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Volatile organics stimulation, fatty acids, and Lactobacillus

Dr.Mantis

Active member
Hi everyone,

I've been doing some research into potential ways to increase the volatile organic compound production in cannabis. It seems that the two main pathways involved in cannabinoid synthesis, and terpenoids are the olivetolic acid pathway and mevalonic acid pathway. The substrate for the olivetolic acid pathway is hexanoyl COA, which is biosynthesized by Cannabis species likely by the oxidation and cleavage of larger fatty acids. It has been demonstrated that the application of heaxnoate to the roots of citrus species significantly increases the production of volatile organic compounds via an inductive signaling pathway. Likewise, hexanoate has been shown to stimulate the mevalonate pathway in cannabis, as well as being a substrate for the olivetolic acid pathway.

As a first step, I decided to qualitatively give this a shot. To start I took 100g or plain uncooked white rice and stirred it with 500ml of water until it was cloudy. Next the cloudy rice was water was decanted from the grains and placed into a clean container with the lid cracked. 48hr hours later a drop of the solution was viewed under a microscope with the 40x objective, confirming the presence of bacillus shaped bacteria, and no indication of filamentatious fungi. The next day a probiotic capsule was added to the mixture (containing many species of lactic acid bacteria). The choice for lactobacillus was two fold: 1. they produce quite a few small and medium sized fatty acids, like hexanoate. 2. they are symbotic with many plant species and non pathogenic. The next day 100ml of this solution was added to 900ml of whole pasteurized goat milk. Goat milk contains higher amounts of hexanoate containing lipids compared to cows milk, and milk is an ideal media for lactic acid bacteria.

The solution was placed in a bleach washed 1L flask along with a stir bar. The solution was covered with foil and placed on a heated stir plate at 35C for 2 days. At this time, the solution was checked for pH which registered at 3.6, indicating copious bacterial growth and acid production. Normally as milk acidifies, the curd separates as large chunks. However, the stirring kept the solution opaque. My hope was as the lactose ran out in the milk, the bacteria would start to consume more of the milk lipids and hopefully produce more hexanoate. At this point the solution was checked under the microscope. A drop of the culture was stained with methylene blue and observed with a 40x objective. The solution was absolutely teeming with bacteria, and it was then used to treat my flowering plants.
GoatMilkBacillus.jpg

IMG.jpg


To do this, 10ml of the culture was added to a clean sprayer containing dechlorinated tap water adjusted to pH 6.4. 10ml in one gallon equates to about 10-20ppm. Although this on the extremely low side, especially if were are wanting hexanoate. I wanted to be sure it wouldnt hurt my plants. This solution was spray on all the plant in flower (about week 4 or 5), and the soil in each pot right before lights out, and 30 minutes after lights out.

Depending on how the plants respond, I will increase the culture concentration and take notes. If I like the results, I will repeat the experiment (ideally) with controls.

References:


Stay tuned!
 

Creeperpark

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Thanks for stopping and sharing your work friend. Sounds like you have been doing a lot of research. I'm a little confused but a lot interested. So I hit the watch button so I won't miss any of your work. Keep posting to keep us updated. You say the liquid pH dropped to 3.5. Did you spray all of your plants are only one plant?
 

Dr.Mantis

Active member
Thanks for stopping and sharing your work friend. Sounds like you have been doing a lot of research. I'm a little confused but a lot interested. So I hit the watch button so I won't miss any of your work. Keep posting to keep us updated. You say the liquid pH dropped to 3.5. Did you spray all of your plants are only one plant?
Thank you!
Apologies if the post wording wasn’t great, I wrote it when I should have been asleep. For the milk culture, yes the pH dropped to around 3.5 after a few days. This is a good sign because it means the lactic acid bacteria are growing, and hopefully making some hexanoic acid from the goat milk fat.

The condensed idea is this:
1. Hexanoate is a signaling molecule in plants, and an important precursor in cannabis.
2. Goat milk has more hexanoate tied up in its fat content than regular milk.
3. Lactic acid bacteria can make there own hexanoate, and release it from fat. Also, they are safe for humans and plants.
4. So, feed lactic acid bacteria goat milk and hope they make the stuff we are after.
5. Dilute the fermented milk (basically yogurt) to a low level and apply to the plants.

Also, all the plants were sprayed. If I try this again, I will attempt to do some sort of control so I can see if there are noticeable changes, or if it’s all in my head.

Does anyone know of any labs in the us that do terpene testing for non commercial growers?? That would be really cool to add to the next experiment.
 

Creeperpark

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You haven't seen any terpene expansion have you? Your unknown finished results are still out and unknown correct? Can you post some before and after photos of what you are talking about? I can't see anything on those large plants.
 

Dr.Mantis

Active member
You haven't seen any terpene expansion have you? Your unknown finished results are still out and unknown correct? Can you post some before and after photos of what you are talking about? I can't see anything on those large plants.
Correct, first application was last night. Second will be this evening. I don’t really have a reference point since these are new strains to me. But I have clones I will be running the next round. Some other parameters i forgot:

Lighting: viparspectra ks3000, uvb/uva fluorescent lamp.
Temp: up to 85 in the day, down to 72 in the night.
Humidity: max 58%, min 40%
Watering schedule: as needed with a small amount of runoff.
Flowering: somewhere between week 5 and 6 since flip ( guesstimate)



Here are some more photos, sorry for the poor quality.
2109BED6-5B7E-4BE6-A63A-7F00D2BC28FE.jpeg

TO pheno 1
7F73165C-ABE2-43D7-B2B6-A83FE0984ADC.jpeg

TO pheno 1
39E59DC3-24FB-4916-82BD-F3381CEA9AC0.jpeg

TO pheno 2 ( I like this one)

62CB6A96-745F-42DF-9552-AC65278F2CA8.jpeg


TO pheno 2 side shot.
710C0B2F-85CD-4827-A4CA-D49C304306A1.jpeg

GH cheese (not cheesy yet, smells like blue berries).
 

Dr.Mantis

Active member
Quick update:

After the first application (10ml of culture in 1 gal on pHd dechlorinated water), I observed no evidence of damage from the foliar spray. So last night I upped the conc to 100ml of culture in 1 gallon. It needs to be shaken a bit to disperse the solids and lipids into solution. This material was spayed onto the plants and into the soil at lights out. This morning I inspected and do not see any signs of damage. I took a sniff of one of the Thousand Oaks ladies and there is a noticeable smell that is hard to pinpoint. Kind of sour/goaty. This may be confirmation bias on my part, but to me it smells different and funky in a good way. If I had to guess, I would speculate this is the result of some of the fatty acids breaking down on the leaf surface due to the bacterial action, and uvb I’m running. I wouldn’t expect a huge increase in plant secondary metabolites in only 24-48hrs. The question to me is will this change as plant stimulation is induced? I won’t be able to scientifically answer that question this run, since I have not controls and have never run these cultivars before.

Also, on the culture side. Last night I added 2g of calcium carb and 1g of potassium carb to the culture to buffer the pH. This brought the pH up to 4.8. I did this because too much acid production can slow down/be toxic to some of the species in there. Plus crashing out some of the fatty acids as insoluble calcium salts may encourage lipid hydrolysis as a source of new microbial food.

Another project I have coming up. Applying methyl lineolate (made from grape seed oil) to cannabis leaves and roots as simulator under uvb. Lineolic acid and the like are the endogenous precursors of the hexanoyl pathway in cannabis. I speculate that additions may increase psm under abiotic stress (uvb).
 

Creeperpark

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Thank you for sharing your work. Doc your work is very interesting but I don't do well with a lot of words as much as I do with plant results. You have to remember not many of us have technical degrees or any degree as for as that goes. Maybe if you use layman's words in place of those hard-to-understand words you could help people understand what you are talking about. It will be easy for people to miss understand what you are doing exactly.
 

Dr.Mantis

Active member
So you're spraying them with yoghurt in hopes they will end up smelling like a skunk?
Good tldr!

Basically yes, but not necessarily skunk, just stink in general. The acyl COAs used in the biosynthesis should degrade to fairly stinky things themselves. Things like barnyard, goat, cheese, vomit- aka all things I love. Skunk thiols are likely produced as an antioxidant in competent plants. I have a plan going for that too, but one experiment at a time (I only have one tent).Also lipid peroxidation appears to be the most reasonable pathway for the biosynthesis of these stinky compound. So, what I’m trying to do is utilize different ways to upregulate lipid production and metabolism, through chemical/microbial inducers and uv light.My eventual plan is try with pure hexanoic acid, but before I do that I thought I would try with stuff anyone can find at the grocery store.
 

Creeperpark

Well-known member
Mentor
Veteran
Good tldr!

Basically yes, but not necessarily skunk, just stink in general. The acyl COAs used in the biosynthesis should degrade to fairly stinky things themselves. Things like barnyard, goat, cheese, vomit- aka all things I love. Skunk thiols are likely produced as an antioxidant in competent plants. I have a plan going for that too, but one experiment at a time (I only have one tent).Also lipid peroxidation appears to be the most reasonable pathway for the biosynthesis of these stinky compound. So, what I’m trying to do is utilize different ways to upregulate lipid production and metabolism, through chemical/microbial inducers and uv light.My eventual plan is try with pure hexanoic acid, but before I do that I thought I would try with stuff anyone can find at the grocery store.
Basically not necessarily skunk, just stink in general I understand. Thanks. Keep us posted Doc.
 

led05

Chasing The Present
Cool thread…. However imho

As Any decent garlic farmer already knows the answer here, S & Ca, Gypsum during growth & early flower / flip - K sulfate after that for cannabis

RE UV, id look into Ushio Mid range UVB bulbs, peak 306nm - it took me years of trial & error to get there, fwiw

GL
 

Dr.Mantis

Active member
Thank you for sharing your work. Doc your work is very interesting but I don't do well with a lot of words as much as I do with plant results. You have to remember not many of us have technical degrees or any degree as for as that goes. Maybe if you use layman's words in place of those hard-to-understand words you could help people understand what you are talking about. It will be easy for people to miss understand what you are doing exactly.
Thank you for the feedback, I get a little too excited sometimes and forget we all have different backgrounds, even though many of us have similar goals. I’ll try to my best to translate out the overly sciencey mumbo jumbo.

Basically, what I am interested in is skunky and stinky weed, not really the fruity stuff ( it’s not bad, I’m just over it). It seems to me that cannabis research overly focuses on “Terps”, which are extremely broad, varying, and not necessarily unique to pot. Cannabis also produces a wide variety of other compounds that I believe are just as interesting, or even more interesting than the run of the mill terpenes commonly talked about. A lot of these other stinky molecules like thiols (skunky, garlicky, sulfury in general), amines (fish, rotting meat, ammonia), and organic acids (barnyard, gym socks, vomit) are produced by the plant according to genetics and environmental conditions. A lot of these non terp compounds and the actual terps are produce mainly by two intertwined mechanisms in the plant. Hexanoic acid is a substrate used by the plant to make things, and in other plant species application of this material has been shown to stimulate these pathways. So, my attempt here is to see if applying hexanoate and other fatty acids in the form of fermented goat milk will have any effect. This is a work in progress, so don’t take any of it as fact.
 

Dr.Mantis

Active member
At least it’s got a lot of Ca in it :)
It’s probiotic weed now lol.
Cool thread…. However imho

As Any decent garlic farmer already knows the answer here, S & Ca, Gypsum during growth & early flower / flip - K sulfate after that for cannabis

RE UV, id look into Ushio Mid range UVB bulbs, peak 306nm - it took me years of trial & error to get there, fwiw

GL

I’ve got a fair amount of gypsum in my soil from my water. I neutralize my high calcium tap with sulfuric acid. So they do get quite a bit of Ca and sulfate, and quite a bit of K through there cycle. So far, the few runs I have grown have produced nice weed, but not exactly what I’m looking for.

I will def check out the uv bulb, thank you for the info. Right now I have an agro max uvb.
 

led05

Chasing The Present
It’s probiotic weed now lol.


I’ve got a fair amount of gypsum in my soil from my water. I neutralize my high calcium tap with sulfuric acid. So they do get quite a bit of Ca and sulfate, and quite a bit of K through there cycle. So far, the few runs I have grown have produced nice weed, but not exactly what I’m looking for.

I will def check out the uv bulb, thank you for the info. Right now I have an agro max uvb.
Ha

When you grow any plant it’s all about balancing your base cations and a few key anions, and balancing Ca & K is principle throughout the grow this varies, significantly… then everyone forgets what H does, Is and it’s impact when we water…. But I ain’t no doctor :) and that’s getting to PhD level farmer shit, at least -

I enjoy POV from educated people I have little background in, so I’m always all ears, cheapest way to learn if you can hone in properly…

It’s not that I lack education but it certainly isn’t related to any of this stuff; I just play a plant guy after staying at a holiday inn - ha..

But my plants do the walking @ here, I just follow them @ as if on a leash, they even got me singing to them from time to time :)

Peace
 

Dr.Mantis

Active member
So this is like a better Lactobacillus serum? I used LAB last season and It seemed to work very well
Yup, this is basically lactobacillus. However, one important aspect is the use of goat milk. Goat milk is higher in hexanoate. Hexanoate is an important signaling molecule in plants, and it’s what makes goat cheese somewhat funky.
I do want to test pure hexanoate at some point, but I wanted to start with a an easy to get product first, like goat milk and probiotic cultures.
 

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