Wanna Ask The Old Farts A Question?

[mister_terious]

Planting outdoors after 24 hour veg

Planting outdoors after 24 hour veg

Would any of you kind gentlemen offer some insight as to going from 24/0 cf veg cycle to the out of doors which is 12/12 in my neck of the woods. M_T

 

[alk_loid]

hey hempkat, i have serious problem, i cant get clones anymore here, could it be possible to clone cutting from 4th week into flowering plant.? i could try this maybe they take roots also

 

[BigTex]

Well first of all I'm not a professional as I don't make money doing this but thanks for the compliment inherent in that. :smile: Technically anything above 12 hours should keep them from flowering but it's also strain related. Sativa strains can probably handle getting close to that 12 hour mark without flowering since their daylight time in their natural environment doesn't shift as much as it does north and south of the equator. Conversely indica strains typically coming from more northern lattitudes are more sensitive and I usually say it's best to go no closer then a 14 hour lights on to avoid any chance of an unwanted shift to flower. If you've done 13.5 before and these strains aren't much different (sativa Dom / Indica Dom) then 13.5 should work. I'm guessing the reason for this is to avoid the plant going to flower briefly, then revertting to veg and thereby lose valuable growing time?

That being the case I'd say you would ideally want the time to be equal to the time of daylight of the point you plan to move them outside, maybe even slightly less? That way the plant sees the same length of light or that the length is getting longer (although actually a plant looks at the length of the dark period to trigger reactions, not the length of the light). The tricky thing about outdoors is that you can't just go by the daylight, there are other things that can alter what the plant sees thru shadow or by artificial light. So it's about location and environment as well. The best we can do is to try to put them out at the best point possible which is harder these days when you see the weather go from sunny and in the 70's in February and then a week later in Mar you got artic temps and snow. It's a crazy mixed up world these days. You kind just have to look at the patterns for your area and go with your gut feeling of when it's right.

Thanks! you are one cool cat

 

[HempKat]

Hullo there old gents.

Does FFOF 'go bad' over time? I've got one bag that's about a year old and was stored inside, and another that was stored in the garage but had been opened. Are these any good, or should I just buy new?

Thanks.

I've never used it because it's too expensive for me but I see no reason why soil should go bad. The open one might not be quite as good but any change it may have experienced should have been minor. Unless there is some warning saying to keep it sealed or a best if used by date they should be fine.

 

[HempKat]

Would any of you kind gentlemen offer some insight as to going from 24/0 cf veg cycle to the out of doors which is 12/12 in my neck of the woods. M_T

I'm not sure what you are looking for but let me start off with this. While it is possible to veg plants under a 24/0 cycle it's not the best way to go. Plants have what is called a dark response which basically are things that can be done more efficiently when the plant isn't busy photosynthesizing. So during the light period these functions are slowed so the plant can focus more on photosynthesizing. Since it is just slowed and not stopped is why plants can go 24/0. It's similar to how our bodies heal. Healing can occur whether we are awake or asleep but the majority of healing goes on when we are sleeping because the body can divert more energy to that since we aren't busy doing other things. For the plant what these things are that go on in the dark period is the plant processes the energy captured from photosynthesizing during lights on and combines that with water and nutrients to create new growth.

Since this process goes on during lights on as well, just at a slower rate, growers sometimes use 24/0 cycles to maximize growth theorizing that the more light the plant gets the bigger it will be. This theory seems to prove true but the increased size is barely noticeable. I experiemented with it once using the same strain, same light, soil, pots, nutrients, etc. and the 24/0 plant was only about 6" taller but both plants were over 5 feet tall after 2 full months of veg. What I noticed though was that the plant grown under an 18/6 cycle looked healthier then the 24/0 plant. Better color and the leaves were firm and healthy looking. The 24/0 plant seemed duller in color and the leaves were a bit droopy. The 18/6 plant when switched to 12/12 started developing flowers in a week, the 24/0 plant took 3 weeks to start putting out flowers. These results have been echoed by others who used to go 24/0 for veg but switched to 18/6.

Now when I did outdoors stuff still I never did that 24/0 stuff. Of the people I've talked to that did start plants indoors to get them ready, under a 24/0 schedule, when they did move them outside in the spring the went to flower at first, then reverted back to veg and grew normally from that point on. Unfortunately reverting to veg from flower can rob one of a month or more of valuable growing time.

Based on this I'd advise against putting those plants out without first giving them a week or two at a cycle closer to what you have in your region. You say it's 12/12 right now so I would say go 14/10 (14 hours on / 10 hours off) for a week or two first. One to get the plants used to a light cycle close to what they'll see outside and two to let the light cycle in your area grow into a longer period of daylight. Personally I wouldn't put plants out before the first day of spring at the absolute earliest. Also given that frost in April is not unheard of in my area I often waited until early May to put plants out. They shouldn't start flowering until about the end of July so even going out in May they'll have over 2 months of veg time which is plenty.

Even if you were growing at a light cycle closer to what the daylight schedule is for your area, if you put your plants out when it's 12/12 still, most strains will try to flower on you.

 

[HempKat]

hey hempkat, i have serious problem, i cant get clones anymore here, could it be possible to clone cutting from 4th week into flowering plant.? i could try this maybe they take roots also

You can although there is an increased chance the clones will fail because at the same time they're trying to grow roots they are also trying to revert to veg and what happens is if the clones make it, it'll take them longer to root and growth might be a little funky at first after they grow roots.

It's doable but not the best way to go. Better to get into the habit of taking cuts of any strain you want to hang on to before you flower them, even if you don't know the sex. Just keep the clones marked somehow so you know which clones came from which plant and when you flower the plants you took the clones from if you get any males then pull them and the clones that came from them. Unless of course you want to keep a male or two to use their pollen for making seeds.

 

[mister_terious]

Hello, and thank you HempKat for the insight. I'll do just as you've advised. In future i'll forgo the 24/0 in favor of 18/6. m_t

 

[Weezard]

Older than dirt!

Older than dirt!

Hullo there old gents.

Does FFOF 'go bad' over time? I've got one bag that's about a year old and was stored inside, and another that was stored in the garage but had been opened. Are these any good, or should I just buy new?

Thanks.

Aloha KD

It may dry out a little, but dirt is eternal.
The sealed bag should be OK.

The open bag may give you some grief though.
If it was moist and not resealed well, you may have a Fungus gnat problem.
I'd put a scoop in a dixie cup, wet it, and seal it in a zip-lock for 2 weeks or so.
If ya see tiny, black headed worms or little black flies, you'll have to sterilize, or 86 it.

Regards.
Weezard

 

[HempKat]

Hello, and thank you HempKat for the insight. I'll do just as you've advised. In future i'll forgo the 24/0 in favor of 18/6. m_t

Oh I forgot to mention, two things, one is that the height of 5 feet was reached under a 1000W and even then that's too tall for efficient use of your space. So I don't want to seem to suggest that indoors 5 feet is good. It can be with the right light set up though (vertical, no hood, with the plants around the light instead of under it).

The other thing I forgot to mention is that by going from 24/0 to 18/6 not only should your plants seem healthier and grow almost as fast and well, but if you use a HID for veg, you'll see a noticeable drop in your electric bill

 

[HempKat]

Aloha KD

It may dry out a little, but dirt is eternal.
The sealed bag should be OK.

The open bag may give you some grief though.
If it was moist and not resealed well, you may have a Fungus gnat problem.
I'd put a scoop in a dixie cup, wet it, and seal it in a zip-lock for 2 weeks or so.
If ya see tiny, black headed worms or little black flies, you'll have to sterilize, or 86 it.

Regards.
Weezard

I'm not sure about the worms unless you mean fungus gnat larvee but fungus gnats while a nuscience and potentially destructive can be effectively dealt with in a grow using mosquito dunks according to a grower I know who is a very talented grower. Others followed his advice with good results and the next time I have a fungus gnat infestation from soil I'm using, I plan on giving it a try. Makes alot more sense then trashing some otherwise good soil. That being said if it's not much and/or you don't mind the loss in order to avoid the potential problem then go ahead and toss it.

 

[alk_loid]

thankyou hempkat u answered exactly what i wanted to know.

do 400mh and 400hps give same yields as 2x400hps?
i want to upgrade too 800w . but i cant find hps light, only mh. so im thinking if i dont lose in yield im going with this 400w MH . maybe mixing spectrums is better i dunno,

 

[IndianHay]

Is it ok if i add some orange and banana shelfec into soil? Whats are benefits?

 

[HempKat]

thankyou hempkat u answered exactly what i wanted to know.

do 400mh and 400hps give same yields as 2x400hps?
i want to upgrade too 800w . but i cant find hps light, only mh. so im thinking if i dont lose in yield im going with this 400w MH . maybe mixing spectrums is better i dunno,

Some feel it's better to mix spectrums when you can as it makes it more like sunlight, I agree with this. As far as your question I don't think your yield will be significantly different but the look and feel of the bud may be slightly different. Blue spectrum light tends to make the buds grow smaller in size but denser so the weight of a bud grown under MH would be about the same as if it was grown under HPS but the bud would be a bit smaller and harder then if it was grown under HPS.

Whatever weight difference if any will be small, not enough to bother most growers, I'm talking just a few grams if any difference. So in light of that, if it makes it easier for you and your wallet right now then go with the MH/HPS mix. If that works well for you and you're happy with it then stick with it. If you don't like the results then you can always get another HPS later.

People say use MH for Veg and HPS for flower because blue spectrum light promotes vegitative growth and red spectrum light promotes flowering growth. Every living thing's response to the environment it's in is developed thru 1000's of years worth of adaptation. Elements of an environment that don't change much if any over time tend to become things that life depends on these things include weather and sun which obviously plants depend on heavily. Then again so do we, there is a form of depression people get in the winter called S.A.D. which stands for Seasonal Affective Disorder and the cure is to expose them to special lights. Also vitamin D which is critical to our bodily functions we can absorb vitamin D thru our skin from being exposed to the sun much the way plants absorb sun and turns it into starches and protein and sugars.

Anyway plants have evolved an even more complex relationship with the sun since they sit there under it all day long. Over time they have adapted to how the sun changes with the seasons due to earths orbit around the axis and around the sun and how this also changes the way light refracts thru the atmosphere. Ever notice how bright colors in clear crisp cool tones are always associated with spring and early summer and how late summer and early fall are associated more with reds, yellows and orange? That's because things are like that because in the spring the sun hits the earth at an angle that makes it more blue spectum in the spring/early summer and more red spectrum late summer/ fall. The thing is it's not just one or the other, it's a mix of all spectrums constantly but gradually shifting as the earth follows it's orbit. Since blue is strongest in spring when vegitative growth is most needed to happen after coming out of winter, plants have evolved to do it's best vegitative growth under a strong blue spectrum. Likewise since a plant needs to do what it does and prepare for winter when the light is more red spectrum they have evolved to do their best flowering under a strong red spectum light. Since both spectrums are always present however plants have evolved to also grow under either spectrum from start to finish.

In my opinion though, if you really want to play around with mixing spectrums to be more like the sun, the best way to go is with a multi light setup of say 5 or 6 lights and vary the ratio of blue to red to match the seasons. Such that it starts out as mostly MH in veg for two months and mostly HPS by the time it's ready for harvest. However I would say ultimately that makes for a more difficult and expensive grow room to run. I would say it's not worth it unless you got money to burn and don't mind the extra work it takes to manage it.

Ultimately though it boils down to what works best for you personally and your finances and the size room you have. So again try the mixed light set up and if you're not happy with it for some reason then try the more traditional approach and see if it works better for you? There are other factors to consider such ast the fact that MH lights tend to run a bit hotter even though HPS lights look like they would be hotter. Not alot, just a few degrees. That few degrees though could be making things a bit warmer then you would like or that your ventilation can handle, that's why you got to see what works for you personally.

 

[HempKat]

Is it ok if i add some orange and banana shelfec into soil? Whats are benefits?

I couldn't say for certain as I've never done it myself however oranges, bananas, eggshells, coffee grounds, etc. are routinely added to compost piles and then later as compost is some of the best soil you can give your plants. Another thing to consider is where the soil will be used, if outdoors then decompossing peels and such may attract unwanted pests. Indoors it may create an odd odor that draws attention?

I can't say what the specific benefits are but I know bananas are rich in potassium. Oranges are most noted for citric acid and any acid says caution to me since in soil we strive for a near ph nuetral environment. Also like any other living thing those fruits need various minerals and vitamins and such and when they go thru the composting process those elements are released into the resulting soil. So it may also help to provide various micronutrients but I don't know specifically which ones.

 

[KlagDragon]

Where can I get dolomite lime? I asked at a really nice greehouse/garden store that had all kinds of products, both organic and not, and they had no idea what I was talking about, and insisted I didn't need that for my soil. I obviously do if I want to make my own soil, but I haven't been able to find it anywhere..

 

[IndianHay]

HempKat: thanks! Its for indoor and no strange odor for now...when they will start to rot i will smell hope not too bad odor. And another question about preflowers. My plants are now in 3rd week of 18/6, and they all have the same "sticks". So there are three options: they are all females, all males or they didnt preflower yet?

 

[HempKat]

Where can I get dolomite lime? I asked at a really nice greehouse/garden store that had all kinds of products, both organic and not, and they had no idea what I was talking about, and insisted I didn't need that for my soil. I obviously do if I want to make my own soil, but I haven't been able to find it anywhere..

Well where I'm at it's available in hardware stores like Lowes and Home Depot as well as Garden Centers in stores like Walmart, as a brand called Espoma but instead of dolomite lime they call it garden lime but it's the same stuff. Here's a link to an online source for it so you can see what it looks like.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000BWZAQQ

 

[HempKat]

HempKat: thanks! Its for indoor and no strange odor for now...when they will start to rot i will smell hope not too bad odor. And another question about preflowers. My plants are now in 3rd week of 18/6, and they all have the same "sticks". So there are three options: they are all females, all males or they didnt preflower yet?

They haven't pre-flowered yet. Typically plants don't show pre-flowers until around week 5 or 6 of veg. Some might show a little later and some may not show until you go to 12/12. Mostly though it's around week 6. If the "sticks" as you call them are what I think they are then you're looking in the right area but those aren't the pre-flowers.

 

[IndianHay]

That sticks are located at the 4th floor of leaves on the stim, so I am almost sure that you think the same thing.I will wait some week or two and then they will be tall enough to show their sex. When i will pull out all of the males and hermaphrodietes then i will switch to flower and wait some time to tops shows

 

[HempKat]

That sticks are located at the 4th floor of leaves on the stim, so I am almost sure that you think the same thing.I will wait some week or two and then they will be tall enough to show their sex. When i will pull out all of the males and hermaphrodietes then i will switch to flower and wait some time to tops shows

Well you shouldn't have any hermies from veg unless you're stressing the hell out of them with high temps or something like that. If we are thinking of the same thing these "sticks" should be at every node. It may be though that they just haven't fully developed yet on the other nodes. It'd be alot easier to tell if I had a picture to judge by.