The Terpenes of Cannabis Their Aromas and Effects

[Seaf0ur]

I see no need for argument. I did overlook Lee initially, although if I'm not mistaken, he is cited in Russo's pdf which I included in its entirety along with 3 others. What I can't agree is to give full credit to Lee for the entirety of my post as you alluded to previously... I dont see any reason for negativity from anyone any further on either side nor do I require a champion or cheerleading section. I used a portion of Lee's words. The actual info about the terpenes he did not provide.

 

[Only Ornamental]

Dear Mod, as there are a lot of citation fans (me included) here around, couldn't you integrate EndNote as a tool here?

Seriously, this is not a scientific paper and, though I appreciate proper citations, one can not expect this done when at the same time people copy-past whole paragraphs or attach pdf's of billable journals. That's plagiarism and a lot worse than 'forgetting' a warm-hearted THANK YOU. Still, no one takes offence when people do that in here... after all, it's great to get things for free; X-Mas the whole year round! (Dunno if I should add a smiling or crying smiley here...)

@C4: In theory, it's good enough to cite review literature and hence indirectly acknowledge everyone cited in there too. Although, it's always best to directly cite the ones who have done the real work .

 

[rasputin]

What I can't agree is to give full credit to Lee for the entirety of my post as you alluded to previously

I guess you missed this part of my 2nd post, seaf0ur? I addressed this already.

I'll concede that my original post was poorly worded in that you do not need to credit the "entire" post to Lee, just the portions you copied from his article. There is no logical argument against doing so.

I acknowledged my misstep, will you do the same with yours?

Lee is not cited in Russo's PDF, just fyi.

Again, props for putting all that info together. I just wish you would respect other peoples work enough to give them credit for it.

Enjoy your thread.

 

[Payaso]

Actually there is no need for arguing here.

The point is that if you quote someone you need to credit the source.

No byline, credit or thanks is simply plagiarism and should not be encouraged.

We do respect copyright law here at ICMag... it is for the common good.

 

[Seaf0ur]

A simple PM could have much easier solved the issue. I popped in halfway through what seemed a public argument.
I've added a link to Lee's high times article.

I started this thread hoping someone would actually share some useful information about the terpenes... I'm looking for specific data on them. Something noone else has done that I can find aside from to simply talk about them being important.

 

[Avinash.miles]

altho i totally agree w Payaso....
also i've always noticed that there are a good amount of threads on icmag with incredibly vast information contained in them... and no citations or sourcing at all;
just one example i've been reading lately:
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?threadid=94673
TONS of great info in this "Fermented Plant Extracts" thread, but 4 giant posts no sourcing or citations at all (does say "i found this article")

I think as a trend on icmag people should just be less confrontational... use the mods a resource instead of making snarky posts and inciting off-topic conversation that only detracts & distracts from what the thread is REALLY supposed to be about.

yes i said it "use the mods as a resource" (hope u dont mind that payaso, and others).
like C4 said, a PM would suffice, and would not cause pages of distracting posts that later must be cleaned up by mods.

my2cents... back to Terp Talk

 

[Daub Marley]

I never have seen or heard of this, altho I have certainly seen the exact same clone grown under different conditions, lights, lumens, photoperiod, soils, Hydro, fertilizers, water, humidity, pot size, plant size, EC, temperatures, under lights, outdoors, greenhouse, they all effect terpene expression, and can make the terpene % be much lower.
Why do you think it changed? If it did it was the expression, not the genes that changed, thats why the smells came back?
-SamS

When the DNA of a clone has changed then it is considered a sport. I believe apricots are an example of a peach sport. So the DNA of clones can mutate, but the mutated clone would no longer be considered a clone but would be considered a new species.

The terpenes that the plant produces are environmentally influenced and can change depending on the plants needs. Certain terpenes will be produced in greater amounts when certain insects cause damage. The bugs have some enzyme in their saliva or something because mechanical wounding did not elicit a response from the plant. These terpenes are a messenger for parasitic insects. Thats just one example but there are many VOC's produced that act as a messenger to other plants, insects, and mammals.
Terpenes also play a role in drought. When plants dry out the cuticle on the trichome vents the terpenes and they will seed clouds and cause rain in greater amounts. I don't know how that would shift the smell but its likely that the plant produces easier to assemble terpenes for that purpose.
The point is that terpenes play a huge variety of roles in plant development, communication, and environmental expression, and it is likely that the smell should shift depending on those environmental factors.

 

[Dropped Cat]

Been reading up on terpenes, works by Sam R. Zwenger and a banned
member, spurr.

Seems I have only stumbled upon the effect of secondary metabolites
in my grow. I believe my lost and found black pepper scent has everything
to do with my change of lighting.

Reveg of a reveg and S1 project spanned two different light sources.
I have since returned, by necessity, to the same light source as the
first gro/flower.

I maintain the original thunk mum and will flower one of her cuttings
under the current lights and confirm my suspicions. I'll let you know
as soon as she starts throwing pistols. It'll be a while.

I must keep better track of these things. sigh.

 

[mexcurandero420]

If you want to know more about terpenes, this book is a good start to begin with

For people around here who understand German

Eliane Zimmerman has written a good book

Keep on growing

 

[rasputin]

Hey, thanks Payaso. When you say it, it sticks, when I say it I get called a troll. Funny how that works but I'll keep that in mind going forward.

avinish, if the problem is so widespread I'm sure you can find a more recent example than 2008. sophisto was also clear to mention it's from an article, not his own work. I don't think the notion that "he did it, too" justifies anything at all, just so we're clear on that. The organic forum - where I've spent the majority of my time on this site - has come a long way since then in the way of attribution, citing source material, including attachments, etc; so that people can check it out for themselves. Seaf0ur is a fellow member at the LG forum and he knows over there people do those things all of the time.

seaf0ur, I'll address your blatant misrepresentation of what happened in PM. You're pathological, dude.

As for terpenes -- this might be of interest to some.
https://www.novapublishers.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=47200

New Developments in Terpenes Research

Editors: Jinnan Hu (Department of Plant Pathology, The Ohio State University, Columbus, Ohio)

Book Description:
Many of the terpenes compounds are naturally occurring organic products abundant in plants, which have been employed for centuries as odorants because of their aromatic qualities. In the last decades, their valuable properties have attracted growing interest in the pharmaceutical area. In fact, a large number of the world’s population uses plant extracts or their active compounds for health related purposes. Due to the continuous research efforts on terpenes compounds, numerous advances have been made in many aspects including advanced extraction and processing approaches, molecule structure analysis, usage for flavor enrichment, and most importantly, its potential pharmaceutical applications.

This book manages to cover many of the recent developments. The potential of some monoterpenes has been reviewed for their use as substrates to obtain new natural flavor compounds with economic and commercial interest. The potential medicine functions of terpenes have been thoroughly discussed in four chapters, including: the current knowledge on the antitumor potential of diterpenes in relevant cancers; the application of rosemary extracts as cancer therapy which contain a high concentration of phenolic diterpenes; the possible development of an effective immunotherapy for cancer originated from triterpene compounds such as uncarinic acid and ursolic acid; and the promising antibacterial, antioxidant, phytotoxic, insecticidal activities of essential oils extracted from the leaves and bugs of Syzygium.

After these discussions and reviews on functions, the later chapters change to other interesting topics, such as a review of the development of effective extraction methods with extraction efficiency, as well as the description of recent advances in the environmentally benign oxidative processes where greener oxidants are used. The last two chapters discuss structures of terpenes: firstly, two computational chemistry approaches are introduced which can serve as important tools in predicting molecule structures and elucidate the mechanisms of action. Finally, the structures of two recently reported pentacyclic triterpenes and their pharmacological potential are discussed. (Imprint: Nova)

 

[EclipseFour20]

I never have seen or heard of this, altho I have certainly seen the exact same clone grown under different conditions, lights, lumens, photoperiod, soils, Hydro, fertilizers, water, humidity, pot size, plant size, EC, temperatures, under lights, outdoors, greenhouse, they all effect terpene expression, and can make the terpene % be much lower.
Why do you think it changed? If it did it was the expression, not the genes that changed, thats why the smells came back?
-SamS

Sam...what about "epigenomic modifications" due to "environmental" differences? Particularly DNA methylation which can alter gene expression without changing the order of the DNA alphabet (A-T-C-G)--thus preventing certain genes (terpenes) from being expressed. Perhaps that can explain why a plant's genes don't change--but the plant (and future generations) did "change".

I stumbled on this study, "Transgenerational epigenetic inheritance in plants", a few months ago and it certainly explained a few things I have experienced...that clone of a clone of a clone (times 100) can change over time--sometimes for the worse and sometimes for the "better"....and sometimes the change/defect is not "permanent" (meaning as a cultivator I induced the environment that reversed the "defect" that previously was being passed to successive clone generations. I seriously doubt my actions changed/mutated the DNA--but rather my efforts "altered the gene expression" for successive generations).

www.researchgate.net/profile/Marie-Theres_Hauser/publication/51072470_Transgenerational_epigenetic_inheritance_in_plants/links/00b7d531a204ddba62000000.pdf

 

[TheMedicalStone]

This is, much more complete then any 1 list i've seen thus far. Abosolutely awesome that you summed them all up.

Pitty not everything has a known medical property yet (or is known but was not during creation of this list) and that there is no toxicity level noted in the books though, at some level some have negative effects, I know that most users don't care because the effects are minimal but I'm going to do one for fun anyway (if I'm at wrong at any point, feel free to correct me) just to pick one totally random.

-----------------------
N-VALERALDEHYDE

n-Valeraldehyde can cause irritation of eyes, skin, nose, throat (Respiratory System). Limited studies to date indicate that these substances have chemical reactivity and mutagenicity similar to acetaldehyde and malonaldehyde.

Exposure to acetaldehyde has produced nasal tumors in rats and laryngeal tumors in hamsters, and exposure to malonaldehyde has produced thyroid gland and pancreatic islet cell tumors in rats.

Acetaldehyde is known as carcinogenic, carcinogenicity of n-Valeraldehyde has not yet been tested.

Exposure limits given today are 50 ppm (175 mg/m3) for all Aldehydes, which includes n-Valeraldehyde.

To make a rough estimate of how much you're getting. In a 17% THC strain something like 19 ppm, a very rough estimate, of THC could be expected from a vaporizer (based on a random pilot study from Acedimia). That meanst that the actual amount of n-Valeraldehyde we inhale MINIMAL but n-Valeraldehyde is extremely common in food etc. so the exact dose we generally get during the day is hard to calculate. It's still highly doubtable to be a severe health risk (based on users opinion).

Medical Benefits:

Unknown, could not find any.
----------------

 

[Bubbleblower]

toxicity level

Here another recent example for the RKS fans:

Workers die after chemical leak at DuPont plant near Houston (Reuters).

Mercaptan is very deadly and very bad for your eyes.

 

[truecannabliss]

Incredible info for those living the Terplife.

 

[HillBilly1]

Damn another thread fucked off

 

[Daub Marley]

Here another recent example for the RKS fans:

Workers die after chemical leak at DuPont plant near Houston (Reuters).

Mercaptan is very deadly and very bad for your eyes.

To my knowledge the skunk smell from cannabis is not mercaptans. If it were then it would be easy to identify, but after discussing this with some labs its obvious that nobody knows exactly what it is. If I were to guess then I would say that it's an oxidized terpene or pyrazine. Check this out about the maned wolf.

"Both female and male maned wolves use their urine to communicate, e.g. to mark their hunting paths or the places where they have buried hunted prey.[8] The urine has a very distinctive odor, which some people liken to hops or cannabis. The responsible substance very likely is a pyrazine, which also occurs in both plants.[9] (At the Rotterdam Zoo, this smell once set the police on a hunt for cannabis smokers.[9] [10]) "

 

[Avinash.miles]

To my knowledge the skunk smell from cannabis is not mercaptans. If it were then it would be easy to identify, but after discussing this with some labs its obvious that nobody knows exactly what it is. If I were to guess then I would say that it's an oxidized terpene or pyrazine. Check this out about the maned wolf.

"Both female and male maned wolves use their urine to communicate, e.g. to mark their hunting paths or the places where they have buried hunted prey.[8] The urine has a very distinctive odor, which some people liken to hops or cannabis. The responsible substance very likely is a pyrazine, which also occurs in both plants.[9] (At the Rotterdam Zoo, this smell once set the police on a hunt for cannabis smokers.[9] [10]) "

good post & good info...thanks

 

[TheMedicalStone]

Here another recent example for the RKS fans:

Workers die after chemical leak at DuPont plant near Houston (Reuters).

Mercaptan is very deadly and very bad for your eyes.

Yeah but Mercaptan is only really hazardous above 150 ppm if I'm not mistaking so it's not great for you but we are getting trace amounts of this chemical when vaping. Most of it most likely starts evaporating before we even start inhaling it because the boiling point is around 95F 35C in most forms and it's often not even detected in samples.

Here's a nice site for US users I think, if not, it's atleast informative. You can check terpene tests, fungi tests (some dispensaries actually fail, that's just horrible) and other tests.

http://sclabs.com/tested.html?optio...ype=&test=RST&sclsearch=&client_ids=&limit=20

 

[Avinash.miles]

Damn another thread fucked off

exactly

 

[rasputin]

To my knowledge the skunk smell from cannabis is not mercaptans. If it were then it would be easy to identify, but after discussing this with some labs its obvious that nobody knows exactly what it is. If I were to guess then I would say that it's an oxidized terpene or pyrazine. Check this out about the maned wolf.

"Both female and male maned wolves use their urine to communicate, e.g. to mark their hunting paths or the places where they have buried hunted prey.[8] The urine has a very distinctive odor, which some people liken to hops or cannabis. The responsible substance very likely is a pyrazine, which also occurs in both plants.[9] (At the Rotterdam Zoo, this smell once set the police on a hunt for cannabis smokers.[9] [10]) "

Very interesting, great post Daub!

I wasn't aware of pyrazine; what's intriguing about the concept of oxidized terpenes is that I noticed a few months back when my dog was sprayed by a skunk that the initial spray does not resemble what we all commonly refer to as the 'Roadkill skunk' smell. It's predominantly sulfur smelling, like burnt rubber. Nasty, putrid funk.

The next day, though, the patio area and the room she first came into smelled like someone smoked some killer skunk bud. So it took some time for the initial sulfur smell to sort of mature into a different aroma entirely, to what we identify as roadkill skunk.

I have almost never found bud that actually smells roadkill in the bag. Only after it was smoked did the room have that skunk funk. Interesting to think that it could be initial terpenes + oxidation that creates that roadkill funk. The odd thing is Skunkman and some people's recollection of bud that smelled like roadkill, something I haven't personally experienced, but would suggest there are/were ("what happened to RKS?") terpenes capable of producing that smell on their own.