishes of those power hungry corporate-ruling class in america.

raaaaaaa. *steam bellows from Digit's ears*
sorry... getting very ranty. just so difficult to remain composed and rational when we stand between a rock and a hard place, global domination, or global anihilation.

 

[Euripides Eumenides]

Digit, PNAC is just an idea a bunch of guys came up with.
You can't pin all this on the PNAC. The PNAC comes about because of the prescience of the neocons (only thinking the way they feel they should) to foresee the hostile climate that we're in now. This is the tack they chose to follow.
When Kerry comes to power - if he does - he will select his own think-tank to formulate his liberal foreign policy.

Making the Middle East an oasis of change isn't anything new; it's only the ideas that change based upon the presenters in power.

Radical Islam made its rise after the fall of Communism - as Communist USSR abhored and actively quashed Islamic movements. The US did the same for different strategic purposes.
The bases of power for the last century in the Middle East were either aligned with the USSR or the US. There were no third-way options. And again, both abhorred Islamists.

With a polar power vacuum, former client states or allies of the USSR (or dominions/conquests) were subject to Islamist insurrection - Chechnya, Afghanistan, etc. So were the Western backed nations who were no longer fed (except Egypt) the money and weapons they were prior to 1989. The decline of interest by the super powers (and an inability to foresee the next great challenge) and the lack of American teeth in the region over 20 years of slow punishment in the form of terrorism brought about the boldness and cohesion we see on the terrorist's side.

PNAC is just one method among many to deal with the challenges. It is not the anti-christ, it is just a think tank that the current administration currently agrees with. And regime change in America would see a change in doctrine.