Why Use Coco With All These Known Problems?

[rrog]

I'm not using pre-made nutes

I'm running an OBBT. Many threads on the Organic Hydro Forum. I won't waste everyone's time describing why I did this, only that I did. I intend to again, but want to learn more about the unique properties of coco as I've said before on this thread.

 

[PoopyTeaBags]

you shouldnt get no prob if you use QUALITY COCO and flush just in case(i dont flush my coco) maybe cal mag depending on strain/nute combo and a coco dependent nute (which isnt needed but helps)

 

[xmobotx]

Yeah really

for A) tons of folks right here on this forum are having success treating coco as a potting soil and adding organic ammendments - no argument, straight coco may produce more explosive growth

for B) anyone who buys a bag of coco, pours it in a pot, and then follows a nute regimen off a bottle has no business telling someone who is actually growing their plants w/ a more complex method any pointers (unless they have successfully done so themself)

I've read repeated recipes - like 2 parts coco 1 part EWC 1 part perlite - that's what I did

Of course, treated like hydro and run w/ a nute regimen coco gives predictable results and produces fine looking vigorous plants

But, some of us might want to do so organic and even the bottled nutes which say they are organic may not be

So there's some legwork in it but coco can be used exactly the way we're talking and produce fine once dialed in - I'm looking at some corn which is doing real good (except I broke it over - but it's recovering well from that) AND, I did it mixing organic ammendments w/ poorly rinsed coco in an obbt which i feed w/ compost teas and fish emulsion

 

[SilverSurfer_OG]

Hey rrog.

If coco is giving you probs then i suggest:

LC's#1 Soiless recipe
Ph your nute mix to 5.8
Taste the water you hyrdrate the coco in... taste salty? Rinse till taste is gone..

Just work on the principle that less is more... especially when plants are young... once they are established well i have had no probs... and dont let the medium dry right out until the end... unless you doing the starve/feed thing.

Have fun!

 

[rrog]

Seems that those who have no issues are often using a pre-made nute solution. And that's fine.

The coco is effective and I guess there's no really good alternative. It holds water well and still allows for airflow. That's key for what Xmobotx and I are doing.

Some info I've found:

Coir has a very strong cation exchange ability, which means it can hold and release nutrient elements based on the plants needs.
Coir tends to release potassium and to withhold calcium.
Coir tends to retain nutrient salts. because of this, less nutrient (lower ec) is required.
On a less positive note, coir can also contain high levels of sodium (salt)....
If your growing in coir be aware that this can be a potential problem.
Either purchase a pre-flushed coir product or flush ph (5.5-6.0) stabilised water through the coir prior to use.
Measure the ec of the water and then measure the ec of the run off.
When they are the same, it is ready for use.
Large amounts of potassium are naturally present in coir.
Potassium competes with calcium and magnesium... buffering and plant nutrition needs to compensate for this!!

 

[rrog]

Surfer, how's it going, man?!

Not ready to give up on coco. For the OBBT, coco is really well suited (water retention and aeration) and seems to simply need some additional prep. More than the guides from DrunkenM and LadyL indicated.

In reading up on this, I've concluded that coco is unique and so I'll simply treat it more effectively prior to starting next time.

You're using the standard OBBT recipe Surfer?

 

[dunkybones]

Measure the ec of the water and then measure the ec of the run off.
When they are the same, it is ready for use.

This is the best measure for prepped coco.

 

[xmobotx]

Large amounts of potassium are naturally present in coir

for me this seems to be the major issue i call it 'the K thing'

w/ my test grow my problem showed as mild K def which I rectified by adding calc (as eggshell and gypsum) until i saw mag def then i added a little epsom (1/2 tsp/qt) by that point i was seeing over nute so i did a flush - just today i fed the first tea which i have balanced to compensate for 'the K thing'

in effect, i am 'pre-conditioning' my coco but w/ a test crop to see what the effects of my pre-con are

this brings me to my point

w/ so many folks arguing against amending coco as by using as a recipe ingredient in a potting mix, how can the product be pre-conditioned?

IOW, the manuf must be adding something to balance out the osmotic environment present in the coco

~

for my part, i was dealing w/ a bad scenario because i hadn't read quite enough to realize i needed to pre-rinse (let alone pre-condition) WHICH is probably good because i may have read enough to avoid coco for my project and missed learning that it is in fact quite effective for my purposes (w/ some compensation)

the garden is always a learning experience (about 12 yrs of learning for me so far) i don't pretend to know everything - and i don't really like to see someone else pretend either

anyway, coco apparently has it's drawbacks - which fail to outweigh it's benefits. at this point, i think i would prefer to do my own 'pre-conditioning' w/ raw/brick coco so I know what the method has been and what may be present in my environment

 

[LJB]

well while coco in general is verry good any medium is strain dependent. some strains just preform better in certain mediums...

any examples? My instinct and common sense is too say that you couldn't be any more wrong, but I've got an open mind.

 

[LJB]

The drainage pH is the best indicator as to what the medium pH is. I don't use nute solution. I use a pH meter to measure.[/COLOR]

Because of coco's cation exchange capacity, the runoff pH and EC are incomplete and unreliable. The best indicator of the medium pH is the performance of the plants.

 

[LJB]

Want to run coco? Go buy a bag of Canna coco.

Botanicare Cocogro Loose is another very good brand and usually less expensive than Canna. Right out of the bag - no rinsing.

 

[rrog]

Because of coco's cation exchange capacity, the runoff pH and EC are incomplete and unreliable. The best indicator of the medium pH is the performance of the plants.

I have plants exhibiting Zinc deficiency. I have low K and moderate P, per a little soil test kit from the hardware store. This was medium + runoff that was tested.

pH has been quite high. And I've been using very hard well water.

The performance of any plants could be affected by several factors, pH being just one of them. So when measuring a flush with a pH of 5.8 going in, and 24 hours later measuring 7.5 coming out, over the course of three days, something pH-related is in play. That much we could tell, couldn't we? This is after draining the water table.

Also if we assume that the coco's caton exchange has been bound up with Calcium, this system's effect on pH would seem to be minimal. In my mind, that is. I have no data either way.

I'm now wondering how much the coco could possibly be causing problems after all this time. Seems the coco would have been bound up to max with Calcium long ago, as Calcium is the preferred Cation.

I'm now wondering if maybe my hard well water isn't simply buffering pH up. Calcium carbonate = lime. I was told the system would tend to be very pH stable and that well water would have more trace minerals = good. However maybe this may not have been entirely accurate.

As part of my plant problem solution 3 days ago I eliminated the well water and upped K levels for three series of small rinses. Using CalMag+ conditioned water. Ph to 5.5 - 5.8. Green is returning to the leaves.

 

[Castelvetro]

coco affects ph little to none, ive checked my ph after three weeks of feeding, the run of that is, its spot on the same as it was when i put the nutes in, run the lucas or a modified lucas formula and call it a day, sick of hearing about cation exchange and all this, its all been worked out by experienced growers and we have the nute regimens on theese threads if u just look, i check no ph or run off ec period,im actually able like a normal grower to read my plants by how they look and how heavy the pots are, i just water every day or so and my plants thrive, like i said if u want to have a huge headache u can make one no problem , if u want super easy then buy good coco, skip the rinse, skip the cal mag , run a good nute and enjoy the ease of coco, it doesnt get any easier.

gh nutes, flora nova or flora series are a sure winner.. u start dicking around with tons of additives and your lost, go back to soil if u want soil and find peace in a magic micro heard that do it all for u all by themselves, if u want to put few teaspoons of nutes in a gallon and have near perfection try grat3ful3hads thread at the top, never seen better plants then when ive followed his advice. im just trying to make it easy not tell u how to do it, just save u work n headache or anybody else , coco is so easy that if i listend to all the other people on this thread about how to do it id be lost and confused. it comes down to water ph, for me straight unamended tap with my nutes puts the ph just right, im lucky. after that its the art of watering which is the art of growing. coco is easy, if its hard your doing it wrong-

the only thing ive learned is container size vers air temp vers watering frequency is grower specfic, u might have to tweek theese perameters a little to get things rolling initially to perfection if your say useing a big pot of coco in a cool room with a small plant u might to start out need to be carefull not to overwater. aside from that coco to me changes nothing in comparison to soil,, just faster bigger plants that u can water more often and oxygenate more as it works like hydro-

 

[LIFEISGOOD]

Is anyone using a chiller for their rez when running coco? And if so have you noticed any difference? It seems that it might help with multi feedings/watering per day? But it also seems like a strech?????

 

[rrog]

If you have an active micro-herd, no need for chillers.

I'm now of the opinion that the raw un-treated coco needs to be conditioned. Flushed of Na+ and K+. After being completely bound up by Ca+, it's likely fairly inert. My system tested low in K, so whatever high levels of K there were at one point seems to have washed away.

I'm also of the opinion that the high pH of my well water is the root cause of my issues (no pun).

Lastly, I'll be continuing to use RO water with dilute CalMag+ to bring the RO water to a more natural background mineral level. Then pH to 5.5.

We'll see how that goes. Thanks to all of the helpful posts.

 

[Castelvetro]

sounds like a plan, i wish u good luck, get that ph around 6 and u should be ok, if your water is way to alkaline try a brita filter also, brings down my ph by 2 points, i use it to flush soley as my nutes plust tap bring it down 2 points also. once your water is good u should be rolling-

 

[rrog]

I agree. My well water is sooo hard. I have a water softener, but that adds Na+ to the water, so I can't use that. So I run the softened water through the RO filtration system, and it comes out pretty darned good. Yaybe 40ppm of who knows what. Not salt, as I've had that tested. Likely a bit of remaining Cal or Mag, which is why I'll proceed with a diluted CalMag+ addition.

I think this is what caused me problems in my last grow, which was drip chem fert hydro. Constant pH down used.

Other than this hiccup, I'm really pleased with the grow. Would never go back to pure hydro. The organic blend of "soil" and hydro that I have is where I'd like to stay.

 

[rrog]

Just a quick question. I hate to be ignorant with this, but do the pre-made organic coco nutes treat the micro-herd OK?

 

[Castelvetro]

i cant help u there, ive eliminated the middle man from my plan-

 

[rrog]

But you use nutes, right?