Who's working on C99?

[Dr. Bloom]

I think what Johnny meant is that you can't simply cube any plant combined with any other plant and have it work. You need the initial outcross to be with a male that will provide mostly recessive genes to the cross. By then using the cubing process you should end up recreating the original strain pretty accurately, but only if the genetics from the male in the first cross have been pushed to the backseat in the cubing process. If the original male that you choose is very dominant, it will be very hard to make this happen, even over many generations.

For example, C99 seems to be very dominant. Using it as the male in a cubing program will make it very hard if not impossible to rid the C99 qualities from your later generations. If this happens you will never recreate the strain that you originally intended to, although you might end up with an interesting cross nonetheless.



Lol, I also can't wait to get some of the pure C99 coming out soon. Hopefully i'll get to try versions from a couple different breeders, but I think i'll be happy with any one of them.

 

[Johnny Chimpo]

Here's a post by Chimera which will hopefully clarify what I was trying to say a little better.

Chimera
loose cannon

Registered: Jan 2001
Posts: 960
Overgrow Sponsor

Hi Beast

you’ve just discovered the biggest myth (IMNSHO) of marijuana breeding- it is a mistake that almost EVERYONE makes (including many of the most respected breeders!).

Backcrossing will not stabilize a strain at all- it is a technique that SHOULD be used to reinforce or stabilize a particular trait, but not all of them.

For e.g.- G13 is a clone, which I would bet my life on is not true breeding for every, or even most traits- this means that it is heterozygous for these traits- it has two alleles (different versions of a gene). No matter how many times you backcross to it, it will always donate either of the two alleles to the offspring. This problem can be compounded by the fact that the original male used in the cross (in this case hashplant) may have donated a third allele to the pool- kinda makes things even more difficult!

So what does backcrossing do?
It creates a population that has a great deal of the same genes as the mother clone. From this population, if enough plants are grown, individuals can be chosen that have all the same traits as the mother, for use in creating offspring that are similar (the same maybe) as the original clone.
Another problem that can arise is this- there are three possibilities for the expression of a monogenic (controlled by one gene pair) trait.

We have dominant, recessive, and co-dominant conditions.

In the dominant condition, genotypically AA or Aa, the plants of these genotypes will look the same (will have the same phenotype, for that trait).

Recessive- aa will have a phenotype

Co-dominant- Aa- these plants will look different from the AA and the aa.

A perfect example of this is the AB blood types in humans:

Type A blood is either AA or AO
Type B blood is either BB or BO
Type AB blood is ONLY AB
Type O blood is OO.

In this case there are three alleles (notated A, B, and O respectively).

If the clone has a trait controlled by a co-dominant relationship- i.e. the clone is Aa (AB in the blood example) we will never have ALL plants showing the trait- here is why:

Suppose the clone mother is Aa- the simplest possibility is that the dad used contributes one of his alleles,
let us say A. That mean the boy being use for the first backcross is either AA or Aa. We therefore have two possibilities:

1) If he is AA- we have AA X Aa- 50% of the offspring are AA, 50% are Aa. (you can do the punnett square to prove this to yourself).

In this case only 50% of the offspring show the desired phenotype (Aa genotype)!

2) If the boy being used is Aa- we have Aa X Aa (again do the punnett square) this gives a typical F2 type segregation- 25% AA, 50% Aa, and 25% aa.
This shows that a co-dominant trait can ONLY have 50% of the offspring showing the desired trait (Aa genotype) in a backcross.

If the phenotype is controlled by a dominant condition- see example #1- all 100% show the desired phenotype, but only 50% will breed true for it.

If the phenotype is controlled by a recessive condition- see example #2- only 25% will show the desired phenotype, however if used for breeding these will all breed true if mated to another aa individual.

Now- if the original dad (hashplant) donates an 'a' allele, we only have the possibilities that the offspring, from which the backcross boy will be chosen, will be either Aa or aa.
For the Aa boy, see #2.
For the aa boy (an example of a test cross, aa X Aa) we will have:
50% aa offspring (desired phenotype), and 50% Aa offspring.

Do you see what is happening here? Using this method of crossing to an Aa clone mother, we can NEVER have ALL the offspring showing the desired phenotype! Never! Never ever ever! Never!! LOL

The ONLY WAY to have all the offspring show a Aa phenotype is to cross an AA individual with an aa individual- all of the offspring from this union will be the desired phenotype, with an Aa genotype.

Now, all of that was for a Aa genotype for the desired phenotype. It isn't this complicated if the trait is AA or aa. I hope this causes every one to re-evaluate the importance of multiple backcrosses- it just doesn't work to stabilize the trait!

Also- that was all for a monogenic trait! What if the trait is controlled by a polygenic interaction or an epistatic interaction- it gets EVEN MORE complicated? AARRGH!!!!

Really, there is no need to do more than 1 backcross. From this one single backcross, as long as we know what we are doing, and grow out enough plants to find the right genotypes, we can succeed at the goal of eventually stabilizing most, if not all of the desired traits.

The confusion arises because we don't think about the underlying biological causes of these situations- to really understand this; we all need to understand meiosis.

We think of math-e.g. 50% G13, 50% hashplant

Next generation 50% G13 x 50% g13hp or (25% G13, 25%HP)

We interpret this as an additive property:
50% G13 + 25% G13 +25% HP = 75% G13 and 25% hashplant

This is unfortunately completely false- the same theory will apply for the so called 87.%% G13 12.5% HP next generation, and the following 93.25% G13, 6.25% HP generation; we'd like it to be true as it would make stabilizing traits fairly simple, but it JUST DOESN'T work that way. The above is based on a mathematical model, which seems to make sense- but it doesn't- we ignore the biological foundation that is really at play.

I hope this was clear, I know it can get confusing, and I may not have explained it well enough- sorry if that is the case, I'll try to clear up any questions or mistakes I may have made.

Have fun everyone while making your truebreeding varieties, but just remember that cubing (successive backcrosses) is not the way to do it!
-Chimera

JC

 

[ticktickbong]

Very informative post JC.
Ever wondered what happened to MrSoul? What happened to the Grimm Bros? Where are these guys, or have they opted out of the canna community? Does it matter who in fact produces the cindy? I have never heard of 'better' or 'worse' rumours yet other than that the original is almost impossible to find. Fact?

 

[Pops]

Johnny, i understand the genetics involved and realize that careful selection will have to be made to get the traits that I want to keep for the Afghan Bullrider. I have some AB x PD males that seem very AB dominant. i will have to make careful selection as I go along and may have to have several lines going at any one time. In the end, I may not wind up with what I want. I read Chimeras comment a long time ago and agree with him. It is best used to fix certain traits. I am doing it for fun, not for money. It won't happen for some time, as I am currently in a project to find high CBD strains that may take me a couple years. I have several land race Afghans, Paki Hindu Kushes and Himalayan charas strains to grow out and test first.

 

[zolar]

i had great results with cindy 99 my first grow i only wish i did it all soil and kep[t a mother but my space is small and i lost most of my clone attempts

will be trying JW's apollo11xc99 as soon as i get beans

i hope female seeds revives their line or has some soon

any one know a good seedbank that'll backorder for you so i can send
some of uncle sams stimulis check to reserve some

 

[BirdDawg]

Several years ago we decided to take the plunge and start growing...just enough for personal, you know. With limited space and funds, we decided we would try two strains, each of us choosing one. My choice was something called Grimm99 I found at Heaven's Stairway. Just the description sounded delicious! I ran across Mr.Soul's detailed "pedigree" and read it avidly. As a dog breeder, I understood the process of cubing - or inbreeding, to set type. So we bought a pack of seeds, and from that first harvest we knew we had a keeper. Sadly, we knew nothing about clones, but we had more seeds and learned fast the second time around! In between we've tried the GN collection's version but were disappointed in both taste and odor, tho the yield was great and the plant bushy and equally early to finish. Today, we're still running Grimm's C99 from clones. It's still our all time favorite smoke, and has astounded many friends who've had opportunity to try it. Talk about beginner's luck!! We feel very fortunate to have this wonderful, original C99 plant!

Our very first Grimm C99

 

[strained]

are you certain grimm99 and c99 are one and the same?

it seems a bit shady heavens stairway would call it grimm99

 

[Johnny Chimpo]

Johnny, i understand the genetics involved and realize that careful selection will have to be made to get the traits that I want to keep for the Afghan Bullrider. I have some AB x PD males that seem very AB dominant. i will have to make careful selection as I go along and may have to have several lines going at any one time. In the end, I may not wind up with what I want. I read Chimeras comment a long time ago and agree with him. It is best used to fix certain traits. I am doing it for fun, not for money. It won't happen for some time, as I am currently in a project to find high CBD strains that may take me a couple years. I have several land race Afghans, Paki Hindu Kushes and Himalayan charas strains to grow out and test first.

Nice...I have some small personal "breeding" projects of my own. A spin-off to growing to keep me busy. I hope you find what you're looking for Pops.



JC

 

[Doco]

The Female Seeds X-Line C-99 that I just finished was disappointing. Very mediocre buzz, although it is good daytime, creative high. It was just one pheno but she is supposed to be pretty true breeding. Ive done others in soil from the same pack that were better, especially the aroma & taste. Still, there were no "Holy Grails" in my 10 beans - I'll probably try Rez's when it's released.

 

[aLLHoppedUp]

For what it's worth I have some C99xPurpleOregonThai going right now. I took one of the males and pollinated some WhiteWidow clones so this should be interesting. My plants smell like pinapple and juicy fruit gum.. yummy. I've yet to smoke it so i'm looking forward to this one.
What does pure C99 smell like?

 

[Doco]

Mine were pineapple and grapefruit, leaning towards grapefruit after a good 90 day cure.

 

[aLLHoppedUp]

Thanks for the reply Doco.

 

[titoon29]

C99 from Female Seeds was amazing, i don't know where you did find bad comments.
I had an hermie on 4 seeds, but one pheno was one of the tastiest pot i've grown, nice high, but the taste and smell were what make her so special !







Can't wait for wally's release !

++

 

[skar]

i second what titoon said..i smoked some of his C99 and i've seen his plants they were all killers cindy's.

i was gifted 5 C99 F5 from Wally's stock recently..can't wait to pop them !

peace

 

[highclasscandy]

this is a C99 F4 by JLP




...still 4 weeks to go

 

[zolar]

could someone pm me as to who has c99 that ships to the states

i'll have uncle sams stimulis soon and i really want to get back to c99

 

[Wonderon]

...

...

They had a few c99x auctions on the bay as specials this weekend.

 

[guest123]

heres a couple of snaps of some cindy flowers ,,, they are in full bloom now , but i just need to be sure the seeds are full ,, ready and ripe before i take the plunge with them ...
the shots were from a few weeks ago ....