The traitor within?

[bigtacofarmer]

Anarchism is more the idea of self governing and trying to consider who your choices effect.

 

[Cannavore]

yep definitely no anarchist countries have ever existed at least that i know of. just a load of political theory and movements.

i'm no expert on anarchism but the leftist/collectivist version of it is kind of like the final aims of communism (no state/govt, no class system, and i'm not sure where anarchists lie on private property but assume they are against it) but with a voluntary system of self governance. but i assume there has to be more differences otherwise why have leftist anarchism AND communism? seems redundant lol.

 

[igrowone]

i've done some reading on the anarchists of old, the beginnings back in the later 1800's
the anarchists were the 1st, they had a vision of spontaneous revolution without leaders
this of course never happened, organized revolution was the antithesis of what anarchism was about
from the anarchists came communism, the communists school of thought was of course you had to organize the revolution
how would it happen otherwise? but their end goals were quite similar
the notion of the state withering away as it was no longer needed

 

[Brother Nature]

It's an oxymoron to be an anarchist country. By definition an anarchist country would be a country without a centralized government and according to the Montevideo convention to be recognized as a country you need a central government. There are however, many many anarchist based communities. Spain has a long history of Anarchy.



To be a true anarchist, in the original sense of the word, you have to believe that government is not only unnecessary but harmful to mankind. Combining this with socialized ideals defeats the purpose of believing in anarchy so aligning anarchy with any political ideals negates the original philosophy.

 

[packerfan79]

I think this is the old way of seeing it. But it's really not the case, or at least any more. The GOP is just as much of a big govt party as the Democrats.

I may support things such as universal health care but I also want to see our military drastically cut, and abolish agencies such as the NSA and ICE just for a quick example. I don't want the government involved in people's sex lives or their reproductive rights, ect but I do think there needs to not only be a social safety net, but strong consumer and environmental protections as well.

Nuance is the key here. Being for blanket small government or blanket big govt in all aspects is just intellectually lazy in my opinion.

We will be a 3rd world country in 3 days if you abolish ICE. We will be overrun in days. Our environment and freedoms will be utterly destroyed. I have pie in the sky thoughts of ultimate freedom, but it's not realistic. To many psychotic people who will not hesitate to murder damn near anyone.

 

[igrowone]

It's an oxymoron to be an anarchist country. By definition an anarchist country would be a country without a centralized government and according to the Montevideo convention to be recognized as a country you need a central government. There are however, many many anarchist based communities. Spain has a long history of Anarchy.



To be a true anarchist, in the original sense of the word, you have to believe that government is not only unnecessary but harmful to mankind. Combining this with socialized ideals defeats the purpose of believing in anarchy so aligning anarchy with any political ideals negates the original philosophy.

just so, enclaves of anarchy can exist in principle
but is it real? what happens in those communities when there's robbery, rape, murder?
the government of the containing country springs into action, and crimes are dealt with in the traditional ways
so are they anarchists or just shirkers that have others do the dirty business of governance?
i see anarchy as a high minded notion, not a tangible notion for the real world

 

[packerfan79]

I am really trying hard to look at the opinions of you guys who lean left. Then you start with the communist and Anarchist talk. I don't get it.

Do you really think this world is free of people who are evil?

The only way communism or Anarchism works is if their is no greed, or lust for power, or any other evil in this world. None. Leftist call Republicans evil and murderous. If you truly believe that,
Is it a good idea to cut them lose of all law restraining them?

People forget perfectly normal germans were able to gas 6 million Jews. These weren't murders and rapist sickos, before Hitler whipped up a frenzy, in the face of economic collapse post ww1. The were everyday folks. Some obviously were evil, but not most of them. They sure as fuck did some seriously evil shit, with no remorse.

How many murders happen each day worldwide?
Hundreds, maybe a few thousand. This is with extensive law enforcement and military keeping things civil(as civil as can be). With no Police, ICE, Military you could multiply that number by thousands.

What percentage of people are truly evil?

To simplify things call it 1%. With a world population of 7.44 billion , that's 74 million truly evil people. The majority of those evil people are kept in check by laws and law enforcement. With no law enforcement you can safely assume that those people will murder someone at least once a week. So a world wide murder rate of 318 million people per month. This is not something I would think anyone could want.at that rate half the worlds population would be dead in 1 year.

So even if I am off by a factor of 10, so .01% truly evil people. It would take 10 years to eliminate half the worlds population. This doesn't take into account the lack of food, who is going to farm when they are more worried about keeping their children from being murdered. No private property is a great way to create a famine that will kill/ starve millions. People get pretty angry when they are watching their children starve to death.

The Ukrainian genocide is a prime example. The Russians killed all the people who knew how to farm. These weren't massive corporate farms most were just a few acres. 6 million people starved to death, or were killed because they resisted the communist.

Is this something that any sane person could want. Do you want to be forced to kill many people?

 

[Brother Nature]

I highly agree with you there igrowone, as with most philosophies you have to give and take a little to make anything tangible in the real world. I would disagree in regards to the shirkers who let other governments do their bidding. I believe that in the examples you've given above, an anarchistic community isn't without consequence, but then that leads us back to the fact that people are always going to be beholden to one another within any community. How is that community going to decide on what the consequence is without coming to a group wide consensus? Does doing this qualify as governance? So I guess as an individual and internal philosophy anarchy could work, but application in a real world community setting, no.


Anyways, I'm getting way off topic so will mention that I think an internal 'check' system on the president completely undermines the principals of this system we hold so dear. I also believe it shows the fallacy of our modern system. While I dislike Trump, I dislike more those who don't have the backbone to stand up and say they believe something is wrong and are going to do something about it, it's not what the country was founded on. The ideas America was founded on were pretty amazing and revolutionary, but as we have a knack to do we've totally ruined that and look where we are now.

 

[Brother Nature]

Packerfan, I totally get what you're saying. I do believe though that humans are much more complex creatures than we can understand right now and it's not as simple as some people are good and some are bad. I believe that morality is a construct of man, what's good to one person may be bad or evil to another, but to make it even more complex people can convince themselves that what they're doing is good e.g. your example of Germany under Hitler. In many's eyes, what we do everyday (get stoned) is evil and bad and the only way to change that perception is through conversation which hopefully leads to empathy and understanding. I'd like to think that's what were trying to do in these threads as well.

 

[packerfan79]

Packerfan, I totally get what you're saying. I do believe though that humans are much more complex creatures than we can understand right now and it's not as simple as some people are good and some are bad. I believe that morality is a construct of man, what's good to one person may be bad or evil to another, but to make it even more complex people can convince themselves that what they're doing is good e.g. your example of Germany under Hitler. In many's eyes, what we do everyday (get stoned) is evil and bad and the only way to change that perception is through conversation which hopefully leads to empathy and understanding. I'd like to think that's what were trying to do in these threads as well.

When I say truly evil, I mean people like the Nightstalker, Manson, Dahmer, Hitler, Stalin, Mao. Some people are truly evil. I have seen more than a few people who have beaten their own children to death in my area recently. If you don't see that their is evil abounding in this world, you aren't paying attention.

People get so focused on what they think is a better way, they fail to account for the evil in the world.

Morality is not universal, I wish it was.

I will be the first to admit that I can get riled up about politics. I try to see others perspective.

 

[igrowone]

When I say truly evil, I mean people like the Nightstalker, Manson, Dahmer, Hitler, Stalin, Mao. Some people are truly evil. I have seen more than a few people who have beaten their own children to death in my area recently. If you don't see that their is evil abounding in this world, you aren't paying attention.

People get so focused on what they think is a better way, they fail to account for the evil in the world.

I will be the first to admit that I can get riled up about politics. I try to see others perspective.

interesting choices and order
the first 3 were seen as criminals during their lives
the last 3 were seen as heroes in their countries during their lives
not arguing with the evilness, just that there are categories

 

[packerfan79]

Here's a strange fact most people don't know. The Japanese killed over 10 million Chinese, during WW2. Mostly civilians.

 

[Elmer Bud]

Here's a strange fact most people don't know. The Japanese killed over 10 million Chinese, during WW2. Mostly civilians.

G `day PF

Then the USA backed the Koumintan and many more died ...
Taiwan ? Shan state Burma ?

Thanks for sharin

EB .

 

[packerfan79]

G `day PF

Then the USA backed the Koumintan and many more died ...
Taiwan ? Shan state Burma ?

Thanks for sharin

EB .

It's quite strange how, pieces of history are not taught. I guess people think we are better off not knowing the horrible things humans are capable of.

 

[Gry]

Here's a strange fact most people don't know. The Japanese killed over 10 million Chinese, during WW2. Mostly civilians.

China put a good deal of energy into making the world
aware of Japanese atrocities.
Our primary interest was in restructuring a Japanese
economy.
When I got off the boat over there in the mid sixties,
the first thing that caught my attention, was the very obvious
and stark scars on buildings and streets, from intense low
level strafing by the Japanese.

It was left that way because of the profound effect it had
on those who saw it.

At that point it had been twenty years since the war had ended.
You could not tell it by the attitude of the people there.

Lot of Interesting things have taken place over there that have a powerful influence over our lives for generations.

 

[packerfan79]

China put a good deal of energy into making the world
aware of Japanese atrocities.
Our primary interest was in restructuring a Japanese
economy.
When I got off the boat over there in the mid sixties,
the first thing that caught my attention, was the very obvious
and stark scars on buildings and streets, from intense low
level strafing by the Japanese.

It was left that way because of the profound effect it had
on those who saw it.

At that point it had been twenty years since the war had ended.
You could not tell it by the attitude of the people there.

Lot of Interesting things have taken place over there that have a powerful influence over our lives for generations.

Definitely not something we were taught in school. Probably to not create sympathy for a communist country. Not that it was a communist country at the time. The cultural revolution didn't come until 66'.

When I was in school we spent mabey 2 hours learning about the horrors of communism. I doubt they even speak of it in American schools now. Now we don't even learn about 9/11. My kids school is teaching about first responders, but nothing about the perpetrators of this tragedy.

 

[Gry]

In 1971 there was a memo written by a principal member of the business community.
The topic of the memo was social control.
One of the primary points brought up was that less educated people are easier to control.
It was considered normal to take chemistry, and a second language in high school.
At the time one could obtain incredible degrees with little cost.
At that point and time, we were at the top of the hill.
Grits to go...
Pre WWII, Germany, Japan, and the United States all three had cancer research programs.
Not one of them did a whit of cancer research.


Can recall seeing waves of students holding up the little red book as they marched.

 

[packerfan79]

In 1971 there was a memo written by a principal member of the business community.
The topic of the memo was social control.
One of the primary points brought up was that less educated people are easier to control.
It was considered normal to take chemistry, and a second language in high school.
At the time one could obtain incredible degrees with little cost.
At that point and time, we were at the top of the hill.




Grits to go...
Pre WWII, Germany, Japan, and the United States all three had cancer research programs.

Not one of them did a whit of cancer research.

The dumbing down of America. It's only getting worse. It's not just the schools, to many parents
do nothing with their kids to help them prepare for school. We had all of my kids reading, writing and starting to do some math before they went to
Kindergarten. Most of the teachers are surprised what they know. My oldest has autism, but also has a photographic memory. He's obsessed with books, he will read a dozen books in a sitting, and repeat them back from memory. He reads to my younger 2. Unfortunately with the failed education we get now, it's up to the parents to do the heavy lifting of teaching kids. I wish we could do a voucher system. If we could take our tax dollars to better schools, the failing schools would have to step up, or get cast aside.

I must be old because I had to take chemistry and 2 years of foreign language. I wish I wasn't such a rebellious teenager, I enjoy learning now. I liked learning then to, I just liked weed, alcohol and pussy more.

Cancer is a cash cow, no money in curing disease only in treating a disease. With medications that have so many side effects that you need a few more medications just for the side effects.

 

[Cannavore]

We will be a 3rd world country in 3 days if you abolish ICE. We will be overrun in days. Our environment and freedoms will be utterly destroyed. I have pie in the sky thoughts of ultimate freedom, but it's not realistic. To many psychotic people who will not hesitate to murder damn near anyone.

ICE is Patriot Act/2003 era legislation and I am against it. We have the CBP (US Customs and Borders Protection) that does the same job, or at least did before ICE. I am not for open borders.

 

[Cannavore]

I am really trying hard to look at the opinions of you guys who lean left. Then you start with the communist and Anarchist talk. I don't get it.

i'm farther left than how i would vote, if that makes sense. and i think most leftists are the same way. which is why bernie had crazy support amongst the disenfrachised. i dont vote lol, bernie literally is the only reason i went out and voted in the primaries. i didn't vote in the general. i live in NY and will probably vote Cuomo out.

Do you really think this world is free of people who are evil?

The only way communism or Anarchism works is if their is no greed, or lust for power, or any other evil in this world. None. Leftist call Republicans evil and murderous. If you truly believe that,
Is it a good idea to cut them lose of all law restraining them?

i'm well aware of this, which is why my political ideology is that of social democracy and not anarchism. that's what differs from me with US libertarians, i know what i actually believe isn't applicable, at least not currently. nor do i even consider myself an anarchist or advocate for such things. im just a regular libtard lol.

How many murders happen each day worldwide?
Hundreds, maybe a few thousand. This is with extensive law enforcement and military keeping things civil(as civil as can be). With no Police, ICE, Military you could multiply that number by thousands.

i'm 100% for law and border enforcement as are most liberals i know. ironically i have a friend who identifies as a libertarian and thinks open borders are the way to go lol.