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Upper leaves clawing, bottom fan leaves getting yellow tips

papaduc

Active member
Veteran
I don't think I explained properly. I don't mean that 24hr light is the problem, or that plants can't handle it. In a perfect environment and with a thriving plant, they usually will, even though I do give mine a work break.

What I mean is that there are obviously some slight stress factors at play in that tent, and in that case, the plant won't be able to process that light; the light will become a stress to it at the point when the plant wants to shut down.

All in all they look good considering they were little sprouts a week or so ago. But there are some changes you need to make, one of which being get a Ph pen, the other light-proofing the pots.

Also, when you water, water around the outside of the pot and not at the base of the plant. Again, this is something you can easily get away with when the plant is vigorous but not when it's not.

Also, you're running hempy buckets and you're already watering til run through. Again, this is another case where variables come into play and why people can't make big claims that any pot or bucket or light or system is a foolproof way to get huge plants and huge yields.

In that type of pot I'd always suggest to water lightly until the roots are right through the pot. Then start watering til run through once in a while. When the plant is dying out the pot daily, start feeding to run off daily.

What happens in the meantime is the res at the bottom will become anaerobic. Regardless of how much air coco holds, once that res is watered, if it is left for days, it'll contain little oxygen and will be prohibitive to the rootzone. People say to flood it daily to prevent this.

For me that's not good practice because you're using a lot of nutrients along with your water which the plant isn't using, all just to oxygenate a small area at the base because your plant's roots are not drinking it yet. It's a process which will work to keep fresh water supplied to the rootzone but it's also a lot of wasted nutes into the water supply when what you should be doing is gently coaxing the plants into the pot.

These are things you only get used to with hands on experience tbh. They're little adjustments to your methods which help you get the most from the plants and enable you to ease them through any stress they're having.

One thing I forget if I mentioned, but definitely get a thermostatically controlled heater for the night time. Major investment. Low night temps will really affect the plants. But, spring's here now and that should be less of a problem in a few weeks. In the meantime, run your lights at night and get one when you can.
 

DrBagseed

Member
The two questions I was going to ask you were:

1. How many hours of light had they had at the time the pictures were taken.

2. What are your night temps.

Then I saw that.


Your plants can't process that light. Give them a break.

You also need to check your ph with something more accurate than drops. And you need a heater for the night time.

In the meantime, every 10 hours, give them a 2 hour break. The room will never get cold enough quickly enough in that time to be a problem and they'll still be getting 20hrs a day. Plus, they will never be processing more than 10 hours light at a time. For plants which aren't motoring for whatever reason that's important.

You also need to make the containers light proof.

When you water, how are you doing it, and what temp is the water?

They actually look good considering how old they are. Last week they were tiny seedlings. You'd have the same problems in soil if your environment isn't all set up for them.

Thanks for the help papaduc, and it means a lot that you think they look good.

Are you sure it wont stress them with having the lights of twice per day? It does seem like a good schedule for me but I want to be on the safe side.

Sorry, I don't think I worded my post properly. I don't mean that 24hr light is the problem, or that plants can't handle it. In a perfect environment and with a thriving plant, they usually will, even though I do give mine a work break.

What I mean is that there are obviously some slight stress factors at play in that tent, and in that case, the plant won't be able to process that light; the light will become a stress to it at the point when the plant wants to shut down.

All in all they look good considering they were little sprouts a week or so ago. But there are some changes you need to make, one of which being get a Ph pen, the other light-proofing the pots.

Also, when you water, water around the outside of the pot and not at the base of the plant. Again, this is something you can easily get away with when the plant is vigorous but not when it's not.

Also, you're running hempy buckets and you're already watering til run through. Again, this is another case where variables come into play and why people can't make big claims that any pot or bucket or light or system is a foolproof way to get huge plants and huge yields.

In that type of pot I'd always suggest to water lightly until the roots are right through the pot. Then start watering til run through once in a while. When the plant is dying out the pot daily, start feeding to run off daily.

What happens in the meantime is the res at the bottom will become anaerobic. Regardless of how much air coco holds, once that res is watered, if it is left for days, it'll contain little oxygen and will be prohibitive to the rootzone. People say to flood it daily to prevent this.

For me that's not good practice because you're using a lot of nutrients along with your water which the plant isn't using, all just to oxygenate a small area at the base because your plant's roots are not drinking it yet. It's a process which will work to keep fresh water supplied to the rootzone but it's also a lot of wasted nutes into the water supply when what you should be doing is gently coaxing the plants into the pot.

These are things you only get used to with hands on experience tbh. They're little adjustments to your methods which help you get the most from the plants and enable you to ease them through any stress they're having.

One thing I forget if I mentioned, but definitely get a thermostatically controlled heater for the night time. Major investment. Low night temps will really affect the plants. But, spring's here now and that should be less of a problem in a few weeks. In the meantime, run your lights at night and get one when you can.

Thanks for good and clear information!

I think im going to take the chance on 4 hours dark today, I am kinda scared to screw something up with the lights going off twice.
 

papaduc

Active member
Veteran
Well, go for it and see how they get on. If you've got a thermometer, find out what the lowest temp is after the two hours dark.
 

Jnugg

Active member
Veteran
I saw your other thread about wanting to do a whole room DrBagseed...first you must learn the basics...patience young grasshoppa!
 

DrBagseed

Member
Haha jnugg :p

I just had two hours of darkness, the temperature was 19c when I turned the lights on again so I guess I got to put the heater in there on a timer. That was with the fan blowing btw, is it okay to turn that off while lights are off?
 

papaduc

Active member
Veteran
Which fan? Exhaust or floor fan?
Exhaust, no. Keep it running. Won't matter much now but when they get bigger they'll stink up the house if you switch the exhaust off at lights out.

Btw, is the oscillating fan aimed at the plants or the bulb?

19c isn't bad at all btw. That's if it's the lowest it's getting to.
 

DrBagseed

Member
Which fan? Exhaust or floor fan?
Exhaust, no. Keep it running. Won't matter much now but when they get bigger they'll stink up the house if you switch the exhaust off at lights out.

Btw, is the oscillating fan aimed at the plants or the bulb?

19c isn't bad at all btw. That's if it's the lowest it's getting to.

yeah, oscillating fan, that was the word I was trying to remember while typing that post. It is aimed at the light but it gives the plants a little wiggle too, I stopped the rotating and aimed it away from the plant while the light was off just in case, but I'll just keep it off, that way ill probably stay over 20c, then I could get by without the heater.

btw, I have pre flowers on one of the mazaris, is it okay if I veg it for another month or so still? I'd have to take it out of the tent to flower it earlier than that, and I want at least 50cm more heigt.
 

Jnugg

Active member
Veteran
Exhaust fan needs to stay on 24/7 or at timed intervals for ventilation.If you were to turn it off at night the RH% would spike through the roof.

As long as it is not an autoflower you can veg it for as long as you want.
 

DrBagseed

Member
Im starting to think its irreversible...

YlDFPG8.png


The leaves do look good besides the hanging part.

I tried feeding her via the run off tray + giving her some water on top, lets see how that works out.
 
N

NoSocSlic

Agreed

Agreed

I've tried 24, 20-4 and 18-6 multiple times and never saw any difference in growth veg. It's all a load of crap to me so why waste the money on 24. Any noob is bound to go 24 because of all the BS posts about 24 producing 33% better growth.


I veg for even less 15/11 or dare I say 14/10, because of that whole more light = more males thing. I do the longer dark periods and the plants veg just the same.
 
N

NoSocSlic

edit* 15/9 would be nice to add 2 hours to a day but that's not my schedule lol
 

papaduc

Active member
Veteran
Im starting to think its irreversible...

I tried feeding her via the run off tray + giving her some water on top, lets see how that works out.

If you're in hempy buckets, how are you feeding via the tray?

Also, are they still in clear containers?

Take a picture with the lights off if you can and take a picture of the roots.

Has your Ph pen arrived yet?
 

DrBagseed

Member
If you're in hempy buckets, how are you feeding via the tray?

Also, are they still in clear containers?

Take a picture with the lights off if you can and take a picture of the roots.

Has your Ph pen arrived yet?

I have it in a bucket but put it on a tray and let it soak all it wanted. 2 hempys in semi clear containers but will take care off it tomorrow. Also gonna transplant the small ones to 5l then. But how do you transplant hempy?

Yeah I'll get those pics tomorrow. No it hasn't arrived.. I was told to check mail one more time then ill prob get refund wich sucks because I think they are out off stock.. But many clearly better sellers so no worry.. Just really hoping its there tomorrow
 
N

NoSocSlic

Well I'm only trying to grow one small bush so it works in my situation. 14/10 worked fine. but increasing dark time increases odds off females supposedly. Along with some other things. blue light spectrum; more nitrogen less potassium; wetter as opposed to drier. It was a list I read somewhere, in response to feminized seeds not truly being all female, and how to get a better ratio.
 

papaduc

Active member
Veteran
I have it in a bucket but put it on a tray and let it soak all it wanted. 2 hempys in semi clear containers but will take care off it tomorrow. Also gonna transplant the small ones to 5l then. But how do you transplant hempy?

Yeah I'll get those pics tomorrow. No it hasn't arrived.. I was told to check mail one more time then ill prob get refund wich sucks because I think they are out off stock.. But many clearly better sellers so no worry.. Just really hoping its there tomorrow

Ok. I'm still not clear.

You've got a single hole drilled into the side of teh bucket, yea?

So, you mean you're filling a container with enough water to reach that hole, then the pot is soaking it up?

Are you not top feeding at all?
If you are, explain in detail how you are doing it.

I think you could be making a few basic mistakes here and that's where your problem is.

Explain your watering process in detail. From getting it out the tap to mixing it up to feeding. Is it teipd/cold, do you mix food then ph, do you water round the edge of the pot til run off... explain that.

Also, how far above the plant is the bulb in inches. Show me a picture of your setup from a plant's height view which shows where the fan is aimed and where the bulb is etc.

Weed is a simple herb to grow, any issues like this usually have a very simple answer.
 

DrBagseed

Member
Ok. I'm still not clear.

You've got a single hole drilled into the side of teh bucket, yea?

So, you mean you're filling a container with enough water to reach that hole, then the pot is soaking it up?

Are you not top feeding at all?
If you are, explain in detail how you are doing it.

I think you could be making a few basic mistakes here and that's where your problem is.

Explain your watering process in detail. From getting it out the tap to mixing it up to feeding. Is it teipd/cold, do you mix food then ph, do you water round the edge of the pot til run off... explain that.

Also, how far above the plant is the bulb in inches. Show me a picture of your setup from a plant's height view which shows where the fan is aimed and where the bulb is etc.

Weed is a simple herb to grow, any issues like this usually have a very simple answer.

No... The hempy buckets are all top fed..I was almost asleep when I wrote that post.
I tried watering the smart pot yesterday from a run off tray which I use for the hempy buckets, of course without run off in it. I also fed it from the top first. then put it back in the bucket. The roots are growing in the air inside the bucket. It seemed to actually have gotten a bit healthier today! All I let it do was soak up as much feed as it wanted after getting a light watering from the top.

I mix coco a+b then rhizo then enzym, this usually gives me a indication of 6 pH on the drop test, then I add a little canna grow pH down(nitric acid), this gives it a little darker yellow color on the drop test so I presume its right under 6 pH.
I feed it with water ranging from 10c-15c and the hempys have only one hole drilled into them yeah. I feed them with a water bottle with a hole in it, im going to buy a ''sprayer'' pressure kinda thing one of the next days.

And... no damn pH meter today.. so damn frustrating. Ill be getting money back or a re-ship though but I'd rather of had paid double and have it by now instead..

I also raised the light a few cm after these pictures but it has been even closer without any noticeable problems besides actually touching a leaf and burning it but I need the light over a wider area now.


Seems to finally be recovering!
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It's an oscillating fan so it blows throughout the whole room. Its placed directly in the middle up against one of the walls. Sorry for the bad pictures but it was already dark outside so I couldn't take a picture with the hps off
 

papaduc

Active member
Veteran
Now, that makes things a lot more clear. Thanks for taking those pictures, it helps a lot.

In that thread the other day where you were asking about another 300w of LED to put in there, I could see you were making a big mistake beginners usually do.

Light = energy for the plant, but people take that right out of context and assume the more intense the better; the more energy it will get. That's not right. You've got to balance it out.

Too close will increase the heat, the leaves can't transpire properly and the plant can't process the light. When that happens you get signs. Those are what you saw. Sometimes it can happen even when the light is up high enough, because the plant just can't process the energy for whatever reason, but those were the signs your plant was showing.

They look a lot better now regardless, but still, raise that light a good 6 inches. You'll see that a happy plant grows quicker than a stressed one, and if moving the light a bit further away makes it happier, do it. You'll see the difference within 2 days.

Also, don't feed the plant cold water. 10c is cold to the plant and it will shock the roots. 18-22c is where you want to be at when hand watering. no lower than that.

Also, the bottle with a hole cut out... What will happen when you water from a point source like that is a large amount of the water will run through the coco because the coco cannot absorb it quickly enough. It won't evenly saturate the root ball and it's just another minor stress which will impact on their appearance.

When I looked at your problems I had a good feeling they were rooted in some simple basic mistakes. You've got no real problems really and if you apply that advise you'll see them continue growing vigorously very soon.

Drop the EC to 1.0 btw, if it's not already there.
 

DrBagseed

Member
Yeah, it seems to have helped a lot with just doing those few small things, I'm going to feed them with warmer water today and at 1 EC, I think thats what I regularly am at but I dont remember quite.
I see what you mean, but I'm gonna try that led out and see what happens, worst case scenario I get hps with a dimable ballast instead and use that led in a smaller grow box, I've been considering making a wooden one to save a few bucks.

They did look a lot better this morning, I cant wait to check them in a little bit. I wont be feeding them this way anymore, I think what your saying has been happening to them already with getting water running straight through the pots so I'll have to buy a sprayer tomorrow, it will make things easier also, I've been hitting the leaves with the nutrients and they have dried of with salt residue.

But I need some advice on the transplanting which will happen this week. How does the perlite thing work? Do I add perlite as normal to the bottom of the new bucket, then add coco, and put the plant in there with the perlite and roots intact? Like.. I would have perlite at the bottom, then coco, then the perlite from the old bucket right in the middle of the pot.

Thanks for your help bro.
 

papaduc

Active member
Veteran
Whatever your mix is, keep it consistent through the pot. If it's a 50/50 mix now, make a 50/50 mix up to transplant into.

Make a base of perlite up to the hole, then just tip the whole ball out of the pot, and pot it up into the new mix.

Just remember with the light, that your plants were stressed in the first place is because of too much light, not too little. I know that's a big thing to really come to terms with when you first start growing; It's hard to resist the urge to give them more.

400w is perfect for how big they are now. Even if you had a 1000w bulb you'd get no more out of it at that stage than a 400 at the right range. When it gets a bit bigger, and has more foliage and root mass to process light, and when the 400 won't penetrate it as efficiently as 600/1000, then at that point the 1000w would come into it's own. Do you know what I'm saying?

Getting your grow tuned in is about adjusting things one way or the other and appreciating the reaction. In your case, you need to go the other way with the light to be in the sweet spot.

When they're bigger then yep, stick the led in, go for it. Give it it's own bit of the canopy and see how it gets on. But for the main part, make sure you're getting the most out of the 400
 
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