What to use for Organic PH up?

[Redbuddz]

High All


So I'm currently growing in a soilless medium and I'm using Botanicares Pro series nutrients and supplements and I'm wanting to start using an organic PH up. I've done some reading and I have found that people are using Humic Acids to raise PH. I have concerns with using the humic acid so I'm looking for some advice and help. From what I seen Humic acid would get added at a rate of about 1-3ml/gallon. What if I need more to raise the ph? Can too much Humic acid hurt my plants? What are you guys using and at what rates is it being used?

Thanks all

Redbudd

 

[rasputin]

I know a couple guys who have always used ProTekt for their pH up. Have you tried that?

Maybe use some sodium bicarbonate aka baking soda? It is allowed for organic farming but that isn't necessarily a key detail. Some stuff that is allowed should't be and some that isn't should be. It's a wacky world.

You can definitely over apply humic acid. Using it routinely to adjust pH doesn't seem like a particularly good idea but, to be fair, I have never tried it. I use humic acid but not for pH.

 

[Redbuddz]

Thanks for your input Rasputin. I will look into the ProTekt. From what I read the baking soda can be bad when used repeatedly? What Humic acid are you using and at what rate are you using it? I'm growing in a Soilless medium, what about you?

 

[aridbud]

The most common method of raising pH is by adding lime to the soil. There are several kinds of lime. Do not use builders lime or quicklime; they will fry your plants. The preferred limes for garden use are hydrated lime and ground lime.

 

[Redbuddz]

Rasputin. I see ProTekt and Botanicare's Silica Blast are the same product but ProTekt is a higher strength. People talk of using them and other silica supplements to raise the ph but they all agree to not go beyond the recommended dosage. I'm thinking the use of a Humic acid has more benefits then the silicas?

 

[Granger2]

If you're using Liq. Karma, you don't need more Humic/Fulvic. Earth Juice pH Up is Potassium bicarbonate, acceptable for organic production. I wouldn't make a choice between Silica and Humates. They are used for different purposes. Good luck. -granger

 

[watts]

potassium bicarbonate

 

[EclipseFour20]

Hmmm, when did the "organic rules" change to allow the use of Potassium Silicate (ProTekt) as a plant or soil amendment? I know potassium silicate can be used (with restrictions) as an insecticide and for disease control--but..."the the silica, used in the manufacture of potassium silicate, must be sourced from naturally occurring sand." (7 CFR 205.601 - Synthetic substances allowed for use in organic crop production)...link to earlier Potassium Silicate discussion...https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=244553 BTW, I can not find anything from ProTekt that discloses their source of silica....is it from sand or slag?

So what other "organic" PH up products are available...since potassium silicate is on the forbidden list? Oh...I can think of lots of organic liming agents--but they must be mixed in the soil to be effective (dolomite, shells, wood ash, etc).

Cheers!

 

[rasputin]

Don't feed troll... don't feed troll.

Rockbudz, I use a liquid humic from BioAg and mix some powder form into my soil. The soil has some already so I use the powder sparingly, the liquid is used at 15-30mL per gallon maybe once a week. I've never used it for the purpose of raising pH so I can't help ya there.

 

[sprinkl]

I know a couple guys who have always used ProTekt for their pH up. Have you tried that?

Maybe use some sodium bicarbonate aka baking soda? It is allowed for organic farming but that isn't necessarily a key detail. Some stuff that is allowed should't be and some that isn't should be. It's a wacky world.

You can definitely over apply humic acid. Using it routinely to adjust pH doesn't seem like a particularly good idea but, to be fair, I have never tried it. I use humic acid but not for pH.

Wouldn't baking soda give Na+ toxicity? Na+ is toxic even in small doses...

 

[rasputin]

Possibly. I haven't used it, personally. I was spit balling some ideas for rockbudz and maybe baking soda is a bad idea long term? Grow in soil and skip the pH bullshit altogether! hehehe I know people have used it to up pH but I was also told by a guy who tried it that he thought it was impractical so maybe he was alluding to what you mention. Potassium bicarbonate is likely a better option than baking soda, kudos Granger and watts.

 

[Redbuddz]

Lots of people saying to use ProTekt or other similar silica product to raise PH. Does anyone know if excess use of silica would be harmful?

 

[EclipseFour20]

lol...rasp, I forgot who you were, sorry--not trolling. Just that I too have been unsuccessful in my search for an aqueous solution that will raise ph...which I believe is the OP's original quest.

Take a chill pill...and lets have a civil conversation and agree to disagree when the occasion arises. Now, if I am factually incorrect, please point it out and correct me--learning from others is sometimes the best way.

Cheers man!

 

[EclipseFour20]

Lots of people saying to use ProTekt or other similar silica product to raise PH. Does anyone know if excess use of silica would be harmful?

There are studies that concluded excess use of Potassium Silicate can retard growth....with results similar to plants that had little to zero; but in all tests, there was a "sweet spot" amount where the plant demonstrated excellent results. My go to source of silica (plant available too) is Fossil Shell Flour (food grade DE from fresh water sources).

Cheers!

 

[captinahab]

In hydro i can change the ph anytime i want by making the ppm more strong or diluted. Once i had 1400 ppms on the meter the ph was right on. I stopped using my ph meter or adding ups or downs years ago. I put a ring around the trunchton at the 1400 mark and gave my ph meter away.

The stuff i was adding to ph up or ph down was not needed and just threw everything else out of wack. For example using lime can screw up your cal mag ratio. Your basicaly doing hydo so whats the ppm meter read when your mix is ready to pour in(before ph test are done). Bet its either low or high of 1400 telling you that your mix is either to strong or to weak.

Throwing ph up or down in is just curbing your mix long enough for you to get a good reading..... while masking a improper solution ratio thats going to show up as another deficency or burn your plants (either low or high levels).

Just for shits and giggles get out a bucket and try it for fun. You can pour it down the drain if you want.... so no worry about hurting your plants

 

[rasputin]

Lots of people saying to use ProTekt or other similar silica product to raise PH. Does anyone know if excess use of silica would be harmful?

I think it certainly can be. How much do you think you'll have to use? I can't imagine you would need more than 1 tsp per gallon, no? Honestly, I don't pH shit so I am admittedly a poor choice to go too deep into this matter because I'm not familiar with what amount of ProTekt, or other liquid silica, is necessary to raise pH a certain amount. I just know a couple guys who personally use it at 5mL per gal and for them it kills 2 birds with 1 stone, they get a silica additive along with some pH up.

That said, pH as only a number value is only half the picture. (edit: should've read captinahab's post, he is spelling this point out very well and he grows hydro so you're getting some straight dope) The elements in your solution/medium play an equally important role. Your pH could be low at 6.2 because it is low in calcium. Add more calcium, replacing hydrogen, and pH rises. Or it might need magnesium. Or potassium. Adding silica or dolomite alone might raise the number but not address the nutrient imbalance, if there is one, and could actually make things worse, as dolomite does with magnesium often times.

How low is your solution pH prior to raising it, otherwise? What kinda numbers are you dealing with already?

lol...rasp, I forgot who you were, sorry--not trolling. Just that I too have been unsuccessful in my search for an aqueous solution that will raise ph...which I believe is the OP's original quest.

Take a chill pill...and lets have a civil conversation and agree to disagree when the occasion arises. Now, if I am factually incorrect, please point it out and correct me--learning from others is sometimes the best way.

Cheers man!

If you're serious about that, then let's do it. Two (or more) heads is always better than one.

There are studies that concluded excess use of Potassium Silicate can retard growth....with results similar to plants that had little to zero; but in all tests, there was a "sweet spot" amount where the plant demonstrated excellent results. My go to source of silica (plant available too) is Fossil Shell Flour (food grade DE from fresh water sources).

Cheers!

Yeah, if he's not opposed to using a dry amendment that could work. I think for rockbudz purpose though he needs a liquid solution rather than a dry amendment. Let's ask him...

Rockbuds, what is your soilless medium, exactly? Is it coco?

 

[captinahab]

From my notebook (someone elses words)

"In organic soil (aka living soil) you also do not adjust the ph. The microbes control the ph and the plant controls the microbs. CAC(cation exchange capacity)... humic substances and clay will hold calcium ions wherr they can be exchanged with other cautions for uptake by the roots.

Thats how humic substances and clay play the role they do in maintning the p.h. (to many free ions without a home to land on).

Trying to amend ones way to successful gardening is basicaly an attempt to appy the concepts of hydoponics to soil.

Pointless as usual "

So it looks like soil people dont p.h. either...i really do not see the need for p.h. meters at all.... but i still am curious what your ppm is with your normal base food without ph adjustment?

I would play with it... and more base or water till the solution reads a ph of what you want(although plants will change the p.h. to their own liking). Good chance if the p.h. is good then its a ballanced drink for the girls... hey i guess i do have a use for ph meters after all.

 

[Redbuddz]

Thanks for the info Ahab but I'm not so sure that 1400ppm is always going to get you a perfect PH? I have heard from some others that they also do not measure PH and instead use PPM. I will try using my EC/PPM meter and see what levels I'm getting with my Nutrient mix. I'm using Botanicare's Pro series and I'm following their feed chart so I believe that some form of PH up/down has to be used?. I'm guessing that my PH issues are being caused from the tap water I'm using which has a PH of 8+

Seems like I'm getting varying answers and I suppose that's because everyone is using different sources of water as well as different nutrients/supplements.

 

[Gelado`]

You absolutely should adjust pH with organics; think terra preta. You can use char or ash to amend your pH and it adds nutrients too (I get potassium and silica from rice hull charcoal ).

http://www.biochar.info/biochar.biochar-overview.cfml

 

[Gelado`]

pH just tells you the acidity/alkalinity; there are lots of other solutes that you have to worry about besides hydrogen ions. PPM is useful, but not so much with organics unless your water is contaminated/hard/etc.