Wanna Ask The Old Farts A Question?

[Joey56789]

Hey Hempcat and other old farts,

Background:

My plan is (hopefully) 6 of 8 will sprout. I will transplant those at some point to 2 liter bottles, and veg for about a month in a rubbermaid (like lifeless' or red greenery's). I will then flower. After 10 days or so I will sex them and hopefully have at least 2 females and cut the rest. I will then transplant those two into bigger containers, and finish flowering.

On your plan to flower after 4 weeks. You can do that if you want but it might take longer then 10 days to sex them. In general it takes a plant about 5 to 6 weeks of vegging to reach full maturity. Sometimes they'll even sex outside of flower by showing pre-flowers. Although sometimes it can take 8 weeks or more of veg before pre-flowers. Even though technically it's mature when it shows alternating nodes which happens around week 5 to 6. It's been my observation from talking to many growers, that when people flower plants before they're fully mature, then it generally takes more time in flower before the plant will sex, usually about 3 weeks. If you want to flower them to sex them then fine but give it more like 5 or 6 weeks of veg if you want them to sex in 10 days.

So I'm still having trouble deciding when to switch to flower. So let's fast forward about a month. All 8 did sprout. When I transplanted at week 3 to 6"x6" square pots I culled two, leaving me with 6. I started LST a few days later. It has been one week since the start of LST, and the side branches have really been growing. There are multiple side shoots on every plant (as you can see from pics below). I was thinking of vegging for 6 weeks total (another week and a half) to get them mature before flipping to 12/12. The problem I am now have is they are out of space horizontally. The sides of the top rubbermaid are hitting the leaves on the edges. They are still really short though. I have like 15" of unused vertical space to work with. If I transplant again after they show sex, some of that will be taken by the bigger pots, but they can still get significantly taller. I, of course, want to maximize yield. From other's experience around here, optimum for this container should be 2 plants, LST'd, from female clones to maximize space. I obviously have the problem of having males to deal with though. When I can get rid of those, the space will be opened up a lot.

So what should I do? I'm not sure I can wait another week and a half to show preflowers because of the lack of horizontal space. Should I keep on that path, and try to creatively LST them? Should I switch to flower now? Should I just cull a couple to make room?

The other thing is I am a bit concerned that the new growth looks a little yellow. Is that a problem? How do they look overall?







albumn here: http://www.icmag.com/ic/album.php?albumid=2530

Thanks!

 

[Desiderata]

HempKat, you are priceless!!!

 

[HempKat]

HempKat: thx! And another question...When do i change light to HPS? I mean right before lights go off or when?

It's up to you, although you wouldn't want to do it right before lights out because the bulb you would be replacing would be too hot to touch. Alot of people have a veg area and then a seperate flowering area and have both areas set up more or less permanently with the lights they use for veg and the lights for flower. So in that situation the change is made but by moving the plants rather then replacing the bulb or light.

People that don't have the luxury of two seperate spaces typically change to HPS when they switch to 12/12 which is fine. There is another view though. Some feel that the HPS makes plants stretch more so during the stretch phase (first 2-3 weeks of 12/12) they continue to use MH hoping to keep stretching to a minimum and then when the stretch phase is over they switch to HPS.

As far as when to physically make the switch when you're ready I'd recommend hitting the grow room however long enough ahead of lights on you think you'll need. In other words if it would take 10 minutes to finish swapping the light then go at least 10 minutes before lights on so the light doesn't try to come on while you're handling it. Doing it that way the light is at it's coolest rather then just before lights out when it's hottest.

 

[HempKat]

Thx for your answer man , one thing - it really doesnt look like it want to stop stretch , I hope Im wrong .
hmmm - today did my best I tied it down/bend/shitted. Looks much better however I cant say its the effect I was aiming for.
Probably the mistake was made at begining I should go with shorter veg or only 2 plants,maybe smaller pots ...dunno. Seems to be long and hard way through learning for me.

I have one more question HempKat - look please at my cabinet photo :

Would you go with 2 plants in the black pots you see there(20-25L =4-5 gal??) or simply get 4 more smaller pots(10L = 2 gal??) and go with 4 smaller plants?
Ofc Im aiming for biggest yield I can get, the HIDs I have there are 2 x 150W.
(Im not asking for precise answer like : "this is better" but only about your look at managing the space)
regards and thx man!!!

Ps.:
my idea for it is: making 2 plants in these big pots ,25ers , vegging and training hard them around 3-4 weeks than fit there one smaller pot (like 9 Litre) and simply go 12/12 from seed with the third one(I did some 12/12 from seed already - plants are visible less bushy and smaller).

Well for doing sativas indoors that's the recomended way with the thinking that the longer flowering time will allow it enough time to grow to a respectable size for indoor. Another way I've heard that makes sense is veg them for about 2-3 weeks, top them and throw them into flower. If I was you an wanting to make the most of that space I'd probably get several from seed going to find a good mother for clones and I'd either use 2 big pots with two clones or 4 plants in medium sized pots and do a ScrOG. Alternatively if you didn't mind the effort involved you could take enough clone to fill that space with pots the size of a 2 liter bottle, and do a SOG. Those are the two best methods in my opinion for maximizing a small space and/or weaker then ideal lights (ideal being 600W or more). Being you just have 2 !50's your at half of what is the minimum ideal and this will be reflected in the harvest.

ScrOG takes alot of patience and a fair amount ot time tending the plants. SOG on the other hand is relatively easier and hands free but still takes a good bit of time because of so many plants. So really it's just a matter of what you're more comfortable with.

If you're really going to get serious about this and providing a steady source of smoke for yourself then ultimately you should try to get yourself where you can dedicate a closet or small room preferably so you can work with bigger lights and have more flexibilty and greater yield.

 

[HempKat]

Awesome job you are doing on this thread. Congrats and take some rep buddy!

Thanks, I just try to do my part.

 

[HempKat]

Hey Hempcat and other old farts,

Background:





So I'm still having trouble deciding when to switch to flower. So let's fast forward about a month. All 8 did sprout. When I transplanted at week 3 to 6"x6" square pots I culled two, leaving me with 6. I started LST a few days later. It has been one week since the start of LST, and the side branches have really been growing. There are multiple side shoots on every plant (as you can see from pics below). I was thinking of vegging for 6 weeks total (another week and a half) to get them mature before flipping to 12/12. The problem I am now have is they are out of space horizontally. The sides of the top rubbermaid are hitting the leaves on the edges. They are still really short though. I have like 15" of unused vertical space to work with. If I transplant again after they show sex, some of that will be taken by the bigger pots, but they can still get significantly taller. I, of course, want to maximize yield. From other's experience around here, optimum for this container should be 2 plants, LST'd, from female clones to maximize space. I obviously have the problem of having males to deal with though. When I can get rid of those, the space will be opened up a lot.

So what should I do? I'm not sure I can wait another week and a half to show preflowers because of the lack of horizontal space. Should I keep on that path, and try to creatively LST them? Should I switch to flower now? Should I just cull a couple to make room?

The other thing is I am a bit concerned that the new growth looks a little yellow. Is that a problem? How do they look overall?







albumn here: http://www.icmag.com/ic/album.php?albumid=2530

Thanks!

Hmmm, well one way you could go is to keep vegging until you get pre-flowers and then take clones of the females so you know what you're working with and then veg and flower those. The problem with that being that it will put any harvest off a fair bit depending on flower times. You wouldn't have to worry about the height of the ones growing now because you wouldn't even flower them. Also since the mother is pre-sexed the clones will be fully mature the moment they establish roots. This gives you the flexibily of flowering according to size with no worries or sex or maturity.

For now though I'm not sure what to tell you if you want to flower in that same space. Alot would depend on the kind of lights. Also like you're saying some could turn out to be males and thin your numbers out. Generally speaking though it's been my experience that plants that are flowered before full maturity stretch more.

All in all your plants look pretty damn healthy and happy to me, well done. That lighter green color doesn't look out of the ordinary. New growth is light much like a new born is paler. In due time it will take on more color. If you haven't done much feeding it could be a sign to start feeding it at say half dosage for the first feeding or two.

 

[HempKat]

HempKat, you are priceless!!!

Is that before or after adjusting for inflation?

 

[piosh]

Yo man - really appreciate your time!
Was thinking about methods you mentioned - this idea with 2L pots SOG is quite amazing - I could fit there like 50 clones (0,5m2 - man I really dont see 600W inside this box - I should call it oven after installing such big HiD) , but I cant make it so fast since I have to build next box for mum - Im not sure if my girlfriend (we live together) lets me put another box into our house and ofc it will cost.

Scorg is also verry interesting and I think Im going with this - all I need is a netting.
My plan is to take 2 huge pots 35Lers and do some scorging for my first time.
Prolly Ill go with 2 plants like this "stretcher"(WWxBB) in the picture since I know its behavior in flo.Ill let them to cover around 40% of netting than put it into flo.
I think Ill shorten veg also to around 20 days.
hmmmmm.... So decision is done thanks to Mr HempKat - next time 2 mega pots and SCoRG.
Regards man!!!
Im sure Ill have lots of fun with training them :/ - anyway atm I do the same - doesent matter if I want to - I have to train this bitch every day otherway it will be too close to bulb.

 

[Joey56789]

I agree, HempKat is priceless, adjusted for inflation, and the weak dollar!

I'm not going to take clones and kill all these. That's just going to take too long. I am toying with the idea of building a clone/mother box out of something, and taking some clones for next time though. Not sure if I will get to it this time around.

I guess I'm just going to keep LSTing them as best I can and keep my fingers crossed that they show sex soon. I haven't fed them anything except EWC tea yet, so I will switch my tea to EWC and guano next watering.

 

[HempKat]

Yo man - really appreciate your time!
Was thinking about methods you mentioned - this idea with 2L pots SOG is quite amazing - I could fit there like 50 clones (0,5m2 - man I really dont see 600W inside this box - I should call it oven after installing such big HiD) , but I cant make it so fast since I have to build next box for mum - Im not sure if my girlfriend (we live together) lets me put another box into our house and ofc it will cost.

Scorg is also verry interesting and I think Im going with this - all I need is a netting.
My plan is to take 2 huge pots 35Lers and do some scorging for my first time.
Prolly Ill go with 2 plants like this "stretcher"(WWxBB) in the picture since I know its behavior in flo.Ill let them to cover around 40% of netting than put it into flo.
I think Ill shorten veg also to around 20 days.
hmmmmm.... So decision is done thanks to Mr HempKat - next time 2 mega pots and SCoRG.
Regards man!!!
Im sure Ill have lots of fun with training them :/ - anyway atm I do the same - doesent matter if I want to - I have to train this bitch every day otherway it will be too close to bulb.

Yeah 600W for that small a space is too much, even 400 would be a challenge.

 

[HempKat]

I agree, HempKat is priceless, adjusted for inflation, and the weak dollar!

I'm not going to take clones and kill all these. That's just going to take too long. I am toying with the idea of building a clone/mother box out of something, and taking some clones for next time though. Not sure if I will get to it this time around.

I guess I'm just going to keep LSTing them as best I can and keep my fingers crossed that they show sex soon. I haven't fed them anything except EWC tea yet, so I will switch my tea to EWC and guano next watering.

Yeah if you can't wait then you more or less have to just try to LST them as best you can.

 

[rando]

I think I just did something stupid...

I was zoned out and watered my plants without adjusting the ph level in the water. It was up between 8 and 8.5. When I water I do two cupfuls and I realized that I had not adjusted the ph just as I finished giving each plant the first cupful. So I brought the ph level down lower than normal (like around 5 or 5.5) and used that for the second cupful. My logic was that they would balance each other out...lol

Was that the right thing to do or should I have just done the second round of watering at a regular ph level (I usually aim for 6-7)? Also, is there any real harm done from one watering with an off ph level?

Thanks.

 

[HempKat]

I think I just did something stupid...

I was zoned out and watered my plants without adjusting the ph level in the water. It was up between 8 and 8.5. When I water I do two cupfuls and I realized that I had not adjusted the ph just as I finished giving each plant the first cupful. So I brought the ph level down lower than normal (like around 5 or 5.5) and used that for the second cupful. My logic was that they would balance each other out...lol

Was that the right thing to do or should I have just done the second round of watering at a regular ph level (I usually aim for 6-7)? Also, is there any real harm done from one watering with an off ph level?

Thanks.

There can be, ph imbalances cause nutrients to become unavailable. If you're in a period of active developement and your plant can't get what it needs you'll see deficiencies cropping up. Also it depends how off, 8 to 8.5 is pretty far off. If it was 7.0 it would be alot less serious and cause less potential harm.

Your idea might work but the problem is doing it that way you're just guessing and hoping it works. Perhaps it would have been better if before you gave the more acidic cup to the plant you mixed it with a cup of the more alkaline and measured it to see if it made it where you wanted it to be. Then you would be more certain it would prevent there being any issues. In theory though, if you had given a plant of 8.5 water and then countered it right away with a cup of 5.5 water the plant should see a ph roughly in the proper range.

From what you describe I'd say it's a safe bet that you won't have anything to worry about just be more careful. You might see some leaves showing signs of something happening but just slightly or maybe not at all, depends on how long it was before you realized what you did and fixed it. Also on just how thirsty the plants were. If you ever have a situation where a plant gets so dry it wilts, you can almost see it drink as the leaves go from being droopy to looking normal in about 15-30 minutes. If your plant was thirsty and it took you a half hour to make the 5.5 water Then your plant might absorb a good bit of that high ph making your second cup more like just a low ph watering rather then turning it all into a more nuetral ph. It should eventually balance out in the plant but depending on how long that takes would determin how much damage there was.

One time though and maybe you got it back in balance right away, you should be okay. Especially if you had healthy well fed plants to begin with. The important thing now is what did we learn? There's a reason for the K.I.S.S. method. (Keep It Simple Stoner)

 

[rando]

Thanks for the great reply.

Yeah, I realized what I had done immediately after I gave them the first round of water (I give each plant one cupful at a time and then immediately go back to the first and give each of them one more cupful). So length of time between each cup was 3-4 minutes at the most. So hopefully the water just mixed together in the soil and evened out (although they were thirsty, so they were probably drinking it up).

And yeah, I'll definitely be paying better attention from now on.

Thanks again.

 

[piosh]

Hey Hempkat again.
Sry for spamming ur thread man but i have to ask the Old Fart another question ( )

At which week of flowering I should totally leave nutes containing nitrogen?

I started to use lower doses of N nutes (atm 1/3 of regular weg dose) and adding pk to get NPK with high P/K rate.After that I have noticed lack of nitrogen (yellowing lower leaves).
I think I wont give more N that i give now and continue my feeding schelude.

What do you think about this?
Could u enlight "N in flo" problem a little bit?

thx and regards man.

Its quite hard for me since Im not sure if I should react or leave like it is.
Im afraid that if I dont react Ill get shittier yield (lack of N in begining flo)
and if I react Ill get shittier yield (too much nitrogen in flo) ....

 

[HempKat]

Thanks for the great reply.

Yeah, I realized what I had done immediately after I gave them the first round of water (I give each plant one cupful at a time and then immediately go back to the first and give each of them one more cupful). So length of time between each cup was 3-4 minutes at the most. So hopefully the water just mixed together in the soil and evened out (although they were thirsty, so they were probably drinking it up).

And yeah, I'll definitely be paying better attention from now on.

Thanks again.

No problem and I hope it all works out okay. :smile:

 

[HempKat]

Hey Hempkat again.
Sry for spamming ur thread man but i have to ask the Old Fart another question ( )

At which week of flowering I should totally leave nutes containing nitrogen?

I started to use lower doses of N nutes (atm 1/3 of regular weg dose) and adding pk to get NPK with high P/K rate.After that I have noticed lack of nitrogen (yellowing lower leaves).
I think I wont give more N that i give now and continue my feeding schelude.

What do you think about this?
Could u enlight "N in flo" problem a little bit?

thx and regards man.

Its quite hard for me since Im not sure if I should react or leave like it is.
Im afraid that if I dont react Ill get shittier yield (lack of N in begining flo)
and if I react Ill get shittier yield (too much nitrogen in flo) ....

Well there is no hard fast rule about when to lower the N for flower. Typically people buy a veg fert and then a seperate flower fert. They don't typically adjust N, P and K individually. Most just switch to the flower fert when they switch to 12/12 and still others will try to ween the plants off the veg fert and onto the flower fert during the stretch phase (first 2-3 weeks of flower) I've done it both ways and didn't see a big difference.

It is believed by many that too much nitrogen given during flower will delay flowering causing the buds to be less well formed by harvest. It is true that mostly what a plant needs for flower is the P and K but the N is important too for plant health. So you're never really cutting it off completely from N. Now the people I used to turn to for advice used to always tell me that you go by what the plant shows you and if it's looking like it needs N you give it N, regardless of what point in the cycle you are in. I agree with that up to a point. If it's looking like it needs N in the last two weeks before harvest I'm not going to give it any. In fact I'm usually starting to flush the plant before harvest around that point. Meaning I'm not giving any nutrients and I want the leaves to show deficiencies.

Leaves do more then just convert light to food for the plant. They also store nutrients and moisture. When a leaf is showing a deficiency it's really showing you that the plant is feeding of stored nutrients because it's not finding enough or any thru the roots. It's believed that if you can get the plant to use up the stored nutrients in the leaves rather then giving nutrients till the end, you will have smoother smoking bud that burns cleaner, for your efforts. That's why people flush. Leaves do however convert light to food for the plant, not food like the nutrients but things like starches, proteins and sugars which combine with the nutrients to form new growth. So when you are a good ways from harvest even if you're in flower, it's better to give some N to keep the leaves healthy so they'll be able to convert that light. That's how the buds get bigger. What I typically do is this. If the leaves are looking like they need some N in flower I continue giving them the flower ferts like normal but I throw in a full dose (based on volume of water) of fish emulsion (Alaskan Fish Fertalizer). It's natural so it really shouldn't upset the plant (since nutrients dervied from fish might be in the soil naturally in it's native environment). Also it's mostly N with an NPK of 5-1-1. Being organic it's hard to burn with it unless you go way overboard. Another plus is it's fairly inexpensive and can be found in the garden center of most hardware stores and department stores.

Unfortunately strains vary in their nutrient requirements. Some originated in very rich fertile soil and as such are more inclined to having lots of nutrients to work with. Such strains are likely to be nutrient hogs. Still other strains originate from more remote regions where the soil is replenished less with new sources of nutrients. Strains originating in that kind of environment are less likely to need alot of nutrients and may even be "sensitive" to nutrients requiring less. These differing requirements make it a bit harder in that you can't just buy a fertalizer, give the reccommended dose and have it meet the needs of any strain you might grow.

One thing growers can do to minimize serious deficeincies in flower is to have a good full 2 month veg period with a healthy, nitrogen rich, diet. Most of the growers I see with the bud shots to die for I notice often get their leaves a nice deep dark green color during veg. Leaves with a nitrogen rich diet typically will get a very dark green color. Really dark green leaves going into flower means that if the flower ferts are too weak in N the plant will have plenty of reserves to draw from and be less likely to show deficiencies in flower until you're near harvest and you don't care anymore.

Many growers, especially the newer younger ones don't have the patience to wait for a full veg so they flower after a month or even less and the plant has less reserves built up. So if it's a nutrient hog and you cut back it's N early on to flower and it doesn't have much reserves, you're likely to see that yellowing early on in flower. Like in a recent grow I did a SoG with almost no veg time so the plants didn't have much time to store nutrients before I flowered them. One strain in that grow was Purple Kush which I have found tends to be a bit of a nitrogen hog. Sure enough, two weeks into flower a bunch of the Purple Kush leaves started yellowing and dying off. I gave them fish emulsion then and one more time two weeks later and they did fine and made it to harvest in decent shape. Generally speaking though if you give the plant a full veg and make sure they are well fed in veg and flower, you won't have problems.

You have to be careful though being a nutrient hog or low levels of N isn't the only reason leaves yellow and show a deficiency. If the ph is off for example the plant can experience nutrient lockout and not be able to take up nutrients even though they are available. People often mistake ph issues for a nutrient deficiency and then try to counter by adding more nutrients. They think they're helping when in fact they're making the problem worse. Another thing that makes leaves yellow and die off is when a plant gets too tall and the light is now too far away to do the lower leaves any good. When the leaves start using more resources then they contribute, generally speaking the plant will drain what's stored in that leaf and let it die off. Yet another cause would be if you watered too much. The roots could develope root rot, turn to mush and again, not be able to up take nutrients even though they are present. Still yet another cause can be when a plant becomes rootbound. At that point there's actually more plant then the roots can easily support and so the excess growth starts dying off. Plants are pretty efficient in how they die. Most problems in nature are short term and so to survive plants have evolved such that lower leaves are usually the first to go when something is wrong with the plant or it's diet. This protects the buds and the more important and active upper leaves for as long as possible. That's why it's good to perserve your leaves as much as can. The healthier your leaves stay the longer the plant can fight off a problem without losing good bud.

 

[rafe]

plants starting to flower

plants starting to flower

I have 2 plants in my veg room 24/7 and they are starting to flower. I am wanting to get a bigger harvest than I have been giving and I veg up to 45 days or more. Should I put the lady in the bud room or can I get more size on her leaving her in the veg room for a couple weeks????? THanks

 

[Anti]

I have 2 plants in my veg room 24/7 and they are starting to flower. I am wanting to get a bigger harvest than I have been giving and I veg up to 45 days or more. Should I put the lady in the bud room or can I get more size on her leaving her in the veg room for a couple weeks????? THanks

No Old Fart by any stretch, but in general, in a 1 to 1 ratio, the bigger the plant, the more bud, and total quantity will depend upon the strain's own potential and your ability to listen to what she tells you she wants from you and then give it to her.

You can veg as long as you want unless you have an auto-flower strain. So what do you mean by "they are starting to flower"? I assume you mean pre-flowering?

 

[HempKat]

I have 2 plants in my veg room 24/7 and they are starting to flower. I am wanting to get a bigger harvest than I have been giving and I veg up to 45 days or more. Should I put the lady in the bud room or can I get more size on her leaving her in the veg room for a couple weeks????? THanks

Well it depends. Generally speaking yes, the longer you veg the bigger the plant will get. I usually shot for and recommend 2 months of veg. However, not all strains grow big. Some strains are small by nature and giving them more veg time may not make them as big as you like. Also the size pot it is in is going to regulate it's size some. Plus keep in mind during the stretch phase it's going to get taller.

Now here's the thing, for most people growing indoors bigger isn't better. I say most people because the typical grower is working with one or two HIDs hanging above the plants. In that scenario even with a 1000W light, you really don't get much benefit from plants that are taller then 4 feet. The reason being that once the light has travelled more then 4 feet it's fairly weak and won't encourage much growth even though to you it seems bright enough. Now of course with lower wattage HIDs you need to be even smaller because the light is weaker to begin with and so it can't travel as far before it becomes too weak for good growth.

Now you can work around this limitation if instead of hanging the light horizontally with the plants underneath, you can hang it vertically without the hood starting about midway along the height of the plants and place the plants around the light instead of under it. Done this way a 1000W light will handle a good 6' or 7' plant because the light can go 3-4 up and 3 to 4 feet down before it gets too weak in either direction.