without directing things to homzygote genepairs,,, this can happen
__A_ a
A AA Aa
a Aa aa
never seen aa beffore now
__A_ a
A AA Aa
a Aa aa
never seen aa beffore now
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What Male to use in a cross?
- Thread starter groady-ho
- Start date
just for the peeps who dont kow
think about polygeneric traits
hutch said:
think about polygeneric traits
An Aa individual is not homozygous...
good lookin,,,sorry man my mistake
by hutch said:
sorry again...
by hutch said:
Nvisionary,
"I didnt mean to say that every single seedlot in the world was mixed yet."
>>>You didn't mean to say it? Or you didn't mean to be challenged on it?
"improvement of drug cannabis that arose was entirely caused by the genetic distance of the First Hybrids. Thats almost gone completely now."
"we have already addressed the fact that land races are not intact anymore"
"The Original gene pools are gone"
>>>I know exactly what you're meaning, and implying, and trying to do out of desperation. I share these feelings too, again, you're not the only grown-up in the room.
When you are ready to admit that you're far from figuring this all out -that Gypsy and I did not cause all this, that source populations have had their own problems without us, that there is a shitload more to it than genetic distance which is still very much intact in the real world, that beneficial work can still be done in todays environment, etc, etc, etc....
when this
"I am willing to cut ANYONE slack that TRIES"
...Is something more than just bullshit, then give me a call and count me in. For real. -Tom
"I didnt mean to say that every single seedlot in the world was mixed yet."
>>>You didn't mean to say it? Or you didn't mean to be challenged on it?
"improvement of drug cannabis that arose was entirely caused by the genetic distance of the First Hybrids. Thats almost gone completely now."
"we have already addressed the fact that land races are not intact anymore"
"The Original gene pools are gone"
>>>I know exactly what you're meaning, and implying, and trying to do out of desperation. I share these feelings too, again, you're not the only grown-up in the room.
When you are ready to admit that you're far from figuring this all out -that Gypsy and I did not cause all this, that source populations have had their own problems without us, that there is a shitload more to it than genetic distance which is still very much intact in the real world, that beneficial work can still be done in todays environment, etc, etc, etc....
when this
"I am willing to cut ANYONE slack that TRIES"
...Is something more than just bullshit, then give me a call and count me in. For real. -Tom
Tom
What do you think of that C AM landrace? What about it did you consider of value or were you simply implying that the Dutch haven't invaded everywhere...yet.
What do you think of that C AM landrace? What about it did you consider of value or were you simply implying that the Dutch haven't invaded everywhere...yet.
nvisionary
Member
TomHill,TH: Nvisionary,
"I didnt mean to say that every single seedlot in the world was mixed yet."
>>>You didn't mean to say it? Or you didn't mean to be challenged on it?
>> No I dont mind. I think you have misinterpreted what Ive been saying.
TH(nvis)"improvement of drug cannabis that arose was entirely caused by the genetic distance of the First Hybrids. Thats almost gone completely now."
>>This statement was in reference to the fact that the First crosses did not require longterm -or even insightful- breeding work to be better than their individual parents.(Skunk#1,Haze,NL)
Modern polyhybrid cannabis(which you ALSO work with, right?) has become more INTER-RELATED through amateur breeding with small populations and do not provide the same levels of heterosis as the First Crosses. I said 'it'(rare unexplored drug cannabis) was ALMOST completely gone. That is TRUE. Even if YOU find(what you think is) a rare unexplored LAND RACE, your options for making a truly exceptional F1 Hybrid for indoor use are more limited today than ever before. THAT is entirely due to the polyhybridization of the drug gene pool by amateur breeders.
Land race cannabis is not improved for indoor drug cultivation anyway. Theres no hard and fast Rule that all rare land race cannabis is the best germplasm to have to make exceptional seedlines. no.
Its more of a 'plan B', for when the breeding material you have is inadequate and can be improved by the land race.
TH
nvis)"we have already addressed the fact that land races are not intact anymore"
>>> Yes, we have. The number of fully isolated and properly maintained drug land races is on the decline, not the rise. ...Due to global prohibition, farmers opting for DUTCH INDICA POLYHYBRIDS over their native land races, and a global ignorance among the stewards of the gene pool to resist introgression of western hackjobs into their native populations.
TH(nvis)"The Original gene pools are gone"
>>>> Im going to bet that the seed varieties you are looking at have changed with time, by the hands of the farmers involved. I DOUBT that they consider the intricacies of plant genetics, when the operation is nothing more than an outdoor cash crop. They probably haven had formal education on plant breeding or genetics...Do you vouch for their methods?haha
Tom. The land race youre "looking at" does not have any genes that are not ALREADY in the circulating drug gene pool! Tell me what kind of genes you think are special in the Central american outdoor weed, that will be important contributions. I think the pool is all in. (ok. to appease you.. ALMOST all in) OK? almost 100%
TH>>>I know exactly what you're meaning, and implying, and trying to do out of desperation. I share these feelings too, again, you're not the only grown-up in the room.
>>>Good man...I hope youll see the error in being an accomplice to speed hacking the gene pool and facilitating genetic erosion for chump change.
TH:When you are ready to admit that you're far from figuring this all out
>>>I think its figured out. Its not hard to figure out man. You just need to take yourself outside the 'seeds in the mail' box. I think youre sharp enough to know whats right and
wrong. If youre doing things right, then you have nothing to be ashamed of.
TH: -that Gypsy and I did not cause all this,
>>> No, not ALL..But you both(et.al.) FACILITATE it with your complacency to hack the gene pool for money, and a resistance to make changes that would encourage genetic conservation.
That is YOUR contribution to the gene pool: effortless hackjobs shamelessly sold to unsuspecting new growers, as misrepresented strains of cannabis, when they are all nothing but unstabilized bagseeds accompanied by false advertising.
TH: that source populations have had their own problems without us,
>>>Like what? I think that 'the seed market' is helping the prohibitionists ruin drug cannabis, if it cant/wont recognize the benefits of, and advocate MINIMIZING SEXUAL REPRODUCTIONS of the gene pool until the prohibitionists are through. Youre eroding cannabis for your own personal gain. thats a lame ass trait Tom.
The DEA is probably laughing at how poorly we have been handling the gene pool; All the inbreeding and erosion, the small populations, the ignorance/stoner logic, the greed and the carelessness...theyre probably ALLOWING worldwide seed sales to continue because they know its more harmful to drug cannabis than stopping it.
TH:-that there is a shitload more to it than genetic distance which is still very much intact in the real world,
>>>> I never said that all seedline improvements are going to be based ONLY on genetic distance. Longterm, focused recurrent selection on large populations will also be helpful toward reaching higher goals. Genetic distance is IMPORTANT in the production of true F1 Hybrids, which truly exceptional drug cannabis seedlines will likely be....like they ONCE WERE a short 50 years ago...before the gene pool was basically ALL IN.
TH:that beneficial work can still be done in todays environment, etc, etc, etc....
>>> I wouldnt say that was true...it just doesnt happen Tom..except for you. You need to find someone half as blind as I am to this game. I stand by my statements.
TH:when this
"I am willing to cut ANYONE slack that TRIES"
...Is something more than just bullshit, then give me a call and count me in. For real. -Tom
>>>> Im not so sure youre going to be counted in.....Your numbers will tell.
"I didnt mean to say that every single seedlot in the world was mixed yet."
>>>You didn't mean to say it? Or you didn't mean to be challenged on it?
>> No I dont mind. I think you have misinterpreted what Ive been saying.
TH(nvis)"improvement of drug cannabis that arose was entirely caused by the genetic distance of the First Hybrids. Thats almost gone completely now."
>>This statement was in reference to the fact that the First crosses did not require longterm -or even insightful- breeding work to be better than their individual parents.(Skunk#1,Haze,NL)
Modern polyhybrid cannabis(which you ALSO work with, right?) has become more INTER-RELATED through amateur breeding with small populations and do not provide the same levels of heterosis as the First Crosses. I said 'it'(rare unexplored drug cannabis) was ALMOST completely gone. That is TRUE. Even if YOU find(what you think is) a rare unexplored LAND RACE, your options for making a truly exceptional F1 Hybrid for indoor use are more limited today than ever before. THAT is entirely due to the polyhybridization of the drug gene pool by amateur breeders.
Land race cannabis is not improved for indoor drug cultivation anyway. Theres no hard and fast Rule that all rare land race cannabis is the best germplasm to have to make exceptional seedlines. no.
Its more of a 'plan B', for when the breeding material you have is inadequate and can be improved by the land race.
TH
nvis)"we have already addressed the fact that land races are not intact anymore">>> Yes, we have. The number of fully isolated and properly maintained drug land races is on the decline, not the rise. ...Due to global prohibition, farmers opting for DUTCH INDICA POLYHYBRIDS over their native land races, and a global ignorance among the stewards of the gene pool to resist introgression of western hackjobs into their native populations.
TH(nvis)"The Original gene pools are gone"
>>>> Im going to bet that the seed varieties you are looking at have changed with time, by the hands of the farmers involved. I DOUBT that they consider the intricacies of plant genetics, when the operation is nothing more than an outdoor cash crop. They probably haven had formal education on plant breeding or genetics...Do you vouch for their methods?haha
Tom. The land race youre "looking at" does not have any genes that are not ALREADY in the circulating drug gene pool! Tell me what kind of genes you think are special in the Central american outdoor weed, that will be important contributions. I think the pool is all in. (ok. to appease you.. ALMOST all in) OK? almost 100%
TH>>>I know exactly what you're meaning, and implying, and trying to do out of desperation. I share these feelings too, again, you're not the only grown-up in the room.
>>>Good man...I hope youll see the error in being an accomplice to speed hacking the gene pool and facilitating genetic erosion for chump change.
TH:When you are ready to admit that you're far from figuring this all out
>>>I think its figured out. Its not hard to figure out man. You just need to take yourself outside the 'seeds in the mail' box. I think youre sharp enough to know whats right and
wrong. If youre doing things right, then you have nothing to be ashamed of.
TH: -that Gypsy and I did not cause all this,
>>> No, not ALL..But you both(et.al.) FACILITATE it with your complacency to hack the gene pool for money, and a resistance to make changes that would encourage genetic conservation.
That is YOUR contribution to the gene pool: effortless hackjobs shamelessly sold to unsuspecting new growers, as misrepresented strains of cannabis, when they are all nothing but unstabilized bagseeds accompanied by false advertising.
TH: that source populations have had their own problems without us,
>>>Like what? I think that 'the seed market' is helping the prohibitionists ruin drug cannabis, if it cant/wont recognize the benefits of, and advocate MINIMIZING SEXUAL REPRODUCTIONS of the gene pool until the prohibitionists are through. Youre eroding cannabis for your own personal gain. thats a lame ass trait Tom.
The DEA is probably laughing at how poorly we have been handling the gene pool; All the inbreeding and erosion, the small populations, the ignorance/stoner logic, the greed and the carelessness...theyre probably ALLOWING worldwide seed sales to continue because they know its more harmful to drug cannabis than stopping it.
TH:-that there is a shitload more to it than genetic distance which is still very much intact in the real world,
>>>> I never said that all seedline improvements are going to be based ONLY on genetic distance. Longterm, focused recurrent selection on large populations will also be helpful toward reaching higher goals. Genetic distance is IMPORTANT in the production of true F1 Hybrids, which truly exceptional drug cannabis seedlines will likely be....like they ONCE WERE a short 50 years ago...before the gene pool was basically ALL IN.
TH:that beneficial work can still be done in todays environment, etc, etc, etc....
>>> I wouldnt say that was true...it just doesnt happen Tom..except for you. You need to find someone half as blind as I am to this game. I stand by my statements.
TH:when this
"I am willing to cut ANYONE slack that TRIES"
...Is something more than just bullshit, then give me a call and count me in. For real. -Tom
>>>> Im not so sure youre going to be counted in.....Your numbers will tell.
Hahaha ^^^ This is the biggest load of shit I have possibly ever read on a cannabis forum.
(bar the issue of monsanta-style feminization,, which is ultimately government encouraged,, but here we are talking about which MALE to use right).
Dude,, i'd suggest you go back to Disneyland or Seaworld or wherever it is you are from!! Then maybe grow some plants and keep some seeds from the best ones,, share the seeds with the global cannabis community! You never know you might get something nice back in return and your depleted genepool with benefit into the future.
I'm outta this thread until the conversation gets intelligent again.Peace n love all
nvisionary
Member
Gitt:"If you make all these selections indoors exactly how different is this environment going to get. Mine's been relatively the same for 3 years now. How big of a deal are you making of the most micro-environmental factors?"
>>> Experimental error is inherent to all breeding programs and should be reduced wherever possible. I dont think your proposal is typical of breeding programs on any crops.
One grower's indoor growroom is pretty stable, yes, but 200 different seed buyers' growrooms are not. You could choose to make your selections like you suggest(or like I believe Tom is suggesting by shipping seeds around and getting the buyers to make selections on his populations, and expecting Net genetic gain on the seedline). but at the cost of lost selection efficiency. I wouldnt advise it.
GitT:"Oh, so there's Australian breeders who use OP and grow out thousands of seeds at a time? Or did you only count them as pollen chuckers AFTER you gathered up some useful germplasm from them?"
>>>Well cheekyboy.., the origin of the novel gene is unknown but it was suggested by one Australian who apparently knew, that the mutation arose in a stand of wild hemp, which was OP'ing in the ditch at the time the police came to eradicate it.
The novel gene is monogenic in nature, and the rest of the plant is of little to no use for drug cannabis. So the process I had to employ to recover only the mutation from it did not require a huge population on the introductory ABC side. I wasnt expecting to recover any ABC genes, except one.
I was given 200 seeds to start the program and it began there, to continue for 18 generations and 10 years.
GitT:"Also, on the subject of Tom acquiring Landrace germplasm. How is it that you maintain that our poor genepool is eroding at an alarming rate but also maintain that ALL of the interesting and beneficial genes in the landrace that Tom's currently looking at are in the pool. How is it that all the important traits are perfectly integrated and we're not losing any? What traits ARE being lost if it's none that came from C America?"
>>> Toms land race genes are not new to the circulating gene pool, unless nobody has ever taken a seed for drug use from the land race.(which would make you question as to its usefulness for historical drug use).
In the circulating gene pool erosion is happening on a global scale, everyday, with every small scale sexual reproduction. We ARE losing alleles to erosion from amateur breeding.
>>> Experimental error is inherent to all breeding programs and should be reduced wherever possible. I dont think your proposal is typical of breeding programs on any crops.
One grower's indoor growroom is pretty stable, yes, but 200 different seed buyers' growrooms are not. You could choose to make your selections like you suggest(or like I believe Tom is suggesting by shipping seeds around and getting the buyers to make selections on his populations, and expecting Net genetic gain on the seedline). but at the cost of lost selection efficiency. I wouldnt advise it.
GitT:"Oh, so there's Australian breeders who use OP and grow out thousands of seeds at a time? Or did you only count them as pollen chuckers AFTER you gathered up some useful germplasm from them?"
>>>Well cheekyboy.., the origin of the novel gene is unknown but it was suggested by one Australian who apparently knew, that the mutation arose in a stand of wild hemp, which was OP'ing in the ditch at the time the police came to eradicate it.
The novel gene is monogenic in nature, and the rest of the plant is of little to no use for drug cannabis. So the process I had to employ to recover only the mutation from it did not require a huge population on the introductory ABC side. I wasnt expecting to recover any ABC genes, except one.
I was given 200 seeds to start the program and it began there, to continue for 18 generations and 10 years.
GitT:"Also, on the subject of Tom acquiring Landrace germplasm. How is it that you maintain that our poor genepool is eroding at an alarming rate but also maintain that ALL of the interesting and beneficial genes in the landrace that Tom's currently looking at are in the pool. How is it that all the important traits are perfectly integrated and we're not losing any? What traits ARE being lost if it's none that came from C America?"
>>> Toms land race genes are not new to the circulating gene pool, unless nobody has ever taken a seed for drug use from the land race.(which would make you question as to its usefulness for historical drug use).
In the circulating gene pool erosion is happening on a global scale, everyday, with every small scale sexual reproduction. We ARE losing alleles to erosion from amateur breeding.
Good luck getting any sense out of him, he wants to babble on what he thinks is the truth.
He will ignore reason and any reasonable questions that aren't in line with his "truths".
It's quite enjoyable at this point to simply let it settle... I've been out of this conversation from the start it seems
nvisionary -- Could you please honestly answer one question: Are you Dutch?
He will ignore reason and any reasonable questions that aren't in line with his "truths".
It's quite enjoyable at this point to simply let it settle... I've been out of this conversation from the start it seems
nvisionary -- Could you please honestly answer one question: Are you Dutch?
Damn you nvisionary...damn you to hell with all your logic and answers.
And I don't think Tom is asking any clueless customer who buys his seeds to make selections for him. I heard nothing of the sort. He did say maybe someone who purchased his lines would happen upon a fantastic cross but I thought that was to illustrate his apprehension to your apparently one sided conception of the "numbers game."
And really on the indoor growing environment subject. I think overall indoor grows are a very homogeneous group. And I think that can be a problem itself. Breeding to one single simple environment VERY poorly isn't good for variation. Which is a problem we already have IMO even when taking out the environment issue.
And I don't think Tom is asking any clueless customer who buys his seeds to make selections for him. I heard nothing of the sort. He did say maybe someone who purchased his lines would happen upon a fantastic cross but I thought that was to illustrate his apprehension to your apparently one sided conception of the "numbers game."
And really on the indoor growing environment subject. I think overall indoor grows are a very homogeneous group. And I think that can be a problem itself. Breeding to one single simple environment VERY poorly isn't good for variation. Which is a problem we already have IMO even when taking out the environment issue.
The rye genepool is all in and has been for some time now... there is no way that anyone can do anything more with it. To touch it is to kill it. Stop ruining rye by erroding the shallow genepool.
Can't rye farmers learn how to clone? They are going to starve our grandchildren!!
Can't rye farmers learn how to clone? They are going to starve our grandchildren!!
it helps if you use all of what I stated and not just a bit to suit, that said in the rye example where does it give the numbers used? it does prove regeneration is needed, as to the 2000 for dioecious to attain diversity, this number is used because of this:
http://hempworld.com/Hemp-CyberFarm_com/htms/research_orgzs/iha/ihagenetic.html
http://crop.scijournals.org/cgi/reprint/44/6/2246
http://crop.scijournals.org/cgi/reprint/43/6/1912
I think Clarke has proved what is achievable with 2000 plants
i think tom is playing a wickid numbers game,,,,,,,
while so many peeps are trying to shuv a stick up his bum,, all you dudes are actualy nailing him to a cross,,,,,,ahhhhhhhhhh,,,,,tomsus,,,,
tomsus is putting purelines into new enviroments,,,,,creating parralel lines,,,,,,if all the peeps who buy DC keep it going propperly, then at some point,,"in theory",,tom could harvest 1000`s of parralel line DC seeds ,,thats the best any could do for DC imo
while so many peeps are trying to shuv a stick up his bum,, all you dudes are actualy nailing him to a cross,,,,,,ahhhhhhhhhh,,,,,tomsus,,,,
tomsus is putting purelines into new enviroments,,,,,creating parralel lines,,,,,,if all the peeps who buy DC keep it going propperly, then at some point,,"in theory",,tom could harvest 1000`s of parralel line DC seeds ,,thats the best any could do for DC imo
Jones
Member
Really, when and how did he do that?
By quoting some theoretical statistical model?
Or did he do what the rye guys did and actually looked at the genetic integrity on the molecular level?
edit:
A.Börner's email and fax number can be found in the linked article.
Just ask him if you assume those genebank guys are also speed closet hacks and only grew a handful of plants somewhere in a backyard and don't know about the statistical models involved.
He did it with Dave Watson and HortaPharm BV now I presume you know who Mr Watson is and that he should know about Skunk #1
HortaPharm BV is setting the standard of designer seeds,,,,exact CBD CBN and THC levels,,,,,WOW ,,,we should all look at them and take note imo,,,,,all we gota do is isolate terpenprofile then Stick It IN,,any1 got an addy for the ARK?
BUZZIN!!!
BUZZIN!!!
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