What Male to use in a cross?

[whodair]

You can also keep male flowers / branches in water until the pollen drops ready for use

we use pre-boiled water and a piece of tissue..

i like this idea. for those who cant keep a separate room for males. take a branch and place it on the window sill before dumping the male plant. bet that will put out plenty of pollen, just from a small branch.

 

[whodair]

Use the healthiest male.

We usually cut the tops back to delay male flowers until the female is most receptive,, then select the male that grows back quickest with the most vigor as the parent

hope this helps

im a contrarian here. i like a weaker male, and my most vigorous males get tossed. just my flawed attempt to allow the mother plant to dominate.

this is very amateur and non-scientific. if it pisses someone off, or they want to belittle my "hobby", then fuck em.

 

[nvisionary]

DocLeaf, nice male.


Yeahhhhh, I selected a male from x36,572 once. It was nothing special either. Oh yea, I also had it tested by a lab and it was polyploid. 165 chromosomes! man, it made the greatest seedline the world has ever seen. But I never kept it because...life is just a series of challenges...

you know what I mean.

 

[whodair]

someone woke the angry rooster!!

 

[nvisionary]

aww Ive been up a while..I was just looking over the 168 thousand male plants in my closet looking for that one that grew back the fastest.

 

[URUK]

aww Ive been up a while..I was just looking over the 168 thousand male plants in my closet looking for that one that grew back the fastest.

lol now you have the one, keep it and just pollinate everthing with it,, thats the answer sure lol..... oh well mentors know everything....

 

[URUK]

In my considered opinion, it is much better to have the ever increasing discerning customer with options available to them drive this boat. What did we have previously? We took what we got from folks who didn't speak our language, literally. Yeah, I think what we were getting was better than what we're getting from them now, but the seed biz didn't ruin that man, just no way in hell. I do not think your proposal, your desire, for me and others to drop out would be beneficial, sorry, but you've thus far failed to connect those dots man. Though, I see you're getting warmed-up a bit, maybe think you're moving in for a head shot eh?

Tom,

there is no regulation, just go to seedbay/seedhack and see all the seeds and seedbanks that are for sale... you have people on these boards self promoting their wares or their friends wares and some are mentors.. sure theres options for the consumer but is all this option a good thing... granted compared to some seedbanks at least Seedboutique seem to have standards... but you only have to go to the breeders lab to see some of seedsellers giving so much mis info, thats plain wrong... I understand you aren't going to drop out and nor do I expect you too, but its like the blind leading the blind at times and thats WRONG..

 

[SOTF420]

Silly question I guess in this thread, but how would everyone feel about someone releasing a bonafide triploid cross? That is one where more than 50%+ of the offspring in the F1 generation (mother was a healthy vigorous triploid bb) show the trait with no other obvious mutations. Do we not want 3 nodes and 3 bud sites instead of 2? Do you consider this cross "bad genetics"? Honest input please, all sarcasm & insults aside.

If other plants made 200 seeds, we can say for sake of argument this one made 300.

 

[VerdantGreen]

hi, a couple of questions if you please

1. if there are so few gene combinations in cannabis then why would you need such huge numbers of plants for any 'worthwhile' attempts at breeding.

2. If (as i understand it) some of you are encouraging open pollination and are against selection, wouldnt the drug quality of cannabis go backwards rather than forwards? isnt it selective breeding that has taken us from hemp to potent weed?

thanks

V.

 

[SOTF420]

I would also like to add that if you want some landrace mexican genetics to select from just go get a bag of your local shitty schwag and grow out alot of those seeds. You will find something different in there for sure, if you are lucky it might have got pollinated with some elite pollen and you grow out a nice hybrid from them, then you can call it chemdog! lol

 

[Tom Hill]

Hi URUK,

When you can go to SeedBay/Boutique and point out to us exactly which introductions will be beneficial to the future of cannabis and which won't then we can start pointing fingers. You can't, I can't, Nvisionary can't. Only Father Time can do that and this is a massive stumbling block as I see it.

If I was to develop 3 lines descending from a single cross, would this not be better for the genepool than open pollinating from that cross onward? I believe it would. Does anybody here think we should gather up all the lines on the planet, mix them, and open pollinate the results? No, we want to maintain distance etc, we are only arguing where to draw the line. -T

 

[haze crazy]

To answers the original question by the poster, I would choose a male that has survived stress that might be unique to you geographic location If you plan to grow outdoors someday. In any case when using just one male it's a crap shoot, more males is like throwing darts with one eye closed, the other squinting and a pint of beer in the other hand. And if you are not growing a few hundred out to choose a mother from... well that's like try to do all that backwards over your shoulder according to the most severe breeders out there. Just know this one thing: grow it right and harvest it at the right time, cure and dry it right and you will most likely love it because you did it yourself! Okay, more than one thing but you get my drift. Like the old saying goes "the fish taste better when you catch it yourself"...

...and my 2 cents to the breeding aspects of this conversation:

If there were only a handful of seed makers breeding cannabis I would buy into this genetic bottlenecking idea. If cannabis seed companies were run like commercial seed companies like Ferry Morse etc... But the simple fact remains thousands of seed makers doing their own thing for their own reasons in their little plot or closet collectively brings on more diversity than a walk through Key West during Halloween.

Individually these "hacking" practices would cause harm to cannabis. But with so many different growers using seeds from all over the world while others grow their local varieties only more diversity is the result. Added the fact the diverse selection of seeds available to the closet grower by sites like seedbay and and the many others, we are guaranteed of a plethora of genos and phenos. Still ad to that various environmental factors involved you have diversity out the ying-yang. Not to mention the occasional natural mutations that may occur from any number of factors.

Will many poor performing plants be produced? Sure, and lots of good ones too. In this age of prohibition a certain taboo style of charm is surrounding cannabis breeders causing these fractionalized cannabis islands. Kinda like the Galapagos islands X 10,420. If there were just a few it would be horrible for the diversity issue, but with many thousands of these islands the best will stand out eventually. The free market will bring the cream to the top.

Take for example the term "bottlenecking" as used in cannabis breeding. It is a scary thought if only a few were doing it. When a hundred thousand bottlenecks are are being used the "flow" will go well. As each "bottlenecked" gene set is grown out, hopefully a well educated grower is on the spot. This is where ICMAG fits so well into the scheme.

I think some seedmakers use terms like genetic degradation, hackers, bottlenecking etc... because if the regulars closet/plot growers out knew the real truth they would make their own seed or use bagseed. Save the connoisseurs.

The real harm would be after legalization a few big players narrow down the gene pool selling generic mass produced seeds.

After 35 years of cannabis related activity IMHO the cannabis gene pool has never been better. I hear stories of people missing the old strains like Columbian gold etc... Well those genes are still on the planet, just find a good South American sativa seed stock, grow it in tropical conditions several generations at a high altitude and harvest the best bud just at the right time. Dry and cure wrapped in dry banana leaves for a month or so. Then compress the sticky buds tightly, wrap in paper tied with a string. In the old days they were 2.2 pound blocks (1 KILO) and store for a month on a boat. Pretend you are in high school or college, play some Motown and/or Beatles tunes, get your wife or girl friend (preferably both) to dress up like hippies of the 60's and party with blacklighted posters, a lava lamp and be sure to wear a mood ring 'cause their cool. Take a hit from one of those old "North wind man face" ceramic bongs and you will be there. Maybe even get a glow-in-the-dark frisbee and play naked under a the blacklight...

Well almost, cause it will never be exactly the same because weed is a mood enhancer. If you are nervous before you get high you likely will be more nervous after. This is especially true for sativa vs. indica. Likewise, if happy you will become happier. And so on, people seem to forget this simple fact.

 

[URUK]

Hi URUK,

When you can go to SeedBay/Boutique and point out to us exactly which introductions will be beneficial to the future of cannabis and which won't then we can start pointing fingers. You can't, I can't, Nvisionary can't, only father time can and that's a massive stumbling block as I see it.

Well from doing some research on people/companies that sell their wares thru these 2 sites actually yes, I do see certain seed sellers that I would buy from and those I wouldn't some of it on ethical reasoning and some on clear bad breeding practice. Would you buy a polyhybrid and bred with it?

If I was to develop 3 lines descending from a single cross, would this not be better for the genepool than open pollinating from that cross onward? I believe it would. Does anybody here think we should gather up all the lines on the planet, mix them, and open pollinate the results? No, we want to maintain distance etc, we are only arguing where to draw the line. -T

I am not saying open pollinate anything and everything, however whenever I get a seedline, the first step I do is to open pollinate for obvious reasons, I also make selections as i go along and select families for their uniqueness and move the population along, but always backing things up, yes this takes time but is it worth it ? I say yes, I also self selected females and have started to do so with males... but one thing I never do is buy some seeds and just take the best looking fem and a "suitable" male and hope for the best !!! I'm not saying take everything and open pollinate... I am saying it has a purpose just like Selfing !!!!!

would you say theres now more polys in circulation than say 20 years ago ????

Does anybody here think we should gather up all the lines on the planet, mix them, and open pollinate the results? No

I don't think anyone is advocating we have a fuckfest of a gangbang

Like you said earlier education is the key, and when those in power are advocating bad practices wheres the Education ?????

 

[DocLeaf]

The last large scale selection in Europe was Dutchmans Royal Orange,, the parents came from x10,000 plants.

DocLeaf, nice male.
Yeahhhhh, I selected a male from x36,572 once. It was nothing special either. Oh yea, I also had it tested by a lab and it was polyploid. 165 chromosomes! man, it made the greatest seedline the world has ever seen. But I never kept it because...life is just a series of challenges...

you know what I mean.

Dude,, do your research,, i n i used to grow off x200 seed packs regularly at S.P.E.C. when out-testing for GDS. That BD male was picked from x200 plants (x100 males) ,, if you dont want to understand this,, that's your problem!

This is the corner of a veg. room Angle Dust... count em if yo want,, there's plenty there

This is the corner of a flower room of BubbleDust...

We got nothing to proove... we've sown more seeds than some pro-breeders have.. lmfao

I find a lot of contradiction in what you say above, you say the male was selected from 200 males? how exactly was it selected? on looks or progeny? you say you pick on health and vigor so how long was the male kept? how have you tested for health and vigor? just on looks?, you then state the male is not different than a male found in a 10 pack of bubbledust.. but go on to say you can find a different male/female in every plant.... which is it? .. you can push a line to be homo very fast, but whats lost is lost there is no return, especially if ONE male has been used.

regards

I agre,, what's lost is what's lost,, but different breeders work towards different aims,, in Growdoc's case it's medi. ,, in my case (when breeding) it's recreational mainly



You find different males in open-bred and hybrid lines,, not as much in IBLs like Bubble Dust... that what I mean. The BD male plants were selected on health and phyllotaxy initially,, then topped to see which plant grows back the quickest,, and with the best display of flowers. This is because for the majority they are all similar. Then with Growdocs blessing,, the male was put to Saxon Axe.

edit: Note - BD and AD both show male preflowers at 30days veg. , so male selection was early... and easier

Sow out x100 Haze 19 x Skunk (we did x1000 once..lol) and you will get all sorts of plants show up in the batch,, each male different to the rest, in growth pattens and vigor.. in the extreme rogue plants will be displayed which hold no resemblance to any of their siblings at all. Peace out

Hope this helps

 

[DocLeaf]

i like this idea. for those who cant keep a separate room for males. take a branch and place it on the window sill before dumping the male plant. bet that will put out plenty of pollen, just from a small branch.

Cant remember who taught us the 'cut it and stick it in water' method for males,, maybe something we picked up on OG,, either way,, its an extremely useful way of transporting male branches (and pollen) from growroom to growroom. A flowering male cutting (in a plastic spliff-case) is a lot less conspicuous than driving down the road with a fully flowering male,, especially when it only takes a few ripe flowers to inseminate several plants.

There's no reason why you couldn't use the branches of several male plants to maintain genetic diversity

NYCD ,, here the flowers have started to open,, the viable pollen falls onto the plate below

Those that dismiss it ,, obviously didnt try it yet

peace n love all

 

[Tom Hill]

URUK,

"I do see certain seed sellers that I would buy from and those I wouldn't"

Well then, you seem to be imposing regulation that moments ago you said did not exist. Good, you are at the helm. And what led you to this conclusion, yep, education - Your understanding that larger population sizes keeps random fixation to lower levels etc.

My previous point however was that fixation among small populations can and does also occur with favorable alleles, whether or not by accident.

Would I buy a polyhybrid and breed with it? Hypothetically, yes. I might try to clean it up some, increase the frequency of favorable genotypes before moving to open pollination. I believe Nvisionary and I disagree on that strategy though.-T

 

[Sideshow-Bob]

Ok on this level i'm willing to continue the discussion...

>>>> No, I know enough math to discuss with you. And I have plenty of common sense too.
Lets just say that cannabis terpenes are under the genetic control of, say, 10 different independently assorted genes. Diploid plants have 2 alleles per gene..right? So,...if you listed all the different permutations that could ever arise, is that "uncountable" by your calculations? Isnt there a LIMIT to how many different combinations that arise from that scenario?

Ok let’s asume your number is close to reality (can’t see where you pull it from but ok) doesn’t matter anyways, even if it are only 10 genes that control the terpenes, there is still variation in the place where the genes ly and through this variation in the activity of these 10 genes. In reality this results in this incredible amount of different aromas in cannabis, there are more than 100 terpenes known in cannbis, also terpenes aren’t the only substances that are responsible for the aromas, there also are 21 different flavonoides, So even within only 10 genes we would have a very high number of possibilities, and this high number is only a minimal part... the whole range of other factors multiply it to an amount i already would call uncountable... now of course you can argue that still you can try to multiply all factors and then you will get a very high number but it’s still a number and therefor countable... that would be right but there is one factor that def. brings in the infinite component, - this factor is mutation, through mutation the possibilities really are infinite for the cannabis gene-pool! (note: i never stated that the gene-pool itself is infinite – what i said is there can be an infinite numbers of combinations found in seeds - and that’s just true)

>>> I understand gene dominance and phenotype just fine. Do you understand that the new phenotypes that arise in F2 did not arise because of NEW GENES? You are not producing new GENES; rather just re-shuffling the existing genes. So, you have produced NOTHING but re-shuffled genes and more than likely incited genetic erosion from small-scale breeding techniques at the same time. That is lame, but typical.

Of course i am aware of that. But i nevertheless disagree... you produce new combinations of genes! of course not new genes, the genes will still be made by dna, and dna still will only consist of adenine, thymine, guanine and cytosin. But if you know how traits are inherited, than you also know that many times 2 or more different traits are inherited together, this new combination however may have the result of breaking up the tie some traits have with others... and this can be a very big step forward! And i also disagree on the nothing new part, of course you cannot create something entire new (and that goes not only for cannabis breeding but for every single activity on this planet) but like you say you can reshuffle the given elements – and as there are so many elements that you have an infinite number of possible combinations, you can paint a new picture with the same old colours red, blue and yellow, metaphorically speaking,

And now to one of your favourite terms: the genetic erosion: please explain to us what you understand by this... because for me it sounds like you actually think that there are genes lost – in the sense that the plants today have lesser genes than they had before. And that would be total crap... every parent of a cross gives about 50% of it genes to the offspring, so there are genes lost in the sense that from every parent only half of the genes are passed on, but the total amount of genes in the individual stays the same. And this is where real breeding comes into play, breeding is about selecting the parents that you pass on the wanted 50% of genes whereas you loose 50% unwanted genes (of course that’s very oversimplified – but not more than this entire discussion)

Now you propagate OP for small populations to keep the genetic diversity, well, that may sound sensible at first, BUT: what we are talking about here is genetic drift (not erosion!) and as you may be aware the genetic drift is the bigger the smaller the population is – so small populations are highly important for genetic diversity! And not only that... if you do OP the chance is higher you fuck up the line...

I’ll explain that as it may not be clear for everyone in the first moment: with OP you are not testing the offspring of your parent plants before finally incorporating it in the gene-pool. With the approach most breeders take now (1:1), it is different, nearly every breeder who offers 1:1 seedproduction has tested his parent plants enough to know that from the 50% that each parent passes on, the vast mayority are desirable genes... this testing is not possible with OP (at least you never know who is the father), so yeah the genetic drift is higher with 1:1 seedlines but also the control in which direction it drifts is higher with 1:1 productions... that's why somebody (can't remember who) coined the phrase: select the best, reject the rest!

This approach also claims to be the best for the gene-pool and is the complete opposite of your OP-approach... IMHO neither of the one is the ultimate solution, it always depends on the concrete situation in which you start the breeding, and i'm not typing that to propagate 1:1 seedproduction or anything... it is just an arguement i hope is going to make you think...

Examples: The gene controlling 'limonene' or 'pinene'(terpenoids) are the same in rural afghani, as in equatorial sativas. Just like the genes controlling hair color in dogs are fundamentally the same genetic sequences controlling hair color in gophers and elk. Do you understand that?
Another example: Over 98% of the DNA in humans, is carried by chimpanzees. That means that the EXACT SAME genetic sequences on the chromosomes are present in both species, and in ALL individuals, barring a new mutation in these sequences; 98% of the genes controlling chimpanzee phenotype are NO DIFFERENT than our own. It is the FEW other genes(mutations) that makes chimp phenotype different than our own. Its not much. ONE single genetic change in ONE gene can have profound phenotypical changes, as we see from this one example.

I completely agree on this paragraph but obviously draw different conclusions from it than you. Yeah of course all cannabis shares the great mayority of genes, the differences are found only in a very small part. BUT the differences are there... afghani and sativas share this gene, BUT they are very distinctive to each other...

and to include your example of apes and humans, again i completely agree, but you can't deny that within the 2%, that are special to the humans, there is an infinite range of diversity... every human (apart from exceptions like twins) is different, carries combinations of genes that are unique to him and that just shows you how big this small 2% in reality are

The point here is. I think you overestimate the true amount of genetic diversity in this world. And you mistakenly believe that I must have had to germinate every seed in the cannabis gene pool in order to make an educated guess on the amount of genetic diversity that lies within it. I will emphatically state again: 1) I have seen enough of the gene pool to know that it is NOT INFINITE. (Many people can back that up. Skunkman himself once said there was a study done by real pot scientists which eluded that there was not very much genetic diversity in drug cannabis they tested. Did you ever hear that?) 2) The gene pool is not PRODUCING NEW GENES faster than they are lost through poor breeding. And, 3) the few genes that support significant phenotypic/chemotypic outliers of any kind on drug cannabis are ALL IN. I dont believe there are many genes we have not explored yet, through the introgression of even unicorporated land races -if there are any.
New genetic diversity will have to come from natural mutations, genetic engineering, and polyploidy.

Honestly i more think you underestimate the diversity and not the other way round. And i don't think that you have to grow every single seed of the gene-pool to know it (though strictly speaking it would be like this). But i am sure you have not nearly grown enough to even have a slight overview...like i said go to india, you will find more to explore than you can in a lifetime... have you grown all the landraces available on the market? (if so i'd love to hear what you have to tell us about the real seed company and their strains) Have you grown all the new hybrids made from landraces - f.e. all offerings from ACE and CBG?

Now if you only spoke about the dutch commercial gene-pool, that would fit a little better - but even within the crosses of the 3 classics: skunk, haze and northern lights you can find an incredible variety with which you can work all your life - ever wondered why there are 5 or more lines based on jack herer that are (at least in parts) distinctive from each other...

I have only explored a very small of what is available in seed form to everybody today, but it is enough to know that i will find something new to explore until the end of my days

now on your 3 points:

1) I think i remember reading something like this from Sam, but i'm not in the church here - if you want me to believe something you will need proof and not a name - in this case this study from the "real pot scientists"

2) i whole-heartedly agree, but OP is not the solution... in fact, OP in small populations would be considered by many as poor breeding...

3) as i said... not the church here... so bring on some proof, meaning: proof me that all current landrace offers are fakes, proof me that in every single country that was a natural home for cannabis the landraces have mixed with the dutch-skunk-gene-pool, i for one have enough proof for the variety in cannabis - just have a look in my gallery you will find very distinctive plants - of course you yourself can only judge visually - and you can't deny the visiual variety... now let me tell you that in all the pictured plants i also have found an incredible variety of aromas and effects... but of course in the end it all was just cannabis... maybe you are looking for a different plant if you are not content with the variety in the cannabis gene-pool?

You cannot EQUATE the history of apple breeding to drug cannabis breeding. They are apples and 'California Oranges'...ha ha. I could go into many departures on this, but its simply not worth it

I never equated it, i just used it as an example to show you that what you think is the ultimate solution in fact can itself create a huge damage to the gene-pool... now you could argue that with cannabis it would be different as with all the other crops, but why should it be different?

Im sorry.

even if you meant this ironic, i want to say sorry if i reacted a little harsh on your previous posts... but your position is just too radical to explain it so little, so i asumed you just use terms without knowing what they mean i think you wanted to provocate - well in my case you achieved it...

greetings

 

[whodair]

the seedbay closet hacks are growing some really fine and tasty grass.

and the established seedbanks like sensi are putting out some garbage. something got screwed up in the selection process of dutch commercial breeding when sensi NL is a stretchy thai and seedsman skunk#1 is a sickly sweet and fruity wispy plant.

 

[URUK]

Well then, you are in fact imposing regulation that moments ago you said did not exist, aren't you. Good, you are at the helm, and what led you to this conclusion? Yep, education, your understanding that larger population sizes keeps random fixation to lower levels etc. My previous point however was that fixation among small populations can and does also occur with favorable alleles, whether or not by accident.

I am by self education making my own regulations, yes. that said how many people come to this site see some pics and the so called advice on this site then make their purchase be it a bad one and so a process begins....

it is in most cases by accident, unplanned hybridization or basdardization can on rare occasion give a rare speciman... I prefer to arrange the odds in my favour, I learnt that the hard way.

Would I buy a polyhybrid and breed with it? Hypothetically, yes. I might try to clean it up some, increase the frequency of favorable genotypes before moving to open pollination. I believe Nvisionary and I disagree on that strategy though.-T

by doing this the odds are more stacked against you. well that and time aswell.

@Sideshow Bob

that's why somebody (can't remember who) coined the phrase: select the best, reject the rest!

Burbank... and a philosphy applied by DJ short but has it worked entirely for him?

 

[Tonic101]

Hey guys

I have only skim read this post but just wanted to share my view and to a certain extent play devils advocate.

The first point i want to make is about all this poly talk.

The way i see it in the political climate virtually all cannabis breeders have to work in true commercial breeding practices are virtually impossible. This does not mean that they should be ignored. What it does mean is that cannabis breeders have to be extremely pragmatic in there approach, to make efficient use of time and space and not pursue dead ends. We have to be practical here, the sort of selection groups that commercial vegetable breeders use is up in the millions!

If we look at this in a very basic way then the only relevant charicteristics for any parent in a breeding project are those that are displayed in the phenotypes of the offspring. If this is true then the exact heritage for each parent is irrelevant as long as the desired trait is passed on to the offspring from each parent. Therefore a breeding plant can only prove its worth by looking at the F1 generation. This is a slight generalization and there are exceptions.

This does not detract from the fact that the phenotype of the parent is a good indication to its genotype, but without test crossing and growing those seeds it is at best an educated guess as to how 2 individuals will marry in a cross.

The selection process is a whole lot easier with females, we all know this, but with males it is far more important to select a group of males for further testing. This group of males must then be tested with several known female clones the breeder is familiar with. From these seeds all the seeds from one type of clone and all males are grown simultaneously in the same room with a control group of the original clone for comparison. This way you can get a good idea of how each male behaves and interacts with each known female and environmental influences are minimized.

To pull a few seeds from a bag of weed is not solid stock.We have no knowledge the father and limited knowledge of the mother. We have no idea if they were from hermie pollen which is far more likely in todays indoor sensimelia crops compared with imported weed of yesteryear.

This does not mean it is possible to find a winner in a few seeds from an unknown source but this does not make a cross of that winner a winner as well. This is my main problems with the hacks, punting untested seeds of the latest hype strain as the next holy grail for more money than breeders that have invested time and recourses testing their product. This, in my view is praying on the ignorant and easily influenced members of the cannabis community and is low.

Tired now, need a smoke

Cheers

Tonic