When Is a Strain "Yours"?

[Tony21]

Original breeders, what is that and why are they somehow owed something?

Presumably they got their genetics from somewhere and thus also owe someone..... How far back does all this owing go?



It's the legal situation that creates this circus, which means canna doesn't fall under the usual plant registration and royalty rules and regulations.



Personally, if I was breeding which I'm not, I would consider any cross I made mine from the get go, maybe give credit if it was worth it for marketing purposes, otherwise why bother
Good real breeders like ACE Seeds, Mr. Nice, etc. actually encouraged people to do their own crosses, knowing full well its not competition, but smart marketing and it works just fine both ways!

 

[ReikoX]

Like Budwiser?

Exactly like Budweiser. There is room for mass produced cannabis, craft cannabis, and home grown (brewed) cannabis.

 

[kickarse]

I got mine from where they came from

don't owe anybody, except a couple of mates, for some shit
they brought back some pot with a few seeds in it, from elsewhere

if they are others they are called, "Ace pollen chucks" for example

 

[Americangrower]

First off Bud light is my go to on a hot day...FOK micro BS if I want a beer that taste like pine I will drink a bud and suck on a pinecone.


Now as for breeding it's pretty simple... since we are talking topdawg it goes like this

As a seed maker/seller..

You cross Stardawg to say Bubblegum you then find a male in that cross and do as you want with it. Now if you are talking personnel stash then if you paid for seeds THEY ARE yours to do as you want.

 

[grayeyes]

AG,

You are a thief and full of sh***! Intellectual property is just that.

I can just imagine the look on your face when you receive a summons and complaint from a MAJOR intellectual property firm.

When you get to pay the $500 an hour bill for what you are admittedly doing you will see the error of your ways. They might bill 200 hours. GRIN.

 

[Gauss]

The requisition of intellectual property does not intrinsically constitute theft in my own opinion. Theft implies someone goes without the property you've stolen, the key to that dynamic being the property itself and not the exclusive rights to it, whereas requisitioning parts of it for the market spreads it to many people and may or may not provide profit to the originator in tangential ways. If you make a collage of other artworks, is it still not art given you didn't rob and destroy the original paintings and pictures to do so? In that case, nobody goes without if awareness of the original work is raised intrinsically.

Personally I see breeders as artists and their work can directly inspire and contribute to the work of others. When the work of others containing my own work is popularized I in turn become more credible in the market, but if that work is unremarkable or uses only the worst parts of my own material then I would of course resent the representation of it within their own work. My only metric is the consent from the originator of the strain's personal opinion, be it contractual or anecdotal. I won't breed other people's shit if they don't want me to. If I make a cross that's not up to their standards of representation then I wouldn't sell it. What I would do is sell as many of the seeds that I can ethically sell to continue breeding efforts, because that's what I enjoy after spending a lot of time just growing whatever shit for other people. I like getting into the dirt within the mud, but that's me now and how I would like my work to be handeld by others.

I think it comes down to personal accountability and credibility on a case by case basis. I have never bred with the intention of marketing genetics for profit, not that I'm hot shit anyways, but I think in a lot of cases true breeders really only sell their seeds to fund their breeding habit. Those are the true artists and that's what they care about at the end of the day. As long as you have permission and are adding equity to their reputation in regard to the genetics that you sell— by citing their work appropriately and/or reimbursing them financially as agreed or requested then you can do no wrong. That is the only path through the situation that I can see which would be fair for every person. It's basically just the golden rule. In my case it might be more strict and maybe I'm a butthole for it, but that is how I feel about it and I won't let my genetics out at all due to how the ethics of the market are trending in the changing political and cultural climate of today, because it's admittedly too idealistic for most people to adhere to.

 

[kamyo]

Technically, like others have said, it's yours when you buy the pack. There's no real legal protocol for that, although I suspect as people realize how much money is in pot and legalization continues, this may change in the next 5-10 years.

Ethics is a different story, although it will always fall behind money in business. It's not what is right - it's what will hold up I'm court. If I ever get to the point of having something special, I'd probably reach out to the original breeders and start there. But in the case of these og cookie glue bubble diesel dawgs, I think it probably depends on how much the person I got my stock from actually worked with their genetics before sending them out to the masses. A lot harder to pin down who "owns" something that's been selfed or whored out to the point of obscure ambiguity.

But in the end, we're all scratching off lottery tickets.

 

[baduy]

Claiming property on the living is bad be it coming from a big Co or a hobby grower it's just better off people with access to technology which have been (willingly or not) screwing indigenous heirloom growers who didn't know what a lawyer was for decades now ( and in the case of an illegal plant no legal recourse anyway)
If I reject the notion for philosophical and ethical reasons when it comes from Monsanto and their high-tech research labs I don't see a reason why a cannabis breeder working in a closet should be given more credit, like it's a crime not to honour his name but the generations of farmers without whom nothing would be possible in the first place get nothing, just a generic label like "Highland Thai" or "Colombian" written in the lineage
This neverending debate is biased from the start. Descendants of families who have been keeping strains for generations are now factory workers in big cities slums and we are supposed to be super cautious not to mess with the intellectual property of some westerner chucking pollen in a basement for F6 F7 and so on, we have such a high opinion of ourselves and our 1 to 1 matings. People selling F2 of someone else's cross is a thief for sure and it's unethical but the whole seed industry is built above a massive rip-off.
I really hope equatorial third world countries will take over the cannabis market in the future, we don't deserve it.
Sorry for the negativity but this debate i going since far too long, won't be long before the youth consider cannabis culture to be just a bunch of boring bitter old guys ranting about some obscure intellectual property issues

 

[Gry]

Neat hearing from Gypsy and Mr Greengenes on the subject.

 

[Gypsy Nirvana]

You can't really 'own' nature - but it is ethical and decent to let those who purchase or are gifted seeds/cuts know of the real lineage of the plant - as far as can be told/is known.


Just informing growers of what region the genetics originated from is good - and if a breeder has spent time working with the plant before it was passed on then the breeder/seed company should be mentioned -

 

[dank.frank]

If you buy Stank Bros seed, then you bought a genetic line...you own it, it is yours. Do as you wish!

As far as I'm concerned, you purchased a genetic line...it is now yours.

This is my personal stance on this topic. That aside, as a person working in a professional capacity with others in the same field, it is courtesy, to respect their personal wishes as well.

That weaves a complicated web, but those who are sincere, find like minded people to work with and collaborate with - and no drama ensues.

Then you have those with absolutely no regard for anything or anyone other than themselves, and you get companies like Greenpoint.



dank.Frank

 

[Americangrower]

Well you could always just say FU to all the seed companies that only care about making money. There are plenty of grower's out there that make seeds and sell/gift them. Simply because they love this plant and want it spread world wide.
A perfect example of this is a IC brother who sent me seeds from across the pond for nothing. Just because of his love of the plant. He could have easily said no or charged me $$. Shite he didn't even except postage. No restrictions except to grow and respect the plant. There are good people out there. Just look for people's post here and IG that show love and passion. Not $$$$ signs.

 

[rolandomota]

If you grow it's yours just like any seed company they all grow things an claim they are the owners lol right and they don't pay anyone anything so why should my seeds be any different? They all stole their strains at some point once they make seeds it's "theirs" so if I make seeds then their mine
I collect Mexico commercial import seeds they are mine not the guy who sold me the weed or made them but mine because I saved them

 

[Mr. Greengenes]

then at least the original breeder and the lineage should be mentioned on the seed pack

Gypsy is right, but for reasons that go beyond just ethics. The actual $ value of seeds is increased by the information that goes with them. You're paying for a product which is both a consumable and intellectual property. Breeders who hide (or lose track of) the lineage of their seeds are just reducing the over all value.

 

[White Beard]

Like so many other things, it tends toward the usual split somehow:

There are those concerned with what they can own and get returns on, and those who care about what they can *do* - and more than that.

If I were to get two free seeds - say a white widow fem and a skunk - and were to end up with a ton of seeds, those seeds are surely mine, they grew in my house on the plants I planted...but I haven’t “made” something, I’ve witnessed cannabis reproduction is all, an ongoing experiment. If I want to consider it “mine”, as in a unique product, then AFAIC I need to do something with it in order to say “I did this”. That sounds like selecting seed for at least several generations, and performing at least one back-cross in pursuit of my uniqueness, and possibly bringing in a third genetic source, or even more, to complement my goals.

I agree w/ MrGreenGenes, the lineage/sourcing/etc IS IP and is most definitely of value...otherwise my inattentive batch of seeds is just another skunk/widow cross. If we’re actually trying to leave tracks for others to interpret and learn from, we owe it to ourselves and everybody else to keep accurate track of what we can, and to pass it on.

I think we’ve got the Budweiser bud covered, given reports from the legal states, but for serious breeding efforts, that sounds like the land of the devoted, more then the dispensary scene.

 

[kaneboy]

Soon as I buy them their mine,like said so many times before someone owned it before me and so on and on,different names same genetics,if they take the money so be it game on ,spread the love lol

 

[Gauss]

Gypsy is right, but for reasons that go beyond just ethics. The actual $ value of seeds is increased by the information that goes with them. You're paying for a product which is both a consumable and intellectual property. Breeders who hide (or lose track of) the lineage of their seeds are just reducing the over all value.

This is something I'd like to see a lot more from merchants, maybe that's an unrealistic expectation of seed banks, but definitely breeders. If It were me then I'd have a webpage showing pictures of both selected parents and their growing traits, who the original breeders were, who the growers of those parents were, and tons of tips on how to get the most out of the genetics straight from the horse's mouth. On the seedpacks I would print out the website to refer people to the information which I couldn't fit on the physical seed packs.

You're lucky to get more than just germination tips on most seed packs these days, I literally have vegetable seed packs with better instructions and background information.

 

[White Beard]

Yeah, if we can flood the world with more genuine high-grade cannabis than we can USE, then we can really begin to practice our various crafts and follow our hearts without fear

 

[GOT_BUD?]

Well you could always just say FU to all the seed companies that only care about making money. There are plenty of grower's out there that make seeds and sell/gift them. Simply because they love this plant and want it spread world wide.
A perfect example of this is a IC brother who sent me seeds from across the pond for nothing. Just because of his love of the plant. He could have easily said no or charged me $$. Shite he didn't even except postage. No restrictions except to grow and respect the plant. There are good people out there. Just look for people's post here and IG that show love and passion. Not $$$$ signs.

Same here.

 

[yardgrazer]

People don't really have a legal claim to intellectual property when it comes to bred plants. Genetically-modified, sure, but not the old-fashioned selection method.

Ethically? I don't see a problem distributing cross seeds you made unless there was some sort of agreement about not doing so. But like others have said, credit your sources.