StrillaGuy
Member
Why focus so much effort on individual state laws when a united front toward the fed will be most effective and massive in scope? Why do 50 times what you can do once and accomplish the same?
Koroz
Member
because there is 0 chance at federal legalization until states can prove that it won't be the end of the world. The senate floor has constituents in states where they won't even pass Medical Marijuana laws, you think those same constituents are going to push their senators for full legalization?
The shroud of lies and rhetoric have to be proven false to the greater public before they become warm to the situation of a full legalization push. The way you do this in our history, in regards to ANY laws starts at the state level. Cannabis Prohibition started at the state level, it only makes sense to end it at the state level.
Just as the Medicinal push is doing now, pretty soon the feds will HAVE to look at us seriously when state after state each year starts legalizing because it starts to work in California, even though Utah was the first state in the union to criminalize Cannabis, California was the 3rd or 4th, its only fitting we will be the first to legalize it and show the world the mistakes our government made in regards to this plant.
StrillaGuy
Member
This is a civil rights matter and should be handled as such. It is the hate filled conservitives who hate gays, minorities, and women who also hate mj users. The general public may hold some inaccurate views like many older people feed lies for so long. But it is a bigot who will spread those lies, hate, robb, and jail us. Conservitives will allways fund anti-cannabis studys and mj users try to argue logically and point to tobacco and alcahols dangers. Logic and love are things ignorant hate filled biggots dont have. If mj users and others discriminated against like gays combined forces we would be butt/bud buddies and have what we both want. If an mj activist is hate filled toward another group of innocent people you are just as bad as our persecuters and "I know you not".
Koroz
Member
I thank you for that soap box public service announcement.
But, what exactly does that have to do with the question you asked, or the answer I gave you? =)
I agree, but you are preaching to the choir, it still doesn't change what I said. For it to be legalized on a federal level, we will have to prove to all of those people you mention that legalization won't end the world. (who btw, there are haters on both side of the fence, liberal and conservative.)
A
Amstel Light
I thank you for that soap box public service announcement.
But, what exactly does that have to do with the question you asked, or the answer I gave you? =)
just the fact that they would even believe it's bad enough to end the world proves you wont prove it to them...what kind of proof is required? Did not Nixon himself have medical PROOF, in the form of a goverment funded study buried?
1) What Koroz said
2) The U.S. doesn't have a nationwide initiative system. So masses of people can't influence the federal government. Shit man, during the Vietnam war millions of people across America marched in the streets demanding an end to the war and no one listened.
3) You need to understand the totally corrupt nature of politics in Washington. There are six insurance company lobbyists for every single senator and congress member in DC. I don't know what the Pharma ratio is, but you bet it's high too. The guy who is writing the health care bill, Sen Bauccus, has received over $3million from the insurance industry - and that's just what he's declared. Who knows how much his family and friends have received, directly or indirectly, or what he's been promised in the way of consulting fees when he leaves the Senate.
4) If you need more proof, look at what the bozos in DC are about to do in the name of the phony science of man-made global warming. Now, whether you believe in mmgw or not, as long as there are respected scientists contesting the theory, don't ya think there should be some kind of scientific congress or something where the real science and data is used to determine if mmgw is real before really expensive laws are enacted to combat it? But no, the bozos in DC just rush into making laws because that is what the lobbyists tell them to do.
5) State politicians are just as corrupt as federal ones. A bill to re-legalize mj has been languishing in the legislature almost a year now, maybe longer. Our legislature won't act on it. The only hope we have is to put an intitiative on the ballot because that's something people can do without the legislature.
Think about it - why is hemp illegal? F'ing hemp can't get you high. The gov't could make hemp legal in a heartbeat and there would be no controversy whatsoever. But they won't and, since hemp is such a versatile crop, you have to ask yourself why they keep it illegal, which defies common sense. Follow the money. The industries that would be in competition with hemp are paying the politiwhores big time.
Bottom line, DC doesn't represent the people anymore and the chances of reform there, at the moment, are slim to none.
PC
I definitely disagree with that. Ethan Nadelman is not an extremist. Yes, gotta agree that Mr. Peron is, but he didn't get it passed, only got the ball rolling. It would have been a gutter ball if left in his hands.
So yeah until the whole community can get on the same page nothing has a chance of passing because of one problem... money.
You better believe it. ...and therein lies the problem, too many cheapskate potheads can't even cough up a buck a month to promote legalization. Much more important to have that beer or watch reruns of 'Family Guy' on cable tv. Oh yeah, anyone who they think wants to 'take' their money is 'greedy'. Let's review the math. 15 million cannabis consumers x one lousy dollar per moth = $180 million per year to lobby for legalization. Money talks. Bullshit walks.
That's correct. It's a damn good thing that neither initiative does that.
sure they do.
they put limits on my growing canopy. they take away my right and grant me a privilege.
like your Drivers License is a privilege that can be taken away. You can lose that license by violating your contractual obligations.
i have a right under California Law to smoke and grow cannabis medicinally.
sounds like a small difference of semantics, but we are talking LAW here. Semantics is everything. Look what they are doing in Los Angeles based on one word in the law.
I agree with NORML who has been around before all of these other "Activist" Organizations. I'll wait till 2012 to pass a law in CA or never. It's already legal in California if you pay $100-$150 to get a doctors note you can grow 6 plants and never fear arrest.
So if you don't live in California then but out of this CA process. If you do live here what is your motivation to pass a bad law?
At this point I'm still trying to keep an open mind about both the propositions, wait and see what gets on the ballot before I decide how to vote... but, so far all the arguing over the specifics of TC2010 (oaksterdam I believe) is leading me to start disliking it on technical merit. We don't need more poorly written confusing ambiguous propositions and initiatives here in California. The whole prop/initiative in California is a blessing and a curse because almost any crazy thing can be gotten on the ballot and voted in. A huge portion of our budgetary problems can be blamed on all the bond measures we passed in the last decade or so using the initiative process.
I think we do have the luxury of waiting and voting for the right law if neither of these are good enough.
I think we do have the luxury of waiting and voting for the right law if neither of these are good enough.
J
JackTheGrower
well good.. Now volunteer to gather signatures..
We have to get CCI on the ballot or we will be fighting all the way into 2012 with it.
I'd rather get on with my cannabis life then fight bad laws till 2012..
Also FreedomFGTR I Have been told that Jack was ready to support CCI.. Can we also get Dennis on-board?
You know Dennis I take it.
You all know I would like to see no taxes as much as the next guy but, CCI uses the tax monies for good things like State Parks and Health Care for the people.. Do you all think we can forgive the Tax goals of CCI?
No, it does not.
It grants a right to grow to everybody, in addition to those rights already granted under prop 215. It does not take away existing rights under prop 215. Those rights continue just as they were.
You can rely upon whatever right to grow is most beneficial to you. You always benefit, you are never forced to choose the lesser right.
But you've already been told this and that part of the initiative that says this has been specifically pointed out to you and repeated by several other posters since then. For reasons of your own, you choose to ignore this, and instead insist that the initiative says something it does not say, and does something it does not do.
Misunderstandings are no big deal. But when your misunderstanding has been pointed out to you and patiently explained - and you continue to assert something which is not true and urge others to believe the same falsehood?
There is a term for that: it's called spreading lies.
Why you choose to believe this and continue to spread these lies is known only to you.
There are plenty of entirely valid and rational reasons one could come up with to say why he or she prefers the CCI over TC2010.
There may be some reasons once could rely upon to explain why TC2010 is a bad initiative, too.
But the reasons you express are entirely false.
Getting a little desperate there, fatigues. Why are his arguments lies and yours gospel? Who made you the final arbiter of truth?
Many of your statements here have already been proven false, yet you keep repeating them. Does that make a liar, or just a shill?
PC
Because nothing in the text of TC2010 amends - or purports to amend, s. 11362.5 of the Health and Safety Code (Prop 215 - the CUA).
The only way to change a law that has been passed by the People of California by ballot initiative, is to expressly revoke or amend it by a ballot initiative. That's not a guess, and it's not a matter of "opinion" - that's the Constitution of the State of California.
karmical
Active member
tc 2010 has nothing to do with medical patients, adult usage initiatve for those that are not medical patients.
They are not taking away medical rights at all, but attemptng to grant usage of cannabis to those outside of medical..
StrillaGuy
Member
I thank you for that soap box public service announcement.
But, what exactly does that have to do with the question you asked, or the answer I gave you? =)
Your right on but my argument is your cant prove to a racist that a minority given equal rights wont harm the discriminator, thieir way of life or children. How is that different that what we face. And to try to prove any thing will be impossible as the definitin of a fact is something that is repetable and with the right spin any study can be swayed to show one thing or another.
Thank you!, any reasonable person already knows the truth that mj is not the devil and proof does exist.
This is a very well though out reply thanks for taking the time to express these things I will admit you know your ish.
in responce
#2 this tells me this is not a nation of the people by the people and for the people as some would be foold to believe.
#3 I understand this is a problem as people,or rather corporations, are buying laws in their favor. Although this should remain seperate from the mj debate as it pertains to civilian rights to partake in private actions by them self or with other consenting adults. Trying to cut the connection to DC and lobbists before we can stop being abused and jailed will severly hold back our fight for freedom. As they will percieve it as an attack on their $ and power and fight back harder. Please do not watter down the fact that we are being discriminated aginst for mj with a debate abot taxs and financial incentives by corporations. There may be the reasons why it is as it is but is not justification for the way things are.
#4 what does mmgw have to do with mj? I already said that there will allways be pro and anti mj studys performed by their respective funders. So I guess we are in agreement on this.
#5 An initiative will take a long time and is not a guarentee the abuse will stop. If mj users stop feeling like criminals and more like a minority group we wil be far less likely to take the abuse or such a slow change. I know we are in agreement and trying to accomplish the same thing but meanwhile I live in a draconian state like many others and cali get all to good mj reforms what about the rest of us. I suffort your fight for freedom but really cant get behind it as Im not a cali resident or voter so my voice dosent count for shit and "can and will be used against me". A boiler plate initative for all states could be actively persued with maximum support in the mj community and force the feds hand at an expedited pace.
SG
StrillaGuy - as goes California, so goes the nation. Once California has legalized, the feds will have to do something. There's no way they can ignore us, and there's no way the gov't of California will allow the feds to enforce their draconian laws here.
You're right that the examples I gave have nothing to do with mj - their just examples of how the federal gov't ignores people, ignores science, and vote as their corporate masters tell them to vote.
PC
You're right that the examples I gave have nothing to do with mj - their just examples of how the federal gov't ignores people, ignores science, and vote as their corporate masters tell them to vote.
PC
StrillaGuy
Member
I will agree to that, second point. I hope your right on the first point about the Fed falling to Cali.
