Water with Oxygenated water?

[NOYB]

As for sterilization only thing I know is what I learned directly from talking to a major, probably the largest, peroxide manufacturer in the US. I work in 'industry' so can call peeps like that up and get info. They not only make liquids but also stuff like calcium peroxide...wicked stuff actually to use in soil grows but a bit of a delicate balance to get it to work 'right' . Mainly what you deal with is a major pH swing once the CaO2 is exhausted. Before that you get superior growth rates when the stuff is used down low in the container. Interesting thing there is the lower the pH the faster CaO2 degrades and the greater the concentration of H2O2 you get instead of pure O2 during the breakdown process.

Their head of sales for their division told me that for sterilization companies use like a 50% concentration AND high heat and spray the inside of juice cartons before filling.

As for the rest of this thread...LOL...pretty much same old conversation. I really wish Tom Hill would open up a discussion about the 'proper' use of H2O2 and soil grows. Maybe someday. I even chatted with Dr. Ingham and she really had no experience with H2O2 and observing it's effect on soil microlife.

 

[lysol]

No sources hoosy?

 

[RockyMountainHi]

You must spread reputation around before giving it to stink,whistler again.

hoser loves to demand explanations - and as he has proven here again - reason, logic and intellegence is beyond his grasp. As are manners, respect and any thing resembling social skills.

I can grow a healtho plant with the roots submerged in water continusiously using DWC - so what is that about overwatering?
Iron clad rules will bite you in the ass, Water can be usen in excess as can HY, Per.

All he can do is call people "kids" and give neg rep With over 2,800 posts in the last 18 months,,,,,, none of it worth reading;
he's best left on ignore,

And the peeps at the local hydro store tell me 35% is being discontinued, so get it while ya can.
(Homeland security says it's a bomb ingredient) -

 

[stink.whistler]

I really wish Tom Hill would open up a discussion about the 'proper' use of H2O2 and soil grows. Maybe someday. I even chatted with Dr. Ingham and she really had no experience with H2O2 and observing it's effect on soil microlife.

Yep, I agree - what you (I think it was you) posted about Tom's methods earlier really got me to thinking about how the increased O2 in the soil from the breakdown of the H2O2 might save more microcritters / allow for more reproduction than the H2O2 kills in the process.

Interesting stuff, to be sure. I'm adding a microscope to my list for Santa.

 

[hoosierdaddy]

I even chatted with Dr. Ingham and she really had no experience with H2O2 and observing it's effect on soil microlife.

I know that when Ingrahm was approached with this, I think we can read that she actually backed off her original stance on using h2o2 in the organic soil grow. She originally was championing the warning about using the stuff in the soil, but changed tune a bit once she actually took a look at some references.
I don't know about you chatting with her, but I do know there is a thread on the event.
She is a learned person, and apparently realized that she too could be harboring a false impression of how h2o2 actually does effect the soil microbes, since she really had no personal experience.

 

[NOYB]

Yep, I agree - what you (I think it was you) posted about Tom's methods earlier really got me to thinking about how the increased O2 in the soil from the breakdown of the H2O2 might save more microcritters / allow for more reproduction than the H2O2 kills in the process.

Interesting stuff, to be sure. I'm adding a microscope to my list for Santa.

It was actually some chats I had with Tom that turned my head around about using H2O2 in soil. The dude is soooo scientific with this stuff...amazing. The main thing I got was about ORP for actually measuring the oxidative potential of a solution. You water soil and O2 levels go down then rise as the medium dries out. Nutrient availability/uptake is poorer when soils are freshly wet then increase as things dry out. The 'proper' addition of H2O2 helps maintain a more even keel here from the wet to dry cycle regarding the medium. So MAYBE the bacteria get knocked back a bit with the addition of H2O2 infused tea or water which then allows greater uptake of available nutrients, and when bacteria die off (to whatever extent) their nutrients become readily available. As the H2O2 'disappears' and the medium dries out the bacteria population increases processing and making available more nutes. Part of the disappearance of the H2O2 creates a more oxygenated enviro driving bacterial growth.

But...lol...my friend Rev said he looked at a freshly brewed tea before and after the addition of H2O2 and said after the addition the bacteria were basically shot...even with a small addition of H2O2. He could not tell how the fungi reacted cause they move and react so slow there was no discernible difference. This was in a completely liquid enviro though and the addition of the same amount of H2O2 to pure water that is then poured into soil, I'm hypothesizing here, will have a different effect due to the high volume of matter that the H2O2 can react with and also provide areas where the bacteria will be unaffected by any H2O2 addition. Rev is for sure dead set against using H2O2 for soil grows after his microscope tests.

Part of this discussion, IMO, comes down to your soil structure though...that's critical.

I really do think this whole subject would be a great idea for some grad students thesis...Beuller...Beuller...

 

[NOYB]

I know that when Ingrahm was approached with this, I think we can read that she actually backed off her original stance on using h2o2 in the organic soil grow. She originally was championing the warning about using the stuff in the soil, but changed tune a bit once she actually took a look at some references.
I don't know about you chatting with her, but I do know there is a thread on the event.
She is a learned person, and apparently realized that she too could be harboring a false impression of how h2o2 actually does effect the soil microbes, since she really had no personal experience.

Whatever I chatted with her about was in private. She referred me to a person/company in Texas who was doing a lot of work with teas and stuff in larger agricultural applications and he never responded after repeated inquiries.

Dr. Ingham told me she would be more than happy to do some research into this area...if I would pay for the testing...LOL.

While I do think that water aeration can help the 'proper' use of H2O2 is better but have yet to see a study or concrete information that covers what 'proper' is. I think Tom knows or is at least close...Tom...when you gonna publish some papers on this...LOL.

 

[hoosierdaddy]

http://www.ars.usda.gov/research/publications/publications.htm?SEQ_NO_115=207538

 

[lysol]

http://www.ars.usda.gov/research/publications/publications.htm?SEQ_NO_115=207538

That tells me it helps soil plants when added to the water, which I don't think anyone would argue, but that doesn't mean the h2o2 added oxygen or didn't kill the microherd. Maybe it just killed some parasitic bacteria we haven't even discovered yet for all we know... I didn't see in the paper where they tested it on and verified it does not kill aerobic / anaerobic bacteria

Still wondering how adding h2o2 to warm water oxygenates it better then chilling it and agitating the surface tension.

You really are coming off egotistic by the way

You are real fucking sharp aint you, brainstein?

You think my stuff is worthless, and a waste of time, put me on ignore. Other than that I suggest you shut your fucking pie hole. That shit dont fly with me, I dont care who the fuck you think you are.

In your PM you asked me who died and made me thread police, you are the only one acting like you think you're thread police IMO, demanding sources, flaming those who post them, and then posting a related study that still does not answer any of the other questions. IMO if you are not going to at least agree that everyone's assertions are subject to scrutiny, there is no basis for discussion

 

[stink.whistler]

The results indicate that watering nasturtiums at the tested hydrogen peroxide applications rates did provide slight growth and flowering benefits to nasturtiums grown in containers, although the results were not as great as anecdotal reports would suggest. The most likely explanation for the anecdotal reports of dramatic growth stimulus of hydrogen peroxide watering solutions may be a result of hydrogen peroxide decreasing or eliminating diseases in the soil containers rather than it serving as a direct stimulus to the plant.

So this study found a slight improvement, but no big difference - and attributes anecdotal superior results to the fact that H2O2 is a decent disinfectant. Interesting.

 

[hoosierdaddy]

I would thought a substance that would automatically kill the microherd, would produce less than optimal plants?

lysol, I have grown way tired of you. Now you are posting up PM stuff.
What is your fucking problem?

Google the shit yourself, jr.

 

[lysol]

I would thought a substance that would automatically kill the microherd, would produce less than optimal plants?

Right. And to test that you would have to cultivate different plants, identify the beneficials, test them in a lab directly in h2o2 and observe it killing, then test it on the plant and measure if it produced less results. The study you posted merely observed overall plant health.

Maybe it wiped out 85% of the beneficial and 100% of the harmful leading to an overall positive result.

Look I already said you're probably right that its not going to screw up your grow, in the right doses.. but we have to remain agnostic unless someone has a source ( your rule ). I posted one that speaks of an enzyme the beneficial needs in order to survive the oxygen radical. You seem to know more about the subject so maybe you could contribute something related to this.

 

[hoosierdaddy]

Maybe it wiped out 85% of the beneficial and 100% of the harmful leading to an overall positive result.

Maybe if frogs had wings, they wouldn't bump their little green asses. (shrug)

 

[Blue Dot]

http://www.ars.usda.gov/research/publications/publications.htm?SEQ_NO_115=207538

Let me get this straight. This is the US dept of Ag and they are basing results of plant growth on H2O2 without ever considering pH?

Um, these idiots do know that for each tsp of H2O2 added to distilled water the pH would drop. I mean surely a government agency couldn't possible overlook something that basic, right?

The hydrogen peroxide treatments included adding 1.3, 13, or 26 teaspoons of hydrogen peroxide to a gallon of distilled water. Distilled water was used to be sure there wasn't something else in the water that was helping or hurting the plants.

Maybe the nasturtiums prefer a pH that is provided with only 1.3 tsp/gal as opposed to a pH at 26 tsp/gal.

Seriously hoosier, tell me they pH corrected their solution before watering (because I could find no evidence of that in their material and methods) or else I won't be able to stop laughing.

"Less learned" indeed!

 

[hoosierdaddy]

Look, surely you can read the report and see all there is to see about it. It was just a small study done a couple of years ago. It wasn't something I presented to prove or disprove that h202 will decimate the microbe field, as I already know that is hogwash. Not hogwash? Offer something to back up the assertion.

And you laugh because you are not on a level to have your stuff published by the USDA.
I have a sneaking suspicion that the PHD level folks who conducted the study really could care less about someone like you from some internet sight finding their work funny.
I highly doubt they would confide in someone of your level about the pH level of the medium. And what do you know about the pH requirements of the plant that was studied? Quite obviously nothing.

You call them idiots....
I highly doubt you could tie their shoes, let alone debate ANY of this with them.
I suggest you get a grip and move along.

Bluedot...I went to your gallery to see some quality proper pH plants, but to my surprise you have nothing at all to show us. Do you even grow? I hope you aren't simply LEO playing games. But there is no evidence here that you have even half a clue as to what you are talking about. No evidence that you have ever grown pot.
How are we supposed to judge the credibility of your stuff? Take your word?
Zero credibility. Now, I find YOUR shit funny.

 

[Blue Dot]

Look, surely you can read the report and see all there is to see about it. It was just a small study done a couple of years ago. It wasn't something I presented to prove or disprove that h202 will decimate the microbe field, as I already know that is hogwash. Not hogwash? Offer something to back up the assertion.

And you laugh because you are not on a level to have your stuff published by the USDA.
I have a sneaking suspicion that the PHD level folks who conducted the study really could care less about someone like you from some internet sight finding their work funny.
I highly doubt they would confide in someone of your level about the pH level of the medium. And what do you know about the pH requirements of the plant that was studied? Quite obviously nothing.

You call them idiots....
I highly doubt you could tie their shoes, let alone debate ANY of this with them.
I suggest you get a grip and move along.

Bluedot...I went to your gallery to see some quality proper pH plants, but to my surprise you have nothing at all to show us. Do you even grow? I hope you aren't simply LEO playing games. But there is no evidence here that you have even half a clue as to what you are talking about. No evidence that you have ever grown pot.
How are we supposed to judge the credibility of your stuff? Take your word?
Zero credibility. Now, I find YOUR shit funny.

I have a univ degree from one of the top 20 science univ's in the country.

I've been in the hort field for the last 25 years.

and you?

You just can't get over the fact that the USDA overlooked something so obvious.

pretty fukin' pathetic that a nobody like me could call them out on it.

That study was so flawed a middle schooler could see the flaws in their methods.

And these people are in charge of the safety of our foods? Good god!

You do realize that Lucas' mentor was named pH don't you?

 

[NOYB]

Studies like that are always interesting and for me provide a piece of the puzzle but are still inconclusive trying to answer some of the questions I have. The thing I found most interesting is that the lowest concentration of H2O2 provided the best results and that high concentrations were not as effective. Only 1.3 tsp of 3% per gallon was best...not very much at all.

 

[Blue Dot]

Studies like that are always interesting and for me provide a piece of the puzzle but are still inconclusive trying to answer some of the questions I have. The thing I found most interesting is that the lowest concentration of H2O2 provided the best results and that high concentrations were not as effective. Only 1.3 tsp of 3% per gallon was best...not very much at all.

Could it be the pH?

Could it be the lack of Macro and Micronutes?

Could it be the myriad of the millions of other variables that they lacked control for?

Good god, this study was not even a study, it was a bunch of simpletons in a romper room.

It would have been better off if hooiser never posted it but I guess that the best he could do.

 

[NOYB]

You just can't get over the fact that the USDA overlooked something so obvious.

That study was so flawed a middle schooler could see the flaws in their methods.

You really think it was pH related? Having used H2O2 extensively in hydro, and keeping pH constant, I noticed significant improvement dealing with root issues (growth rates/general health) with the addition of H2O2.

 

[Blue Dot]

I don't know if it was pH related or not? (isn't that the point of a study to begin with, A Question?)

That's why I would have built my study with a control in to account for just that, among the other millions of things that affect plant growth.

This is typical gov bullshit. Try to isolate the problem/answer without being subtle enough to account for all that is occuring.

But that would obviously take to much brain power for them.