Time Doesn't Exist

[ibjamming]

I don't think the presence of natural laws proves a lack of free will. Natural laws aren't like God, in that they impose on us rules of behavior from without. Nor are the things themselves reducible to merely the laws. The laws are our laws, stated in various languages, including mathematics, as predictive tools. In any given moment, with any given object of study, and with any given predictive formula, science assumes absolute knowledge of the object and its conditions. It does this because its necessary, and it produces very useful results from which we abstract and form various laws. But science never has absolute knowledge in any given context, it knows this, but doesn't consider it a fault but rather a necessity.

In this necessity of subjectivity, of human knowledge, lies freedom. Quantum mechanics recognizes this better now, as it gives more importance to the role of the observer in the predictive laws that result.

The analogy of humans to a computer doesn't really work, because the computer is a physical replication of the laws which were originally predictive abstractions from non-abstract things. I don't hear many scientists, and much less philosophers, arguing that natural laws prove absolute determinism, but rather the very fact that there are laws and that these laws are abstract and predictive in nature proves freedom.

I liked that...and it's so true...our "facts" are nothing more than the latest "best guess". More people need to realize this. Tomorrows "facts" will blow away yesterdays "facts".

Many people say the natural laws ARE God...because without them all being just right...we probably wouldn't be here. Supposedly some things a little lighter, a little heavier, too strong, not strong enough...and we probably wouldn't be here.

There IS evidence to lead down the path of "Intelligent Design"...who could deny it's POSSIBILITY. But it's hardly probable and for it to be "The God of Abraham"...or any other human God story...is HIGHLY unlikely.

The best answer though is...we're REALLY lucky everything worked out like it did.

@GMT I never said that you were arguing this point, I was merely reminded of the argument and was clarifying to anyone out there trying to use this to champion free will that it is a fallacy. Also, regardless of what my beliefs are, my brain (and everyone elses') convinces us that we have the ability to make decisions - this is fundamental and unavoidable. This is why the conclusion that there is no free will is somewhat meaningless in all practicality. Also it is impossible to not be a fatalist if you champion a 4 dimensionalist view of time.

@ibjamming: Just because we second guess and are subject to hormones doesn't mean we make decisions. These processes are governed by physical matter (neurotransmitters) that kick into action after a stimuli is received. For example, our eyes receive input data in the form of light. We see the weed sitting on the table. The signal is then travels through sensory neurons to the brain and the brain takes this information and does an analysis based on our genetics and past experience. It then churns out an appropriate response. This isn't governed by a mystical essence of "you" - it is merely the playing out of neurochemistry.

@sac beh: I never said that scientists use the presence of natural laws to prove determinism. It is just an introductory argument to get people thinking. If one is not a dualist, than what we are is purely physical. THere is no spirit. If you hold the no-spirit view than you also believe that the brain is what constitutes the mind. The brain is physical and we as agents don't have control over physical matter/laws. I don't see how a law would imply freedom in any sense of the word; it implies the exact opposite. Laws are rigid, that is why they are laws. Quantum mechanics, i.e. wheeler's delayed choice and the double slit experiment, does not prove that observers have free will (I am not saying this is what you are arguing) it just says that in order for there to be a reality, there must be an observer. Until particles are observed, they exist in a super-state of many potential outcomes.

You're assuming that everyone's brain is wired the same and responds the same. I can see your point...and I agree, we're nothing more than electrical and chemical connections...but I think the outcome is more random...like a pachinko machine. You can put the ball in the same place but the outcome isn't fixed. I think the randomness...maybe caused by quantum effects...play a role. That's the second guessing part...the going over many scenarios and choosing the "best", which changes all the time. Besides, two people don't make the same decision given the same circumstances.

I was just sitting here replying and remembered a virus or a parasite that changes the behavior of a snail...it MAKES the snail do something that ONLY infected snails do...which results in the snails own death. It seems to "reprogram" the snail causing it to behave abnormally. I think it climbs up and out into the open for a bird to eat it...when most snails stay hidden...something like that.

You MAY be onto something... Maybe we ARE being controlled...maybe our programming IS already set? Maybe viruses/parasites affect human behavior too? Other animals?

The world is pretty amazing...full of wonders and questions.

 

[BrainSellz]

This might be weird actually eye am sure it iz' maybe
math and physics should have put time somewhere in tha beginning of tha dimensions so it gave a time in space for tha first cordinance to be drawn' and give tha 4th dimension to reasoning' it seems that after tha 3rd dimension its all mental anyway'
1st dimension Space
2nd dimension Time
3rd dimension Alive
4th dimension Reason
5th dimension Understanding
6th dimension Sense
7th dimension Equality
8th dimension Eternity
9th dimension One
10th dimension Now

Just a thought

 

[Mezz Mezzrow]

I remember a documentary many years ago that discussed different dimensions, like the 4th dimension.

It used the example of a man called the 2d man. He only had two dimensions and therefor could not see the 3rd. What that pointed out was that a three dimensional man would only see three dimensions and not be aware of the fourth.

If the fourth dimension is time it would explain why we only experience time as a cross section. That cross section is the Now. To experience time travel maybe we have to learn the ropes of 4D consciousness.

 

[Mudita]

This might be weird actually eye am sure it iz' maybe
math and physics should have put time somewhere in tha beginning of tha dimensions so it gave a time in space for tha first cordinance to be drawn' and give tha 4th dimension to reasoning' it seems that after tha 3rd dimension its all mental anyway'
1st dimension Space
2nd dimension Time
3rd dimension Alive
4th dimension Reason
5th dimension Understanding
6th dimension Sense
7th dimension Equality
8th dimension Eternity
9th dimension One
10th dimension Now

Just a thought

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UfhOBevrN2U

 

[kaze420]

but, really, lol

[FONT=&quot]I can see why some think reality is an illusion of sort. A space/time that the observer can really interact with. It all seems to make to much sense, in the sense that you literally, sense reality. This leads to idea that there is a potential purpose that exists outside of reality that governs the laws of reality in the universe. The meshing of everything in existence gives the observer a sense of oneness with the universe, because, as a whole, existence is that ONE flip that lands on potential, rather then non-existent potential(absolute nothingness).


[/FONT]

 

[kaze420]

i get the impression that this universe always existed, it just wasn't conscious of it's own reality until it evolved a consciousness. The human consciousness is the most important we know, because, it's our own. An observer is born into reality with an individual consciousness. We assume that when an individual consciousness dies, that because they became conscious of reality, they can never become unconscious of it. Freewill is relative to the observer. They can think they have freewill of not. 'Nothing' can be proven to exist outside reality of the universe.

[FONT=&quot]Ok, well, I assume that since existence evolved a consciousness, and that consciousness is within every born individual observer, that because the universe is now conscious of itself, there is nothing beyond reality. because once you become conscious of reality, you are now conscious you exist.[/FONT]

 

[kaze420]

[FONT=&quot]MY explanation to existence is simple, we exist because the universe exists. The universe exists because it just does. The potential of the observers reality is reviled through an observers applied ideas to reality, the ideas that work pass on through generations, as well as the ideas that don't work, not to an absolute truth, because frankly the only 'absolute' truth is that existence exists, instead of nothing existing.

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Something expanded from 'absolute nothingness' to create a space/time reality. The expansion was caused by a reaction. The reaction was because, 'absolute nothingness' can't exist. There is always potential for something to exist, like the universe. This is proven true by our existence.
[/FONT]

 

[kaze420]

again, infinity is a human created idea. we can not fully comprehend what infinity is, nor can we fully
comprehend what nothingness is.

we can only reason on what is. it really goes no farther then that.
we can theorize on infinity because we know that pi is a never ending sequence.. but can we prove it? no, are life spans are limited.

[FONT=&quot]How can you get something, from 'absolute nothingness'? We have to assume that something can come from 'absolute nothingness'. This is explained by our existence.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
'Absolute nothingness' is only an idea. It is the fact that 'absolute nothingness' can never exist, that something exists.

[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]

 

[kaze420]

[FONT=&quot]life is nothing more then potential for progression. you want something to change, then create ideas and apply them to reality. the purpose is what you make of it. maybe your in poverty so your current purpose is to intake energy. maybe you have a test due so your current purpose is to study.


[/FONT] the universe is relevant to the observer in the sense that the observer can manipulate the universe to their advantage through applied ideas. although with many separate observers it is probable that when you manipulate something, even without the intention, it can possibly effect another observer.

[FONT=&quot]life is not about trying to become one with the universe or find the light, it is about trying to evolve with it. spiritual thinking is not going to advance humanity or unlock an awakening within.

[/FONT]because, how else does something come about from nothing? the only explanation is there is always potential for existence.
50/50 flip, eventually you will get something, this is proven because we exist.

its the forces of nature which govern evolution in the universe, its up to the observer to understand them correctly(science). not for nature to understand itself, because obviously it can or it wouldn't exist

 

[kaze420]

booooooooooop

God is just an observer created idea, it can't be proven fact in reality, therefore it is ALWAYS irrelevant in reality, it can only be contemplated.

If you came into existence earlier in reality, say as a farmer, wouldn't you pray for rain to support your crops. Now, we have the ability to manipulate water to fit our needs. Look to the heavens, water comes down from above to fuel us! praise the existence of the universe! praise the existence of water!

bible- there will be end times, an 'apocalypse of sort you could say', an end to all existence..

logic- there will be end times, when humanity destroys itself or it's environment (or maybe we discover a way to exist outside of earth) and human consciousness can no longer exist within reality because, the earth environment is the only place known to support the existence of conscious reasoning life forms.
__________________

 

[Brastaman]

yeah. i've always thought of perceptions as being interpretations of our senses and influenced or 'processed' by our minds; a place where logic and reasoning like to play.

Was it Bacon that referred to the Idols of the Mind?

I'll accept that there are exceptions to that rule. For example our perceptions of our perceptions, our perceptions of mathematical proofs, deductive logic and perhaps a couple more, but in general terms our senses lie to us. Since its through our senses and experineces that we gain our percetions, most of what we percieve is missing some information and misrepresenting that which we percieve, therefore we are prevented from knowing the thing itself completely and accurately. Colour is a pet favourite of mine, as when we percieve a red object, the object is absorbing the colours other than red, and rejecting that wavelength of light, which is why we can see that wavelength, therefore is the object red or every colour but red? It's a tricky area, and to rely upon our perceptions alone, is to ignore the underlying reality of the object. Which locke would argue we can never know, but then we're getting into much deeper water when entering that discussion.

 

[kaze420]

more re:

competing realities? are you saying an individuals consciousness is not part of the same reality as another individuals consciousness? im talking about human consciousness not alligator consciousness. im talking about consciousness in reality, not that reality is conscious of itself, which it is because, as observers we can see reality is real.

^idols of mind, good read, appreciated

 

[Brastaman]

Time also doesn't exist the way we think of it in the sense that the past is gone, now it's just all in your head, and the future never existed, it's also all in your head.

Also, there is a small delay between us experiencing a sensory stimuli and our brains processing it. Meaning if I look at a plant, and I say "the color RIGHT NOW is green" I would be somewhat wrong. The light has to reflect off the plant and into my retinal, and then kick off a chain of chemical processes that eventually lead to me "seeing" that the plant is green. Between the time the light reflected off the plant and the realization that it is green, it could have changed colors.

So "right now" is of course relative. It covers a range of time that may be different in context.

This reminded me of this:
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?p=3862359

Hey DiiZZi3,

i think this post pretty much sums up your concerns with time.

 

[mean mr.mustard]

Neither does my Ben and Jerry's....

 

[kaze420]

no, im not angry, im just expressing my view of reality. this belief in a 'god' or 'all' is contemplated, i might be sure, by all observers. But when you just accept reality and accept that reality is conscious it exists, that reality will never be unconscious it exists.. walah, there is your 'eternal life' or 'truth' that, REALITY KNOWS IT EXISTS BECAUSE IT CAN OBSERVE ITSELF EXISTING. there is no proof that something exists outside reality. reality encompasses existence.

 

[MarquisBlack]

Neither does my Ben and Jerry's....

What a clever metaphor..

 

[kaze420]

do i win absolute truth?

reality encompasses existence.
existence encompasses reality.

 

[TNTBudSticker]

Want a different place and a difference time ?

Take a hit and relax and enjoy the video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hglVqACd1C8&NR=1&feature=fvwp

Tool - Sober [hq - fullscreen]

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

Using superprecise atomic clocks, scientists have witnessed time dilation — the bizarre speeding up or slowing down of time described by Einstein’s theories of relativity. The experiments are presented in the Sept. 24 Science.

“Modern technology has gotten so precise you can see these exotic effects in the range of your living room,” says physicist Clifford Will of Washington University in St. Louis. The experiments don’t reveal any new physics, Will says, but “what makes it cute and pretty cool is they have done it on a tabletop.”

Time dilation arises in two situations. In one case, time appears to move slower the closer you are to a massive object, such as the Earth. So a person hovering in a hot-air balloon, for example, actually ages faster than someone standing below.

Time also ticks by faster for someone at rest relative to someone moving. Einstein dramatized this second strangeness with the twin paradox — one 25-year-old twin traveling in a rocket ship near the speed of light for what he perceives as a few months will return to Earth to find the other has reached middle age.

Previous experiments with rockets and airplanes have demonstrated these odd aspects of general and special relativity. The notion of time running slower closer to Earth was even tested on the scale of a multistory physics building at Harvard.

Now advances in laser technology and the field of quantum information science have allowed researchers to demonstrate Einstein’s theories at much more ordinary scales.

The researchers used two optical atomic clocks sitting atop steel tables in neighboring labs at the National Institute of Standards and Technology in Boulder, Colo. Each clock has an electrically charged aluminum atom, or ion, that vibrates between two energy levels more than a million billion times per second. A 75-meter-long optical cable connects the clocks, which allows the team to compare the instruments’ timekeeping.

In the first experiment, physicist James Chin-wen Chou and his colleagues at NIST used a hydraulic jack to raise one of the tables 33 centimeters, or about a foot. Sure enough, the lower clock ran slower than the elevated one — at the rate of a 90-billionth of a second in 79 years. In a second experiment the team applied an electric field to one clock, sending the aluminum ion moving back and forth. As predicted, the moving clock ran slower than the clock that was at rest.

“It’s pretty breathtaking precision,” says physicist Daniel Kleppner of MIT. Of course scientists are well aware of these relativistic effects, he notes. The clocks on GPS devices are also affected by relativity, and appropriate adjustments are made to keep them working properly.

The experiments have more implications for precision instrumentation than they do for relativity, notes Chou. But they are a nice reminder that relativity is always at hand. “People tend to just ignore relativistic effects, but relativistic effects are everywhere,” he says. “Every day, people are moving; they are doing things like climbing stairs. It’s interesting to think about — are frequent flyers getting younger [because they move so much] or aging faster [because they spend so much time in the air]?”



Read More http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2010/09/ordinary-relativity/#ixzz10TZdaIu0

 

[Justin_Credible]

oh yeah? well imagine showing up @ your doctors office w/o an appointment dude, you'll find out what time is all about or are you gonna try to tell me you wouldn't wonder even once, "how fucking long have I been waiting......."

OH gods! I love getting stoned and coming into this toker's den. Oh man, almost better then HBO.