R
Rubber Chicken
Giuliani doing a great job 
Two ego maniacs sitting in a tree....
Two ego maniacs sitting in a tree....
Trump implies that he might legalize cannabis.
- Thread starter EasyGoing
- Start date
I'm curious what the people in the UK think of trump with the little rocket man comments, the tough talk on the UN and NATO, and his disregard for our long term friendships as the ones with the UK and Europe. I still don't know what to make of all the hand holding, hugging and kissing with Macron.
R
Rubber Chicken
I think he knows Macron is smarter than him, an will stand up to him, so he just stays 'buddy buddy' to avoid being humiliated in front of the world.
Trump flip-flops on so many subjects because he is being played, like a puppet on a string. To the global 'elites' he is a very useful idiot.
I honestly think that there is a globalists cabal that has held more power globally than any single President/Prime Minister/King/Ayatola/Mullah/Pope etc for much longer than I have been alive, and their power has increased exponentially in recent decades to cover just about every country bar Iran, Venezuela, Russia, Yemen, N.Korea and Syria....and currently are working on getting those countries on-board either thru regime change via fomenting/propagating wars and proxy wars in those lands via supporting insurgents and terrorist organizations.... and/or financial and industrial sanctions which aim at stifling any economic growth.
This group composed of the highest echelons of the aristocracy/monarchies, corporate/bank CEO's, religious and political leaders are all free masons and they meet annually as the Bilderburg Group in Davos Switzerland every year to plan what happens next....
Trump will never have the power to circumvent or stop the almost universal powers of this wide ranging group...and he is smart enough to figure that out with John F. Kennedy as an example as to what can happens if you don't toe their line....
Trump is engaged in attempting to 'drain the swamp' in Washington, but because that swamp is so inextricably linked to the globalists cabal, and has worked for them for so long he finds himself up against an indestructible wall of various alphabet agencies, some known and others in the shadows, hiding in plain sight that he will never be able to infiltrate and destroy, even if he wanted to.
The USA has the worlds largest and currently most proficient military forces bolstered by the military forces of several other allied nations that are all within the globalists control, and this force is used to incite and carry out wars that benefit the aims of the group upon the nations who do not comply to their wishes....
The Israeli government has used the US military/CIA as their 'Bitch' to start insurgencies and wars all over the middle east and Africa and the rest of the world for many years, and you will see in the coming months and years that their aims are to keep that whole region destabilized and at each others throats to diminish their capabilities of ever going on the offensive against Israel by keeping them at war with each other and themselves (civil wars) while allowing/pushing and encouraging millions of migrants/refugees into Europe who leave their lands to be grabbed by the Israeli's as they move/flee to new tax-payer funded homes and social support in Europe, N.America and Australia destabilizing and mixing with the unwitting/hoodwinked and ill-informed citizens of these Western nations to further and complete The Kalergi Plan, so lowering the average intelligence of Westerners thru heavily encouraged miscegenation and bankrolling these new 'settlers' with tax payers funds to out breed the resident/indigenous populations, allowing medieval mind-sets and ideologies to flourish by promoting the Abrahamic religions and not denigrating them (which needs to be done), since most all of the top actors within the globalist cabal are from these deeply religious backgrounds....and a vast proportion of these new migrants are also. These Abrahamic religions have always been used as a way to control billions of people today and throughout history by the elites, in fact they were invented in the first place solely for that purpose.
This globalist cabal controls just about all banking/money and media worldwide, and these are the main 'Tools' that are needed to further their aims, using propaganda and financial incentives/loans backed up by a massive and ever growing military/industrial complex to complete their plans for absolute and undisputed world domination, led by the very people that can just print money and control virtually all markets.
I could go on, but I reckon that you have the gist of what I can make out of it all thru studying and researching these issues for quite some time...
Regards....GN
*Link to Kalergi Plan thread.: https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?threadid=348315
Whoever you vote for you will not be voting for the real government that controls your government, within this sham of a mockery so-called democracy.
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There's allot going on there and following the money yields answers.
You give Trump too much credit. The only draining he's doing is huge staff turnover. He's like an angry, bratty, obnoxious, spoiled kid that keeps breaking his toys and wanting new ones. "Fire that guy, oh yeah, Fire that guy too". There were 15 indictments and 5 with felony convictions that included a general with a high level bio. Good draining there, except he was Trumps buddy. Trump did do some other downsizing. He decimated the EPA by convincing his followers that global warming is a hoax, fake news, and that allowing massive pollution was good for his rich buddies. Increasing the military budget at the expense of social services does work with a key part of your assessment, but it is also conservative republican favorite. Broadcast television is no doubt lowering the average intelligence of Westerners by limiting their field of view. For the rest, social media seems to be a next generation manipulator that even provides it's own statical analysis. Zuckerberg gets billions and "didn't know about the Russians on Facebook". Really? Frank Zappa saw this coming forty years ago -" I'm the slime oozing out from your tv set".
I am curious, What is the range of opinion on Trump in the UK? The gamut from the tabloids to Sky / BBC news, to the back benchers, They must think he's a boob, right?
You give Trump too much credit. The only draining he's doing is huge staff turnover. He's like an angry, bratty, obnoxious, spoiled kid that keeps breaking his toys and wanting new ones. "Fire that guy, oh yeah, Fire that guy too". There were 15 indictments and 5 with felony convictions that included a general with a high level bio. Good draining there, except he was Trumps buddy. Trump did do some other downsizing. He decimated the EPA by convincing his followers that global warming is a hoax, fake news, and that allowing massive pollution was good for his rich buddies. Increasing the military budget at the expense of social services does work with a key part of your assessment, but it is also conservative republican favorite. Broadcast television is no doubt lowering the average intelligence of Westerners by limiting their field of view. For the rest, social media seems to be a next generation manipulator that even provides it's own statical analysis. Zuckerberg gets billions and "didn't know about the Russians on Facebook". Really? Frank Zappa saw this coming forty years ago -" I'm the slime oozing out from your tv set".
I am curious, What is the range of opinion on Trump in the UK? The gamut from the tabloids to Sky / BBC news, to the back benchers, They must think he's a boob, right?
brown_thumb
Active member
GN, you're too enlightened and well-voiced for your own good.
speaking of which, trump's text's are something to be held in wonder.
original Tweet Jan. 10, 2012
He's fired or have had quit over 30 cabinet/staff members.
ONLY the best people huh donny boy? only the best.......
Not draining swamp right? All these are just coincidence right?
Bob Corker - Republican
Jeff Flake - Republican
Orrin Hatch - Republican
No Name - Republican [Departure Soon]
[House]
Bill Shuster - Republican
Bob Goodlatte - Republican
Carol Shea-Porter - Democrat
Charles W. Dent - Republican
Darrell Issa - Republican
Dave Reichert - Republican
David Trott - Republican
Dennis Ross - Republican
Edward Royce - Republican
Elizabeth Esty - Democrat
Frank LoBiondo - Republican
Gene Green - Democrat
Gregg Harper - Republican
Ileana Ros-Lehtinen - Republican
Jeb Hensarling - Republican
Jim Bridenstine - Republican
Joe Barton - Republican
John Delaney - Democrat
John J. Duncan, Jr. - Republican
Lamar Smith - Republican
Luis V. Gutierrez - Democrat
Lynn Jenkins - Republican
Niki Tsongas - Democrat
Paul Ryan - Republican
Rick Nolan - Democrat
Robert Brady - Democrat
Rodney Frelinghuysen - Republican
Ruben J. Kihuen - Democrat
Ryan Costello - Republican
Sam Johnson - Republican
Sandy Levin - Democrat
Ted Poe - Republican
Thomas Rooney - Republican
Trey Gowdy - Republican
[Resigned]
Al Franken - Democratic U.S. Senate
Blake Farenthold - Republican U.S. House
Jason Chaffetz - Republican U.S. House
John Conyers, Jr. - Democrat U.S. House
Louise Slaughter - Democrat U.S. House
Patrick Meehan - Republican U.S. House
Patrick J. Tiberi - Republican U.S. House
Thad Cochran - Republican U.S. Senate
Tim Murphy - Republican U.S. House
Trent Franks - Republican U.S. House
Xavier Becerra - Democrat Attorney General of California
All resignations or not seeking re-election, but nothing to see here
Bob Corker - Republican
Jeff Flake - Republican
Orrin Hatch - Republican
No Name - Republican [Departure Soon]
[House]
Bill Shuster - Republican
Bob Goodlatte - Republican
Carol Shea-Porter - Democrat
Charles W. Dent - Republican
Darrell Issa - Republican
Dave Reichert - Republican
David Trott - Republican
Dennis Ross - Republican
Edward Royce - Republican
Elizabeth Esty - Democrat
Frank LoBiondo - Republican
Gene Green - Democrat
Gregg Harper - Republican
Ileana Ros-Lehtinen - Republican
Jeb Hensarling - Republican
Jim Bridenstine - Republican
Joe Barton - Republican
John Delaney - Democrat
John J. Duncan, Jr. - Republican
Lamar Smith - Republican
Luis V. Gutierrez - Democrat
Lynn Jenkins - Republican
Niki Tsongas - Democrat
Paul Ryan - Republican
Rick Nolan - Democrat
Robert Brady - Democrat
Rodney Frelinghuysen - Republican
Ruben J. Kihuen - Democrat
Ryan Costello - Republican
Sam Johnson - Republican
Sandy Levin - Democrat
Ted Poe - Republican
Thomas Rooney - Republican
Trey Gowdy - Republican
[Resigned]
Al Franken - Democratic U.S. Senate
Blake Farenthold - Republican U.S. House
Jason Chaffetz - Republican U.S. House
John Conyers, Jr. - Democrat U.S. House
Louise Slaughter - Democrat U.S. House
Patrick Meehan - Republican U.S. House
Patrick J. Tiberi - Republican U.S. House
Thad Cochran - Republican U.S. Senate
Tim Murphy - Republican U.S. House
Trent Franks - Republican U.S. House
Xavier Becerra - Democrat Attorney General of California
All resignations or not seeking re-election, but nothing to see here
R
Rubber Chicken
M
moose eater
fishy, looking at the list of names you posted, I can see right off that there's a whole lot of reasons for their departures beside Trump's straightening out corruption and life-time political seats.
Some left as a result of their own scandals, with zero influence from Trump. In some of those cases, Dems asked their own to step down. (Al Franken, as one example, wherein Trump's alleged sexual misconducts were more severe than Franken's poorly orchestrated sexist humor).
Others have seen that the amount of revenue is shrinking across the Country, and both sides of the aisle have (wrongly, in my opinion) believed that the way to get re-elected is to bring home pork projects. When the cash is shrinking, there's less reason to stay and bring your own state's pork to issue.
Some have reached a point in their lives re. family and other things taking precedent.
Some have stated that they've grown weary of the contentiousness.
There's many reasons for the list of names posted above leaving their positions, that have nothing to do with Trump cleaning anything up..
Meanwhile, Trump has appointed many persons who were part of the problems that we agree on. In that regard, the perpetuation of Oligarchy & the Military Industrial Complex is no different today than it was yesterday, other than there may be a few different hands getting filled in place of others, or alongside others. And we're still buying sub-standard equipment at a huge mark-up via DoD contracts, and we're still paying thousands of percentage points in increases in cost to the tax payers in basic equipment via those DoD contracts.
Some left as a result of their own scandals, with zero influence from Trump. In some of those cases, Dems asked their own to step down. (Al Franken, as one example, wherein Trump's alleged sexual misconducts were more severe than Franken's poorly orchestrated sexist humor).
Others have seen that the amount of revenue is shrinking across the Country, and both sides of the aisle have (wrongly, in my opinion) believed that the way to get re-elected is to bring home pork projects. When the cash is shrinking, there's less reason to stay and bring your own state's pork to issue.
Some have reached a point in their lives re. family and other things taking precedent.
Some have stated that they've grown weary of the contentiousness.
There's many reasons for the list of names posted above leaving their positions, that have nothing to do with Trump cleaning anything up..
Meanwhile, Trump has appointed many persons who were part of the problems that we agree on. In that regard, the perpetuation of Oligarchy & the Military Industrial Complex is no different today than it was yesterday, other than there may be a few different hands getting filled in place of others, or alongside others. And we're still buying sub-standard equipment at a huge mark-up via DoD contracts, and we're still paying thousands of percentage points in increases in cost to the tax payers in basic equipment via those DoD contracts.
several of those names on the list are folks that could no longer stomach being linked to the most corrupt president to ever hold office. i never thought i would say that after seeing Nixon in action, but asshole Trumpet makes Tricky Dick look like a fucking saint by comparison...
Hermen_eutics
Member
Not draining swamp right? All these are just coincidence right?
All resignations or not seeking re-election, but nothing to see here
The trump administration has been a writhing pile of greedy snakes and incompetent parasites. Starting with TRUMPS fraud settlement, flynns criminality, scaramucci lol, the trump organization is a swamp critter magnet, Cohen, Pruitt, Porter, Carson, de vos, Perry, half of his associates are under suspicion, his whole business history is a swamp tale
M
moose eater
I believe that positions of power attract the folks least suited to them. At the bare minimum the jobs attract decent people who are often corrupted by the power. At the worst, they attract persons who are already narcissists and ego-driven, or even, in some cases, sociopaths..
I'm not exaggerating or making that up. People on both sides of the aisle who can look the camera in the lens, and tell America what ever they think will get them elected; often dancing for the poll numbers, and little more. The most honest ones admit it.
To confound that, America has shifted more and more toward folks who either talk, or do, abrupt action. War on 'this', 'war on that,' Task force for this, task force for that. The sheep want an alpha wolf, as often as not; tough on crime, tough on the middle-east, tough on, tough on, tough on. Even if that wolf might eat them.
Following Nixon & Reagan, for many years the Ds and Rs seemingly competed to see who could pass the most Draconian drug bill; the Rs strutting their stuff re. keeping America safe from us hippies & the scourge of the boogey man, drugs, and the mainstream Ds, lacking much spinal fortitude for those years, were apparently terrified of being called "soft on crime" during an election year. So they would use US as the prop, to show America just how tough they really were on crime.
There's always got to be some poor bastard to push into the volcano to show the audience how committed the tribe's medicine men and leaders are. "Sorry 'bout that, but it's for the greater good... And if we get to cleanse the earth of some peace folks in the process, to permit the wages of war to march onward, then that's cool too, so, so be it..."
We weren't winning on pot because it was -their- idea, we're winning because it was OUR idea, and we didn't go away. Then we strategized on how we could get the most number of them on-board with excellent angles for campaign themes, further solidifying their shtick on the campaign trail, often helping to gather even greater number of supporters...
Never mind that we were inviting our own unintended consequences at the same time.
And for those still pushing for other issues involving social justice, the excessive/cruel treatment by the (In)Justice System kept right on a'rolling too. We now have journalists writing for blogs and fringe press being charged with terrorism, rioting, and more.
Louisiana just passed a State law making it a 20-year felony to be involved in organizing, consulting, or taking part in any way, in demonstrations at, or too near, any resource determined to be 'infrastructure.' Highway? Power plant? Dam?
So these freedom fighters who protect our rights, just drove another stake through the heart of the already wounded 1st amendment. There has to be control and order you know. Just ask the guys with the badges. They'll tell you.
I'm glad pot is getting legalized some place, some how, some time. I've personally witnessed families torn apart over anything from a 1/2 gram of crank, to a partial gram of coke, to some cannabis plants, to having some plants out in the corn field and happening to also have a .22 rifle as farmers, for ridding vermin, to.... the list goes on.
Class III weapons put to the heads of kids as young as 8 & 10 yrs. old by U.S. Marshalls and DEA, and their various cohorts. Mom & Dad in prison, kids at least temporarily in foster care, life's savings gone, vehicles gone, house gone, etc., etc..
But the only people who are going to bring change to the Oligarchy, the drug laws, or anything else in this Country, is US. The People. The same folks who have always gotten out in front of our frozen-in-poll-dependent-time 'leaders,' and pointed the way for them to see.
Even the 'good guys' required circumstances that would move them toward where they belonged in the first place.
So I personally don't think we owe too many of these folks much of anything in the way of an apology or gratitude for finally starting to remove their boots from our throats.
Their jobs were to help, assist, and to represent us and our interests all along. It's a damned shame so much effort and life has had to be poured into causing them to do that.
I'm not exaggerating or making that up. People on both sides of the aisle who can look the camera in the lens, and tell America what ever they think will get them elected; often dancing for the poll numbers, and little more. The most honest ones admit it.
To confound that, America has shifted more and more toward folks who either talk, or do, abrupt action. War on 'this', 'war on that,' Task force for this, task force for that. The sheep want an alpha wolf, as often as not; tough on crime, tough on the middle-east, tough on, tough on, tough on. Even if that wolf might eat them.
Following Nixon & Reagan, for many years the Ds and Rs seemingly competed to see who could pass the most Draconian drug bill; the Rs strutting their stuff re. keeping America safe from us hippies & the scourge of the boogey man, drugs, and the mainstream Ds, lacking much spinal fortitude for those years, were apparently terrified of being called "soft on crime" during an election year. So they would use US as the prop, to show America just how tough they really were on crime.
There's always got to be some poor bastard to push into the volcano to show the audience how committed the tribe's medicine men and leaders are. "Sorry 'bout that, but it's for the greater good... And if we get to cleanse the earth of some peace folks in the process, to permit the wages of war to march onward, then that's cool too, so, so be it..."
We weren't winning on pot because it was -their- idea, we're winning because it was OUR idea, and we didn't go away. Then we strategized on how we could get the most number of them on-board with excellent angles for campaign themes, further solidifying their shtick on the campaign trail, often helping to gather even greater number of supporters...
Never mind that we were inviting our own unintended consequences at the same time.
And for those still pushing for other issues involving social justice, the excessive/cruel treatment by the (In)Justice System kept right on a'rolling too. We now have journalists writing for blogs and fringe press being charged with terrorism, rioting, and more.
Louisiana just passed a State law making it a 20-year felony to be involved in organizing, consulting, or taking part in any way, in demonstrations at, or too near, any resource determined to be 'infrastructure.' Highway? Power plant? Dam?
So these freedom fighters who protect our rights, just drove another stake through the heart of the already wounded 1st amendment. There has to be control and order you know. Just ask the guys with the badges. They'll tell you.
I'm glad pot is getting legalized some place, some how, some time. I've personally witnessed families torn apart over anything from a 1/2 gram of crank, to a partial gram of coke, to some cannabis plants, to having some plants out in the corn field and happening to also have a .22 rifle as farmers, for ridding vermin, to.... the list goes on.
Class III weapons put to the heads of kids as young as 8 & 10 yrs. old by U.S. Marshalls and DEA, and their various cohorts. Mom & Dad in prison, kids at least temporarily in foster care, life's savings gone, vehicles gone, house gone, etc., etc..
But the only people who are going to bring change to the Oligarchy, the drug laws, or anything else in this Country, is US. The People. The same folks who have always gotten out in front of our frozen-in-poll-dependent-time 'leaders,' and pointed the way for them to see.
Even the 'good guys' required circumstances that would move them toward where they belonged in the first place.
So I personally don't think we owe too many of these folks much of anything in the way of an apology or gratitude for finally starting to remove their boots from our throats.
Their jobs were to help, assist, and to represent us and our interests all along. It's a damned shame so much effort and life has had to be poured into causing them to do that.
Wow! man.....there is some very beautiful. emotive and starkly honest text right there. In fact thru it all I was entranced and could not have said it better myself.
But it does conjure up the question that IF we the people have the power to change things if WE feel that things are not going the right way....so then where do we start?
How do we chip away at what we perceive as to be the precipice of destruction.....to form a staircase to salvation?
salvation
salˈveɪʃ(ə)n/
noun
noun: salvation
1.
preservation or deliverance from harm, ruin, or loss.
But it does conjure up the question that IF we the people have the power to change things if WE feel that things are not going the right way....so then where do we start?
How do we chip away at what we perceive as to be the precipice of destruction.....to form a staircase to salvation?
salvation
salˈveɪʃ(ə)n/
noun
noun: salvation
1.
preservation or deliverance from harm, ruin, or loss.
If you want to believe Trump first you need to decide which of his statements you wish to believe, as most know he makes statements on both sides of most issues from "making America Great Again" to "draining the swamp" his actions are often contrary to his statements.
I have zero belief that Trump will allow Cannabis to be legalized on the Federal Level, and his supporters who act like he has already legalized Cannabis by handing it over to the states to regulate, need to step back and admit it has not happened yet, not even close.
While I hope Trump does help legalize Cannabis, I have my doubts as it has little benefits for him directly and will upset many of his core supporters who do not care about states rights unless it helps issues they support.
Time will tell. anything is possible, it was anti-commie NIXON that opened relations with China, an action that was made easier by his anti-commie rhetoric for decades.
I often suspected it would be easier for a Republican to legalize Cannabis then a Democrat, who could be accused of being soft on drugs...
One thing is for sure, one way or another Cannabis will be soon legal for all those that choose to use it, and I expect that to expand until the whole world has similar laws that do allow Cannabis use.
You can fool some of the people all the time,
Some of the people all the time,
But you can't fool all the people all the time.....
-SamS
I have zero belief that Trump will allow Cannabis to be legalized on the Federal Level, and his supporters who act like he has already legalized Cannabis by handing it over to the states to regulate, need to step back and admit it has not happened yet, not even close.
While I hope Trump does help legalize Cannabis, I have my doubts as it has little benefits for him directly and will upset many of his core supporters who do not care about states rights unless it helps issues they support.
Time will tell. anything is possible, it was anti-commie NIXON that opened relations with China, an action that was made easier by his anti-commie rhetoric for decades.
I often suspected it would be easier for a Republican to legalize Cannabis then a Democrat, who could be accused of being soft on drugs...
One thing is for sure, one way or another Cannabis will be soon legal for all those that choose to use it, and I expect that to expand until the whole world has similar laws that do allow Cannabis use.
You can fool some of the people all the time,
Some of the people all the time,
But you can't fool all the people all the time.....
-SamS
M
moose eater
I think the answer is what it's always been. When we're willing to risk everything we have in order to make something better, and when we target the right pressure point to make things roll, then the changes will come.
Knowing what your opponent's weaknesses and concerns are. The ruling class/Oligarchy understands or feels 2 things, in my opinion; their own blood and their own money. They're willing to gamble with someone else's blood or money all doo-dah-day, but not their own.
So the equation is how to gather enough self-disciplined and motivated people to impact that group in such a way that they feel it to a degree where they admit it's in -everyone's- interest to bring what ever the required change is.
There are literally economic formulas for this stuff. It's been shown that a concerted 3% impact on any given market can send it stumbling. So we don't even have to have the entirety of the population depriving themselves; just enough to put a kink in the works.
But we'll have to get past our immediate gratification, personal wants and desires, etc., to achieve such a thing, because such actions typically involve incarceration, and even brutality and death.
So how bad are these problems we bitch about? Are they bad enough to risk those things? And can we get past the quibbling about whether my neighbor was born a man or a woman, or who they choose to sleep with (providing it's an adult), or which restroom they should use, or whether playing billiards or poker is sinful, in order to tackle the real issues that affect today and tomorrow?
As a former radio talk host I knew once said, "I've always been more obsessed with who -I- was going to fuck than who someone else was."
I'm fairly cynical. I believe it will happen eventually, as history says there's never been a government that didn't eventually crumble, often for its own excesses.
But I'm no longer holding my breath that it will occur in my life time. So I (now-a-days) think locally and act locally... Like, in my own front yard, having largely quit politics for the reasons exemplified in this thread.
Knowing what your opponent's weaknesses and concerns are. The ruling class/Oligarchy understands or feels 2 things, in my opinion; their own blood and their own money. They're willing to gamble with someone else's blood or money all doo-dah-day, but not their own.
So the equation is how to gather enough self-disciplined and motivated people to impact that group in such a way that they feel it to a degree where they admit it's in -everyone's- interest to bring what ever the required change is.
There are literally economic formulas for this stuff. It's been shown that a concerted 3% impact on any given market can send it stumbling. So we don't even have to have the entirety of the population depriving themselves; just enough to put a kink in the works.
But we'll have to get past our immediate gratification, personal wants and desires, etc., to achieve such a thing, because such actions typically involve incarceration, and even brutality and death.
So how bad are these problems we bitch about? Are they bad enough to risk those things? And can we get past the quibbling about whether my neighbor was born a man or a woman, or who they choose to sleep with (providing it's an adult), or which restroom they should use, or whether playing billiards or poker is sinful, in order to tackle the real issues that affect today and tomorrow?
As a former radio talk host I knew once said, "I've always been more obsessed with who -I- was going to fuck than who someone else was."
I'm fairly cynical. I believe it will happen eventually, as history says there's never been a government that didn't eventually crumble, often for its own excesses.
But I'm no longer holding my breath that it will occur in my life time. So I (now-a-days) think locally and act locally... Like, in my own front yard, having largely quit politics for the reasons exemplified in this thread.
