Undocumented?

[FatherEarth]

Ive searched High and low for a picture that looks like what I have going on. I have a suspicion it may be silicon toxicity, although everything Ive read says it either doesnt happen or its so far undocumented. Im growing organic in soil and have seen this two runs in a row, using silicates being the main thing that has remained the same except this run I backed off on the amounts and frequency. I got comfortable and up'd the silicates going into flowering and its back again. I took clones that had this symptom and as the clones grew it trans located to new growth for a few sets of leaves then went away. These symptoms are in various places around the plant top to bottom scattered seemingly random, some not even in the light. It seems it gets going after I let the pots get a little dry. Not super dry but dry enough my conductivity meter would get a low reading. I have foliar fed but not recently, except with plain water. The only thing Ive foliar fed that is consistent with the last run I saw this is Pro tekt silicate and kelp extract. I just watered with
Ag Sil 16H in my mix before I saw it take a sharp turn and start becoming a concern. The plants otherwise seem fine, growing fast and stacking buds, no other indications that something is wrong except these gnarled leaves and buds. Also, Ive got a bit of yellowing from light burn going on in the upper tops

Another thing to possibly consider is our well water is high in copper. High enough that if I drink the water it makes me nauseated and feeling like something is wrong. The water at one time was near perfect PH we had a bit of dry spell this summer and it dropped down to around 5.3-5.6 In turn this speeds up oxidation in the old copper pipes, leaky faucets have blue stains in the sink.

Just started week 3 of flowering yesterday

Soil PH is 6.2-6.4

Soil temperature 61-62 degrees

Soil conductivity 4-500

Room temps 81-86

Brix levels 11-13%


the soil mix consists of Pro Moss, Perlite medium grade and #4 Chunky, Green waste compost, EWC, amended with
Organic:
Feather meal
cotton seed meal
blood meal
kelp meal
alfalfa meal
fish bone meal
K mag
azomite
par4
rock phosphate
calcite lime


Veg'd for 21 days
These are large plants in 65 gallon smart pots, the 400 gal smart beds, same mix same everything are fine although they are a different strain.

Whole room

small leaf with smooth edges

 

[FatherEarth]

 

[legalizeDK]

hi ive never seen this before and i don´t use silica myself, so i have no real exp. if the prob disapears when you dont use it (your cuttings) then i would say its a good quess that its the sil thats the problem. than again i have no exp myself.

hope you get it sorted out

 

[FatherEarth]

Close up under the microscope.

 

[FatherEarth]

How long has this problem been going on?
Noticed first signs of edges frying bout a week ago

What STRAIN are you growing?
D.O.G. unknown lineage

What was the establishing technique? (seed or clone?)
Clone

What is the age of your plants?
21 days of Veg 3 weeks 15 days of flowering

How long have they been in the soil mixture they are in now?
36 days

Were they in the same mixture when they were seedlings/smaller plant? If not, what mixture were they in before?
Black gold

How Tall are the plants?
aprox 40"

What PHASE (seedling, vegetative or flower) are the plants in?
flowering

What Technique are you using? (SOG, SCROG etc)
sea of trees, undergrowth trimmed heavily

What size pots are you using? (Include how many subjects to pot)
65 gallon smart pots, 2 plants each

What substrate/medium are you using? What brand of soil mixture are you using?(percentage of perlite, vermiculite...etc?) Amended:
40% green waste compost, 20% EWC, 20% perlite, 20% peat moss
This soil mix has worked with no problems previously.

What brand Nutrient's are you using? N/A
How much of each nutrient are you using with how much water? *Knowing the brand is very helpful*
N/A
How often are you feeding?
This soil recipe doesnt require feeding.
2 applications of AACT about so far about to do number 3.
Regular weekly foliar here are my foliars since january 4th
Jan4
calcium 25 followed instructions on container

Jan 5
Pure Protein Dry 15-1-1 9 grams per gallon
molasses 1tbsp per gallon, therm x70 .25tsp per gallon

jan 27
20ml fulvic acid(ful-power),1.25ml therm x70(yucca extract),1.5ml pro tekt per gallon

jan 29
Foliar fed with alfalfa enzyme tea a week ago CCootz recipe



If flowering, when did you switch over to using Bloom nutrients?
What order are you mixing your nutrients? (example: veg nutes 1st, bloom 2nd ect)N/A
What is the TDS/EC/PPM of your nutrients used? N/A

What is the pH of the "RUN-OFF"? Not sure how to answer that or if it applies

How often are you testing pH/ppm/EC/TDS?
Twice a week

What method of pH test was administered? Using Strips? pH pen?
Digital Soil pH Meter
http://www.hannainst.com/usa/news.cfm?Id=42

How often are you watering?


Here is what Ive watered with since jan 2 as I said before the only thing that is the same since last grow is the silicates and I saw this all over the plants.

Transplanted into beds 29th of december heavy water with AACT

January 3,
light watering humic acid protekt Si

scheduled January 15,
Day 17 watering, 50 gal 800 ml molasses, 65 ml Protekt, 350 ml kelp extract, 20 ml, Ej catalyst(for ph up), therm x 70 .25tsp per gallon , ph 6.5 exactly 55 gallons

Girls are growing fast drinking more often

scheduled January 19,
Water heavy, P silicate to PH up 30 ml per 55 gal, + Mosquito Dunks.

scheduled January 26, 2013
molasses 750 ml, protekt 60 ml, kelp extract 200 ml, ppd 1 tbsp per gal, ej catalyst 20 ml.
55 gallons

January 29, 2013
watered w 60 ml of pro tekt per 55 gal to balance the PH

Jan 31
Light water no additives cept ph up GH

February 4, 2013
watered w 800ml molasses, 300 ml fulvic, 120 ml ppd,27g ag sil, 40ml ph up= 6.4 ph
per 55 gal





When was your last feeding and how often are you feeding?
What size bulb are you using?
1k

How old is your bulbs?
1st run with them

What is the distance to the canopy?
18-24"
What is your RH Factor? (Relative Humidity)
65-80% until this week when flowers started stacking I dropped it to 65%

What is the canopy temperature?

81-86

What is the Day/Night Temp?
set to cool 80 at night soil keeps it warm so the fans kick on about twice an hour, just dropped the temps to 65 at night two days ago(Include fluctuation range)

What is the current Air Flow? (cfm etc.)
approx. 750-800 cfm
fan kicks on and off a lot. Not sure how many times per hour
Tell us about your ventilation, intake exhaust and when its running and not running ?
8" vortex exhaust sucking air in through multiple hepa filtered intakes. 8" intake with greenhouse hepa connected from an 10" reducer bringing in outside air. also a 6" vent with hepa , and a 16X20 space with furnace filters over an AC unit that allows air in. Runs off sentinel chhc 4 kicks on when the temp gets above 84, sensor hangs just above the plants in the canopy. cycles the co2 burner off and on when it exhausts

Is the fan blowing directly at plants?
There are fans blowing the plants 4 oscillating fans on low or med

Is the grow substrate constantly wet or moist?
moist, sometimes the top 1 inch dries out

Is your water HARD or SOFT?
soft
What water are you using? Reverse Osmosis (RO)? Tap? Bottled? Well water? Distilled? Mineral Water?
Well


If using tap water, what is the ppm/EC/TDS of the water right out of the tap?(Only if you have a tds pen)

well water 33ppm

If using RO,Distilled,mineral water, what is the ppm/EC/TDS without any additives?(Only if you have a tds pen)
Are you using water from a water softener?
NO
Has plant been recently pruned, cloned or pinched?
Yes lower branches pruned.
Last run it seemed like when i took branches off it got worse.
my hypothesis is..Its like it needs to spread out whatever is built up in the plant so trimming back makes it worse.

Have any pest chemicals been used? If so what and when?
Once before flowering 1.5 tbs per gallon of Dr Bronners pepermint soap as a preventative and part of regular IPM

Are plant's infected with pest's?
No.

 

[SeaMaiden]

Are the stems abnormally stiff and difficult to break? I am one of those who's never observed a Si+, either.

Let me do some searching for you.

Alright, so far not finding anything on Si+ in plants, finding other toxicities documented and discussed, but not Si. I believe that's likely because it's not a normal part of the feeding regimen in either the agricultural or horticultural worlds. I am finding some papers discussing using it as opposed to previously not using it, and what may be observed, but that's it.

 

[Sat X RB]

"... high in copper" "... blue stains in the sink".

just wonding if a look at "Mulders Chart" might help here to see what other minerals excess copper may inhibit?

and the blue in yr sink is most likely copper SULPHATE. (EDIT:sorry not nec sulphate, prob chloride/oxychloride.)

cheers!

 

[FatherEarth]

Yes the stems are tough and thick, hard to break yes. I dont need to stake em up at all and they normally would need something by now. Im staking them to keep them out of the light burning zone. They have swelling at branch unions looks like they are flexing their muscles. The leaves feel thick and rough like construction paper. They dont seem effected growth wise they stacking on but the burn is still spreading. Im almost certain that cutting back anymore branches or leaves just makes it worse. That could be why its jumping off now cause I cut back the lower half of the tree gradually over a two week period. Since Si is an accumulator, over time of constantly feeding its got to reach a threshold one would think. Too much of anything is bad. In the future, I will only hit them once a week full strength instead of every watering half strength and see how that works. Im about to dig deeper and see what else I can find. I think I may send a tissue sample in and also a sample of the soil/water and have it tested so I can pinpoint what is going on. Im also going to look into copper sulphate effects on plant growth and see what I can find. Thank you Sea Madien and Sat for your responses. Much appreciated. Anyone else who can even say yeah never seen anything like it will still be helping as it assures me Im not on the wrong track. .. Thanks again Ill keep you guys posted when I get some test results.



FE

 

[ozzieAI]

i grow organically using silica both in the soil amendment and as a foliar spray that produce hard stems that rarely need staking but have never seen that before....the only thing i see out of place is the water quality...

hope you are able to fix the problem and save your crop...good luck

 

[FatherEarth]

I would think it was the water too but Ive had successful crops with the same water before. If the water is burning the leaves like this you would think it would kill my animals or make them super sick at the very least. I do as recommended and allow the water to run for a bit before using it. That is supposed to allow the stuff marinating in the pipes to flush out and you have a much lower copper content in the water. Either way if I get all my inputs tested and tissue samples done that should answer my question.
Anyone know of places in the PNW that do tissue sampling of cannabis? Thanks in advance.


FE

 

[FatherEarth]

I wonder what the ideal amount of silicates cannabis needs for optimum growth. Sure it can take a lot and keep growing but what does it need. I mean cannabis also absorbs heavy metals out of soil and accumulates them and keeps growing, but it doesnt need them in large amounts if any. It would be nice to know the threshold or the maximum for beneficial growth. . .

 

[dank.frank]

I suppose to answer such a question you should probably first ask - what is the role of Si in the soil and why would a plant seek it for nutrition...

Which makes it first priority to point out that is an additive and not a primary or what is considered essential amendment.

Silica = Si + 02

Silicate = (P, Mg, K2)+Si+03

Silicic acid (mono) = what plants actually use = H4+Si+04

If you are using a SILICATE - you are not just adding Si to you medium...

Azomite - hydrated sodium calcium aluminosilicate

So the fact you are adding MORE - in addition to what you have already added to your base soil mix...



dank.Frank

 

[FatherEarth]

I totally understand Frank, thanks for commenting.

What I dont understand is: Are stating that plants dont utilize this additive?



For those who dont know about these additives:

Azomite
http://azomite.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=60&Itemid=53



"AZOMITE is unique highly mineralized ore that is a complex silica (Hydrated Sodium Calcium Aluminosilicate or HSCAS) mined in Utah from a deposit left by an ancient volcanic eruption that was ejected out of the side of a mountain. The volcanic ash filled a small nearby sea bed. The combination of seawater, fed by hundreds of rivers rich in minerals, and the rare and abundant minerals present in volcanic ash created the AZOMITEdeposit which is found nowhere else on Earth. The deposit is very old, perhaps as much as 30 million years. Today the geologic characteristic is an outcropping known as a hogback."

Dyna Gro Pro Tekt
http://florawww.eeb.uconn.edu/msds/Pro-Tekt_DataSheet.pdf

"Pro-TeKt 0-0-3 The Silicon Solution liquid supplement supplies higher levels of potassium and silicon to help plants build stronger cell walls. The stronger cell walls provide a Pro-TeKt-ive barrier against piercing-sucking insects and invading fungi. Applying Pro-TeKt 0-0-3 on a regular basis will minimize or eliminate the need for pesticides and fungicides. Additional benefits include increased stem strength and leaf positioning of plants, which improves photosynthesis; increased heat, drought and cold tolerance, plus longer lasting leaves and blooms. "

Ag Sil 16h
http://www.pqcorp.com/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=YrDNgSnDcGI=&tabid=140&mid=572

“AgSil®*potassium silicates serve as fertilizers for use in turf and crop applications as a source of soluble potassium and silicon”

 

[FatherEarth]

Also forgot to mention the Gaia Green Glacial Rock Dust in the compost tea, lol

http://www.groworganic.com/media/pdfs/f045-b.pdf

 

[dank.frank]

My point is you can't isolate the cause of the problem to specifically SiO2 as result of the nature of a "silcate" and what else it is bringing to the equation...

I'm not sure I understand the style of growing you are doing - with the adequate Si02 in the soil, which would allow the plant to dictate it's needs - but then force feed the roots Dyna...

Was your point to produce this particular response?



dank.Frank

 

[dank.frank]

And oh - pssssttt - here's a good .pdf for a further read on SiO2...

http://www.pnas.org/content/91/1/11.full.pdf



dank.Frank

 

[FatherEarth]

DF,

No I did not intend for this to happen. Im not sure you can call it a 'style'. I was under the impression that you could not give them too much, (within reason of course). So, I was using Pro tekt as a ph up for my acidic well water and as a foliar as part of my IPM. The azomite is 2% of the total amendments. The amendments are mixed in at a rate of 9lbs per yard of soil. Thanks for the PDF, much appreciated.

At any rate, the plants do not seem to be significantly effected by whatever is/was causing the deformities. Overall they seem healthy and on schedule.

Silicon uptake and accumulation in higher plants.pdf
http://www.aseanbiotechnology.info/abstract/21019928.pdf


Soluble Silicon; Its Role in Crop and Disease Management of Greenhouse Crops.pdf
http://dc.library.okstate.edu/utils/getfile/collection/Dissert/id/73568/filename/74259.pdf

flowering day 20

 

[OrganicOzarks]

My well water fluctuates throughout the year. In the winter when we have not had much rain or snow it runs low, and picks up more deposits than usual. It will sometimes even run dry for an hour or two. Then it comes out looking like you shared your glass of water with a 2 year old that just ate pizza.

 

[FatherEarth]

So plants are still doing well. Noticed more anomalies while trimming up the underbush. The stems are gnarly lumpy and hard with something that looks like hunch back growing on them. Its not uniform by any means.
Have a look and let me know what you think...? Anyone seen this in their garden?

 

[FatherEarth]