Why Use Coco With All These Known Problems?

[NCS420]

Need a lil help if you could. I really do appreciate.
I'm using Botanicare coco. I got it in bales. Putting it in 5 gal pots using RO water in a run to waste. Nutes are GH 3 part. I have diamond nectar for the fulvic acid. I'm sure you know that. Might use it as a foliar feed. I've always used GH never really messed with to many other base nutes. Supplements I have so many. Sugar daddy, budswel, sweet, EJ Catalyst, Gravity and some yellow bottle final. I'm gonna play with the sugars and blooms supplements on different plants to see what gets the job done right and tasty. Don't know how the coco is gonna react to them either. I'm gonna give them half the dose and see how much more they can take.

I trying to dial in the best lucas formula for the coco and using ro. Never really grew in just coco. I always did hydro with hydroton/gh coco cubes (they stopped making them) or rockwool cubes. My grow is way to large to do all hydro, so I turned to coco and hand feed with a wand. Soon as I get the nutes right, drip lines are there.

Need a veg/flower formula for my 3 part If you have any experiance with this? I am not a pro by any means and never used the lucas formula nor used ro water. So I know I'm missing some Cal and other trace elements from tap. Never had a problem in the past so why fix it. But now I have no choice.

I've always went by GH feeding program in my hydro grows and never had a problem. Plus I always used tap water. Where I am now water is 450ppm @.5 conversion, so I got a ro system. Plus I don't have the time or space to boil or air out my tap.

The coco does not like what I feed my hydro in the past. And now with the ro I am not looking to good. If you can help me in plain english lol I would be so thankful. Thank you for your time.

 

[indifferent]

I'm nopt familiar with Lucas, I know of it but never used it. I've not used GH 3-part for a long time either, and only in hydro, but it sounds to me like your issue is cal/mag. The RO water will be low in cal/mag and coco needs plenty of cal/mag.

If you have a cal/mag supplement, add some of that to your regime. Maybe increasing the levels of Micro would also fix the issue. Rezdog and GratefulHead have a coco recipe using GH 3-part and they drop the Flora and just use Bloom and Micro as the Micro has enough N in it apparently.

Are you able to take a pic of the plants that are having problems? That would help a lot in trying to help you diagnose and fix.

Also, consult the 'complete guide to sick plants, pests and troubles' (or something like that) thread by mynameisstitch, it's stickied in the sick plants section of the forum. There is lots of great info there to enable you to diagnose what is wrong with your plants. Then you can start fixing it, but diagnosis must come first.

My money is on a cal/mag issue.

 

[rrog]

And on this thread overall... rrog, you don't have a coco-based grow going. You're growing in OBBT, which uses a coco that is more coarse than any coco grower uses. Your use of coco is as an amendment to your soil, as opposed to being the actual medium for your plants to grow in. You're growing in soil.

OBBT Medium:

44% Coco Brick
08% Medium size coco
11% Large Perlite
14% Large Vermiculite
23% Humus

Not quote soil, but with over 50% of the medium being coco, it's not pure coco either.

 

[rrog]

Shhh and LBJ that is some welcome information. Interesting how soil vs. soilless profiles are different. Soil seems more broadly stable. Could be the presumed micro-life in a soil? Are we dealing with Mineral soil or soilless?

 

[Castelvetro]

its a waste of time talking about coco to someone who mixes it with dirt. they always have problems and cant figure it out, coco is an organic medium u treat like hydro. untill u get this you wont get coco-

 

[rrog]

its a waste of time talking about coco to someone who mixes it with dirt. they always have problems and cant figure it out, coco is an organic medium u treat like hydro. untill u get this you wont get coco-

Well that's not contributing to the otherwise excellent thread, now is it?

 

[Megas]

Okay this seems like a good place to ask, I asked in a thread about organic hydro instead a person gave me a coco recipe. How is it hydroponic at all. Worm castings, perlite, coco, whatever else in no way is hydroponic? It would be sludge and plug up any sort of system.

 

[indifferent]

its a waste of time talking about coco to someone who mixes it with dirt. they always have problems and cant figure it out, coco is an organic medium u treat like hydro. untill u get this you wont get coco-

You do like to chime in with negativity don't you? There are loads of commercial soilless mixes on sale that are coco-based, such as Biobizz All-Mix and Canna Terra. It's perfectly valid to use coco as the basis of a soilless mix. Many people do so and use it in a similar way to coco with top drippers or hand watering. Personally, having tried both, I prefer straight coco without the ammendments, apart from inert aeration materials such as diatomite or chunky perlite.

Okay this seems like a good place to ask, I asked in a thread about organic hydro instead a person gave me a coco recipe. How is it hydroponic at all. Worm castings, perlite, coco, whatever else in no way is hydroponic? It would be sludge and plug up any sort of system.

People generally use such mixes in run to waste systems, you can recirculate but it requires pump filter bags and other measures, it's not recommended due to the issues with particulates, sludge as you put it. Run to waste is not a problem though. I would suggest adding a ph buffer to a soilless mix, calcified seaweed or lime works well. I had ph issues using a coco based soilless mix and got lesser yield than i did with straight coco so I switched back, but to anyone using a soiless mix i would recommend adding a liming agent to buffer ph.

 

[rrog]

You had rising pH issues?? Interesting. Usually it's rising pH that you read about. As in my case.

 

[rrog]

The point is that cations are what cannot easily be flushed. That's also why I'll keep on repeatedly correcting people in the coco threads when they talk about reliable pH and EC readings from their coco grow runoff. Coco is different, but very easy to use. The people that take runoff readings are not necessarily having problems, but those readings are always incomplete. That is not disputable.

I've read your comment on that elsewhere and may have asked this before. Sorry if I did. It would seem to me that the ionic capacity of the coco would be maxed and stay monopolized as long as the pH were low and the Ca+ supply at some regular, moderate level. Essentially the conditioning some coco companies do.

This may be an oversimplification but I'm not seeing how the coco continues to affect things like the pH you've mentioned.

 

[Tokesome]

http://soils.tfrec.wsu.edu/webnutritiongood/soilprops/04CEC.htm

Hi LBG, does the chart refer to coco specifically when it says "soilless" mix?

Cheers, Toke

 

[~fvk~]

Need a lil help if you could. I really do appreciate.
I'm using Botanicare coco. I got it in bales. Putting it in 5 gal pots using RO water in a run to waste. Nutes are GH 3 part. I have diamond nectar for the fulvic acid. I'm sure you know that. Might use it as a foliar feed. I've always used GH never really messed with to many other base nutes. Supplements I have so many. Sugar daddy, budswel, sweet, EJ Catalyst, Gravity and some yellow bottle final. I'm gonna play with the sugars and blooms supplements on different plants to see what gets the job done right and tasty. Don't know how the coco is gonna react to them either. I'm gonna give them half the dose and see how much more they can take.

I trying to dial in the best lucas formula for the coco and using ro. Never really grew in just coco. I always did hydro with hydroton/gh coco cubes (they stopped making them) or rockwool cubes. My grow is way to large to do all hydro, so I turned to coco and hand feed with a wand. Soon as I get the nutes right, drip lines are there.

Need a veg/flower formula for my 3 part If you have any experiance with this? I am not a pro by any means and never used the lucas formula nor used ro water. So I know I'm missing some Cal and other trace elements from tap. Never had a problem in the past so why fix it. But now I have no choice.

I've always went by GH feeding program in my hydro grows and never had a problem. Plus I always used tap water. Where I am now water is 450ppm @.5 conversion, so I got a ro system. Plus I don't have the time or space to boil or air out my tap.

The coco does not like what I feed my hydro in the past. And now with the ro I am not looking to good. If you can help me in plain english lol I would be so thankful. Thank you for your time.

I use Botanicare bales too man and I've never used GH Grow in coco, just Micro and Bloom. Head's formula works out well for a lot of people in drain to waste, but depending on the size of your plants and the frequency/strength of feedings, you're more than likely going to have to supplement RO with either Cal/Mag or tap water. Lucas formula or Head's modified version doesn't use the Grow, so I'd just omit it and pick up on the learning curve, which is overall pretty simple. I have some huge mothers that are a couple weeks into flower right now in one gallon pots, and they're getting dripped once a day with both a tbsp of Micro and Bloom, along with like 3 ML of Cal/Mag, and a ML of Floracious Plus.

Not exactly Head or Lucas but the thing is, you're going to have to tweak the formulas to keep your plants happy. Anymore than 5 ML of Bloom for me with these plants is giving me slightly burnt tips, and if you use Diamond Nectar in in your nutrient solution, I'm sure your plants will be taking them up pretty damn easily. Too little is better than too much, and be careful with Sweet. So yeah, try using at least a half and half ratio of Micro and Bloom and progress to a 1/3 ratio in terms of strength of which caters to your plants' needs. If you pick up on however you approach GH nutes and coco pretty easily and quickly, I guess it's up to you to tweak with supplements, but I'd say that you would be better off keeping it simpler the first time around. If you want to use the Grow formula though, I can't really give you any advice, I use Micro and Bloom for all stages of growth.

 

[GrnMtnGrwr]

OBBT Medium:

44% Coco Brick
08% Medium size coco
11% Large Perlite
14% Large Vermiculite
23% Humus

Not quote soil, but with over 50% of the medium being coco, it's not pure coco either.

You're right, I was a bit fixated on the humus, which imo changes it from being a coco-mix to being a soil-mix. Your coco looks like it's the size of woodchips. Not what the majority of people picture when talking about coco. Why make a thread called, "Why use coco with all these known problems?" when you have no experience and no knowledge of it? Just look at all the amazing coco grows, it's easy to see that while there can be problems, just like with any other medium, it's a fantastic way to grow.

 

[BlindDate]

Hey RROG...You're not going to get much help here. No one has experience with such an oddball concoction of a media recipe. For good reason also. There is no point to what you are doing. When people try to tell you that, you blow them off as being negative and not contributing. The answer to your problem is not what you should do but rather what you should not have done.
(Patient) Hey doc please tell me how to run this marathon with a broken leg. (Doctor) You can't run with a broken leg. (Patient) Your so negative. Your not helping me. (Doctor) Yes I am dumbass. Don't run with a broken leg.

Get it?

 

[turbolaser4528]

You're right, I was a bit fixated on the humus, which imo changes it from being a coco-mix to being a soil-mix. Your coco looks like it's the size of woodchips. Not what the majority of people picture when talking about coco. Why make a thread called, "Why use coco with all these known problems?" when you have no experience and no knowledge of it? Just look at all the amazing coco grows, it's easy to see that while there can be problems, just like with any other medium, it's a fantastic way to grow.

wordd. where are the lines from that airpump going? im looking to do no runoff/wick method with coco and airlines/stones, is that what your doing? thnx

 

[rrog]

BlindDate, I've received a great deal of helpful information from a number of posters, so I don't agree at all that I'm not getting much help. I've had my questions answered and I now have a much better understanding of coco and its ionic properties. That was my goal.

What I see is that while I'm only specifically asking about the properties of coco, some here feel the need to introduce and discuss other broader aspects of a grow technique they want no part of. I'm not selling an alternate grow technique.

As I said earlier, I'm not here promoting anything. I'm not starting a religion. I came to the coco forum to ask coco specific questions of people who have coco specific knowledge.

You call something an oddball concoction. "No point to what I'm doing." I have the feeling you don't really know what I'm doing so why do you feel the need to comment in this manner? Be cool.

TurboLaser, the airlines go a rock/water layer in the bottom of the pails. The system is wick-based but also a run to res. It's just that the res is able to be bubbled / wicked up.

 

[GrnMtnGrwr]

How is it run to waste if the water sits at the bottom bubbling? It's not run to waste, it's no-waste.

 

[neoruler]

I am now on my 2nd grow in straight Canna coco using Canna nutes and the only thing that has gotten on my nerves to this point is that both times I have noticed salts building up around the top of the medium and after about 3-4 weeks of veg have had nute lockout resulting in me having to flush the coco for a week or so in order to get all the salts out and the ph/ppm back to a good range. Both times it happened salt built up, the ph dropped way down w/ my runoff, and the ppm skyrocketed.

Now I am not entirely sure whether this may be the result of the fact that neither time did I wet the coco prior to planting(nobody mentioned that part to me) and it took a couple weeks for it all to get wet, resulting in some problems...OR whether it is the fact that I did not realize until a couple of weeks into my 2nd round in coco that I was supposed to be amending my RO water with approximately 200ppm of some type of CalMag supplement. Woulda been nice of someone at my hydro shop to mention that or for Canna to put it in something other than micro-print on their nute feeding table. Funny thing is, I have a few other friends who have switched to coco over the past year or so and each and every one of them have had issues with magnesium deficiencies and salt buildup after about a month of growth and it took this long for any of us to find out about amending RO water with CalMag. My friends basically have been dealing w/ Mag deficiencies all throughout flower and wondering what has been going on the whole time for like three cycles now.

I REALLY hope that I got this figured out now and I think/hope that I do b/c now that I got some MagiCal and everything is back in the right ph/ppm range the plants look like theyre getting healthier. I'll definitely be able to tell in about another week, but I'm pretty confident I have this part of the equation solved.

There are a couple questions I have for you guys who are more familiar with coco than I am:

1). I have grown in soil in pots and done hydro in waterfarms in the past. When you guys are saying to treat coco like hydro when it comes to watering fequency are you saying like water several times a day or everyday or what? I have sort of been taking an "in-between" approach through my first/second grows in coco. I water till the growbags are pretty heavy and then basically wait until they are starting to get dry and are probably 1/2 or less weight than they were. It usually takes a one gallon bag with well developed plants 2 days, sometimes 3 to get to that point. That seems infrequent since everyone seems to be implying at least once a day watering. I am trying not to treat it like soil, but am a little confused about this aspect and have wondered if I might be seeing better results with more frequent waterings.

2). I see alot of people saying they feed nutes all the way through w/o flushing b/c coco does not react well to being flushed...but then I read other people saying that best method is more like a feed/water/feed/water regimen. That seems to be 2 pretty big extremes to me, given that one is saying to never ever use fresh water and the other is saying to use fresh water every other watering. The owner of my local hydro shop (and I am in a heavy growing area) who is very familiar w/ coco said in his opinion feed/water/feed/water is the best method in coco.

What are the prevailing opinions around here? And if you have any opinion regarding what may have been the cause of my salt buildup and ph issue/mag deficiency I would appreciate it.

 

[Castelvetro]

You do like to chime in with negativity don't you? There are loads of commercial soilless mixes on sale that are coco-based, such as Biobizz All-Mix and Canna Terra. It's perfectly valid to use coco as the basis of a soilless mix. Many people do so and use it in a similar way to coco with top drippers or hand watering. Personally, having tried both, I prefer straight coco without the ammendments, apart from inert aeration materials such as diatomite or chunky perlite.



People generally use such mixes in run to waste systems, you can recirculate but it requires pump filter bags and other measures, it's not recommended due to the issues with particulates, sludge as you put it. Run to waste is not a problem though. I would suggest adding a ph buffer to a soilless mix, calcified seaweed or lime works well. I had ph issues using a coco based soilless mix and got lesser yield than i did with straight coco so I switched back, but to anyone using a soiless mix i would recommend adding a liming agent to buffer ph.

read your opening statement and your second from closing.

you do like to hear yourself talk and proceed to talk about nothing, u closed with agreeing with me. thats negative.

 

[xmobotx]

The owner of my local hydro shop said in his opinion feed/water/feed/water is the best method in coco

the feed/water/feed cycle is so ingrained for me that I would struggle to adapt to constant feeding or str8 water