vertical growing?

[ethereal]

in order for a vertical grow to outperform a horizontal grow, you have to use the right plant for the job.*

small-scale vert. will do nothing for you except decrease floor space and utilize a lbit less wattage than a horizontal...

*eg: in a coli. you grow stout indicas with no reach that would yield like shit horizontally, anyway...
in a columnar vertical unit, such as the cage or growcube, you have much more room and can grow sativa dom. genetics with some veg time... 2oz per plant site x120 with 2k watts is unbeatable any way you spin it.

good luck with whatever you choose

 

[researchOnly]

in order for a vertical grow to outperform a horizontal grow, you have to use the right plant for the job.*

small-scale vert. will do nothing for you except decrease floor space and utilize a lbit less wattage than a horizontal...

*eg: in a coli. you grow stout indicas with no reach that would yield like shit horizontally, anyway...
in a columnar vertical unit, such as the cage or growcube, you have much more room and can grow sativa dom. genetics with some veg time... 2oz per plant site x120 with 2k watts is unbeatable any way you spin it.

good luck with whatever you choose

ethereal, I want to run a 3x600 watt using the 48 site hydrogon hut. after reading that you said your friend has great results with 1200, I am more enthusied about my project.
1) do you think that 48 sites is too low a count to take advantage of vertical grows??????
2) I see that the cage is vertical while the hydrogon is horizontal. what are the advantage to both (is it more like sativas vs iditica, like you stated) ??? i was really sold on the hydrogon until you guys introduced me to these vertical/vertical grows..?

 

[ethereal]

no idea what the hydrogon is...but if you do a search here you will find many a thread covering the details.

the cage is worth it if you have a location where you can keep multiple mothers to snip the 72 or whatever cuts off as needed, at once. it will more than pay for iteself the 1st time around...my buddy gets like 9lbs a chop lol... oh yeah, it was (2)600w digital hps he used for that run, and if you dig deep enough the grow is posted here be well

 

[MaxYield]

Here's what I've been working on for some time.

I've done this with paint, so the dimension ratio are not good, I just wanted to show the principle, and working with paint is not really fast :S.

Their's much more involved in the system such as :
- CO2 controller
- FF (Foliar Feeding) periodically
- TAG with mister (Pod you've convinced me to go TAGway)
- Lights : 8 x 54W T5HO + 90 x 200mW LED + 40 x 5W LED = 650W
- Temp/ humidity control
- ...

The idea is to put 4 plants on each side and using the F1 fast TAG/FF style grow to begging the plants on 12/12 (maybe 13/11) for the entire grow. That would enable me to have 2 grow in one box (start side #1, wait 1 month, start side #2, wait 1 month, finish side #1, restart side #1, and so on) for 1 crop each month on strains that flower 8 weeks.

Every day both side would need to be flipped (turned 180 degree), so both side of the canopy can get the intensity of T5HO.

I found out that a 4' (length) x 2' (height) x 16" (width) would be good for the system to work.

Of course another chamber would be needed to maintain clone and mother, but I think this should work just fine.

The T5HO will provide quality light without too much heat and they will produce almost perfect light distribution. Not that much light loss since the box is kinda small and square (so the isolation is easy).

On top of each screen will have a tube providing mist for FF another one would be for the CO2. On top because the mist and CO2 are heavier than air .

I'm still working on my idea so it may change, so if you have any idea shoot them.

I'm still ignoring if the screen dimension is alright. I was thinking of 2 square foot (2' high x 1' width) for each plant. But I don't know if they will fill up that area, that's why I'm really counting on TAG/FF for fast growth.

 

[KingRalph]

Max, i don't mean to be down-putting but that's a really bad design. the point of vertical is to not have to veg obscene amounts of time like your vertical screen would require. that just... it blows my mind why that would ever be made. to fit in a closet maybe? massive waste, sorry. stick to horizontal; if you think that's a good design, you need to stay simple

the Hydrogon's concept is of course good, but the design is crap. that is in no way more efficient than horizontal. a tray would do just as well as that. their true octagon systems are a little better but, in all honesty, Betterboy's octagon is many times better in design. i encourage people to check his out. he's gone through any kinks already.

also the cage is nice, the cube is even better. i came up with an idea and GoldDustWomen implemented it with his own twists and awesomely worked through different ideas and kinks of the system, you can find that thread, DIY Vertical Cooler System or something of the like.... this design will be the premiere vert DIY system, i'm finally finishing one up here and will post more about it once it's finished (delayed so long as horizontals kept me busy) it won't need to be aero and can be accessed from the inside is all that makes it nicer than betterboy's. of course BB has a completed design so anyone interested now should really make the jump and replicate his system! it's a great design.

i hope everyone starts to think vertically. efficiency is the name of the game peace n green thumbs all

 

[ethereal]

great post ralph.

any naysayers need just take a gander at the numbers... that goes for everyone PMing me on this..

how many grams do you average running horizontal hydroponics from clone given 2-3 weeks veg time post-rooting? at least an ounce per if you have a decent strain and ample light. 2+ if youre good. 3 if it's a heavyweight champ piece of genery

that said lets put our thinking caps on, shall we?

the cage:
72 grow sites. (2) 600w digital HPS, (2) 1000w HID, OR (3) 400w HID will do the job. + cooltube.
72 (sites) x 28 grams (1oz)= 2016 grams
2016/448=4.5pounds ...off 1200watts in the cage. easily!

double those #s for dialed in plants of moderate to high yield.
triple these numbers for high yielding plants grown by experienced individuals.

the 120 site (2kw customizable) DIY cube such as what KR is mid-build in, will yield the following #s:
120 (sites) x 28 grams (1oz) = 3360 grams.
3360/448=7.5 lbs from (2) 1000w HPS. and this is the ultra-conservative estimate! 2oz is achievable no doubt.

hope this clears things up...lol....

again, keep in mind 28 grams is a way lowball estimate for clones vegged IN HYDRO. for 2-3 weeks.

one may also choose to grow multiple strains with seperate nute requirements with ralph's design

 

[DimeBag65]

Cant wait to put this to the test, you all have inspired me with this verticle growing, when the right time comes i will definately be coming back to find pointers here. Love the post guys, Hope to see more grows using this in them to come. Hail the leaf, Dime

 

[MaxYield]

Max, i don't mean to be down-putting but that's a really bad design. the point of vertical is to not have to veg obscene amounts of time like your vertical screen would require. that just... it blows my mind why that would ever be made. to fit in a closet maybe? massive waste, sorry. stick to horizontal; if you think that's a good design, you need to stay simple

Can you elaborate more on that??

I thought vertical grow was most likely used to best use the light that you have!!

I would use T5HO for few simple reasons:
1st, I can make the ballast for each bulb, so it keep the cost down
2nd, I loved the light spectrum of those T5HO, wayyyyyy better than any HPS or MH, but with intensity loss (their's the Vertical and small space idea come from)
3rd, the bulb are insanely cheap, I can buy a 40 bulbs pack for 120$ (So I could replace the light 5 times without buying more light, huge long term save)
4th, even light distribution
5th, since they don't radiate IR, they are pretty low on heat emission
6th, they are 5/8" in diameter vs around 2" for HPS and fat ass for MH, so the cooling chamber can really slim

I was actually thinking of no vegging time at all, well enough for the rooting (in another chamber), but nothing after that. As I said I' counting a lot on a fast grow with constant foliar feeding and TAG with misters.

The picture doesn't represent the dimension good enough(it look square, but isn't), the screen would be 24" x 48", giving 24" x 12" for each plant. I was thinking that it would be better to have more space between each branch so the light can go all around the plant and would give the plant more aeration.

Maybe I should go with 12"x12" for each plant instead and do 2 of those system.

I had more idea's for vertical growing and still in the process of finding the good one. Lol funny because while writing this I had another way to use those T5HO.

I would use those plant support.


Their would be 2 column on each grow chamber, they would be put on each end of the chamber.


I would still be able to turn the screen 180 degree so it each side of the canopy get the full light, and I can at minimum double the number of plant, in the picture I put 10 plants, but I did this in like 15min, so didn't take the real dimension into consideration. I even have more height to play with, so I could add 2' T5HO to get more canopy area.

 

[ethereal]

hey man...i aint shootin ya down either, in fact, i encourage EVERYONE to implement new ideas...

its just that your design is not feasable. you need to run HID lamps and if not its going to cost a HELL of a lot more money to set iup and run, with less efficiency then HID can offer.

just to touch on the t5 thing....not that its the biggest problem you'd have....

I would use T5HO for few simple reasons:
1st, I can make the ballast for each bulb, so it keep the cost down
no. actually it would be more cost-efficient to run multiple-light ballasts.
2nd, I loved the light spectrum of those T5HO, wayyyyyy better than any HPS or MH, but with intensity loss (their's the Vertical and small space idea come from)
just because YOU, a human being with eyes likes the color better, doesnt mean the plants do!
3rd, the bulb are insanely cheap, I can buy a 40 bulbs pack for 120$ (So I could replace the light 5 times without buying more light, huge long term save)
the bulbs are NOT insanely cheap haha where did you find t5 lamps larger than a penis for 3 bucks a pop? only way this is possible is MAYBE chinese manufacturing, and even then 3 is way low, try double that for wholesale, and chinese import lamps are TOTAL JUNK. i advise you keep your distance and utilize only 'domestic' (japanese,euro,usa) brand bulbs.
4th, even light distribution
how so? the flourescent has very little penetration power compared to the HID's. not for nothin amigo, but a single 400w HPS hung over your system there would probably serve you better.
5th, since they don't radiate IR, they are pretty low on heat emission
IR = Infrared... all light bulbs have an IR heat signature. where are you getting your information!? you'd be surprised how warm a densly packed t5 rack can get. i prefer t4 size, myself, for early veg. stage, for this very reason!
6th, they are 5/8" in diameter vs around 2" for HPS and fat ass for MH, so the cooling chamber can really slim
are you serious...?

wait for the do-it-yourself thread ralph has planned, friends... you will find it is a very easy to customize/adapt to suit the needs of your space/budget/balls. it costs less to build then the pre-fabricated designs and produces more, while allowing space for plants over 2 feet in final height. it truly will be a revolutionary point in MJ growing history when all growers have the means in front of them to put together a sytem that will occupy only a small corner of their grow room that runs under 2kw and produces a half dozen kilos every 3 months. just be patient as it takes a while to make something of this magnitude from scratch, properly. i have faith in my homie tho he'll get it out there sooner than later, just bare with him

be well, friends

 

[researchOnly]

no idea what the hydrogon is...but if you do a search here you will find many a thread covering the details.

the cage is worth it if you have a location where you can keep multiple mothers to snip the 72 or whatever cuts off as needed, at once. it will more than pay for iteself the 1st time around...my buddy gets like 9lbs a chop lol... oh yeah, it was (2)600w digital hps he used for that run, and if you dig deep enough the grow is posted here be well

Ethereal, this is a pic of the 48 site hydrogon.. let me know what you think, i have never seen the cage or cube in person but i can imagine that it is bigger than a 4'x4' area.... the hydrogon is capable of fillin a 4'x4' hut which will suit me greatly... again, thank you very much for your input.

 

[ethereal]

nice lil system there...but is it really worth the dough?
as ralph said you could run a table (or 2!) in that spcae and pull the same harvest (.5-2lbs)
but to each his own id rather make it for pennies then buy it prefab, but thats just my

 

[researchOnly]

ralph, do you have a rough idea on the dimensions of your project.... and btw good luck on this BANGIN project, I'm rooting for you bro!!

 

[KingRalph]

research that's using 3 lights! (though maybe 400's wouldn't be bad) for only 16 plants a light, a flood n drain table full with 5" pots with a 600w light would perform as well as that, for muuuuuch cheaper. it's a decent design but not too practical. and even if you decided that was good, look at how simple it would be to construct... screw their price and having to order and have that hydro equipment shipped n delivered

the dimensions of the big cooler system is about 6ft wide or so, maybe another foot in spots for external reservoirs stickin out...



now this can of course just be scaled down to a smaller cooler with fewer columns as you see the smaller one compared here... then you have a system 4 feet wide... more spots than the hydrogon... 1 less light... use 2x 400w for this as opposed to 600s for the biggun... way more efficient and of course cheaper than a hydrogon....



Max you're gettin a bit more of a better viewpoint by stacking plant sites higher with the coolers instead of one set of horizontal plants trained upwards, the point is to use all sides of the light possible... 360degrees ideally... you don't need to flip the plants to get both sides, the plants grow to get enough from "one side". really going vertical with fluorescents is a waste but do whatever, use just two cooler units like that sure, making some sides with LEDs is absurd... try and remain simple, and TAG aero is not worth it imho, aero has too easy a fail rate, pump goes out boom everythin's dead in hours... just try and think a bit more practically is what i'm getting at. we try to advance and maximize and increase efficiency... with simplicity love your progressive thinkin attitude though! best of luck in all your research n designing

well i've got more constructing to do... i won't put up a DIY until the system is 100% complete so it can be shown step-by-step all at once. until then, peace n green thumbs all

 

[MaxYield]

1st, I can make the ballast for each bulb, so it keep the cost down
no. actually it would be more cost-efficient to run multiple-light ballasts.

I mean here to build the ballast, a lot of the parts needed for the making of a ballast are free for me (I'm going to a engineering school in electrical, so I have access to many freebies). I calculated that it would cost me around 10$ to light 4 T5HO bulbs

2nd, I loved the light spectrum of those T5HO, wayyyyyy better than any HPS or MH, but with intensity loss (their's the Vertical and small space idea come from)
just because YOU, a human being with eyes likes the color better, doesnt mean the plants do!

I totally understand that the human eye have a different sensitivity graph than plants do. I was saying that because after seeing the spectral graph of T5HO 5000K and HPS or MH, you can see that the T5HO relative intensity for each wavelength is all the same, where for MH and HPS, they have huge peaks and low minimum.

T5HO are recognize to produce better quality lower yielding.

3rd, the bulb are insanely cheap, I can buy a 40 bulbs pack for 120$ (So I could replace the light 5 times without buying more light, huge long term save)
the bulbs are NOT insanely cheap haha where did you find t5 lamps larger than a penis for 3 bucks a pop? only way this is possible is MAYBE chinese manufacturing, and even then 3 is way low, try double that for wholesale, and chinese import lamps are TOTAL JUNK. i advise you keep your distance and utilize only 'domestic' (japanese,euro,usa) brand bulbs.

you where saying?? http://www.e-conolight.com/Product/EProductDetail.asp?ProductFamilyID=25&FGNumber=~LF54T5850-C

4th, even light distribution
how so? the flourescent has very little penetration power compared to the HID's. not for nothin amigo, but a single 400w HPS hung over your system there would probably serve you better.

Tell me why I would need penetration when the light and reflector will be at 3" (bulb to screen = 3", screen to wall = 3", bulb to wall = 6"). By penetration I understand that it mean the lower branches get more or less light. That penetration come from the reflected light on leaves, stems, ..., Since you don't have anywhere you're getting less light you have less reflected light and more direct one.

By light distribution I meant that if you compare a 432 w T5HO system vs a Son Agro 430 HPS. With the HPS you'll have a single source of light in the center of your canopy area, which mean that at all extremity you have less intensity than directly underneath. With a T5HO system you'll have the same amount of light all across the canopy area since those light are 4' long

5th, since they don't radiate IR, they are pretty low on heat emission
IR = Infrared... all light bulbs have an IR heat signature. where are you getting your information!? you'd be surprised how warm a densly packed t5 rack can get. i prefer t4 size, myself, for early veg. stage, for this very reason!

http://www.nurturelite.com/extra.htm

"Fluorescents create light by passing an electrical current through mercury vapor, producing UV light. The UV causes the phosphor powder coating on the inside of the tube to fluoresce, thus emitting light in the visible spectrum. With different phosphors generating different wavelengths of light, the colours can be controlled and customized by varying the combinations of phosphors used. Because the light is emitted from the phosphors, which are spread over a large surface area, coating the entire inside of the lamp, the light is not intense.

HID's produce light by passing electrical current through different metal vapors, NO coating of phosphor in the way , but only gases which are controllable, safe and reliable can be used. So, the colours (different wavelengths of light) are severely constrained by the limited types of metal vapors that can be used. However, the radiation that is emitted is very INTENSE and often includes copious amounts of Infra Red for you to burn things with, like plant tops."

6th, they are 5/8" in diameter vs around 2" for HPS and fat ass for MH, so the cooling chamber can really slim
are you serious...?

Yup...!

I'm still working on this, at least now I can precise more the idea.

 

[MaxYield]

I've done some homework, first time on 3D drawing.

The system is more complex than the other, but I think it might just work.

Everything is scaled, I've used the right dimension for bulb and isolation glass.

FRONT VIEW:


TOP VIEW:


ISOMETRIC VIEW:


As you can see their are 7 different chamber that all have a different purpose.

Each long and thin cylinder are T5HO @ 54W

Click on the TOP VIEW image if you want to follow me here.

The position of each chamber are important since they don't have equal amount of light. Also this system is for a perpetual grow, looking at a crop each 2 weeks.

Vegging Section:
Chamber A and C are vegging chamber: They have (2xT5HO) a total of 108W of light. 2 weeks in veg. The number of plant is 6.

Chamber B is the mother chamber: it has (4xT5HO) a total of 216W. All year long. I'm guessing 2 mothers max (2 different strains) or one huge.

Flowering Section:
Chamber D and G are beginning flowering phase. They have (6xT5HO) a total of 324W. During the first month of flowering. This chamber is where I can buffer the grow time to fit a perpetual crop. This way I could start new seedling every 2 weeks.

Chamber E and F are end flowering phase. They have (10xT5HO) a total of 540W. Until the end of flowering, but for perpetual purpose, it must be a 1month long. So I must harvest at week 8 of flowering without consideration on the strain. Well they must at least take 8 weeks to flower.

Each module will have roulette so I can move the module from one chamber to another and work on the screen of each module easily.

The reservoir is the little box you see of the bottom of each module.

For mist delivery I'll use 1/4" tubing and an air pump. with a "Y" fitting I will be able to create a depression in the tubing (with the air pump) that will suck the mist into the tubing and will distribute to each plant. Plus I would add a submersible pump and will pump liquid nutrients, as a back up.

 

[KingRalph]

as i can see, that is in no way more efficient than a horizontal setup. as i can see, you are trying to make a rocketship to be able to roll down a hill. i am not putting down your engineering skills. i am a perfectionist engineer myself, but i remain PRACTICAL. but if you are this far gone in your skewed thinking of design, nothing anyone can say will help you. i wish you the best of luck in construction and hope you realize sooner rather than later what those mistakes are. peace.

 

[MaxYield]

Why are you saying not more efficient than horizontal? Is it because of the T5HO or the system itself?

I understand that it might be complex, but what I would need is reason why you think so, it would help me more this way.