The Organic Think Tank

[whiterasta]

do what your comfortable with, and what works for you, or in some cases what your budget can afford.


the argument that conventional farming produces more yield...find some unbiased research. over a few years organic yield can match conventional/salt yield.

organic farming:
-less energy
-less water
-reduced soil and groundwater pollution
-increased biodiversity
-soil conservation
-sustainable

"A twenty two year study done by Cornell University revealed that organic farming produced the same yields of corn and soybeans as conventional farming, but used thirty percent less energy, less water and no pesticides; as well as using, on average, thirty percent less fossil fuel (Cornell University News Service). Under drought conditions organic farms also produced higher yields."

conventional farming is nearsighted.


edit: ^^^ all applies to large scale farming. i have no problem lazy man or any salt based hydro farmers doing ganja grows indoors for patients. respect.

Bravo!
But just cause, here is what organics can do in 65 days with nothing but water. 2gal pots yeild 2+oz plants for 4lbs from 2.8kW of this quality.

And the soil is reusable again before it needs 'rest' and re-amended.
It works really well for me and has for more yrs than I like to think about anymore
WR

 

[baet]

the starving planet issue is tough. it's going to happen sooner than later,
reproduction = a double edged sword.

sometimes I think humans as a species weren't supposed to make it this far. we broke away from the less intelligent species, and the survival technique of reproduction that keeps so many species un-extinct will be the problem threatening our survival. our existence is an irony because we're already so screwed. population control?

 

[baet]

whiterasta-couldn't be any simpler than just adding water huh. awesome yield man, well done.

 

[Lazyman]

Borlaug states that he felt the planet could support up to 10B people with modern farming techniques and improved genetics, but yep, there's a limit and it's coming.

 

[DHF]

Wow........Is this a can of worms or what......I`ve gotta say after 15 yrs growin inside with GH 3 part that I never considered organics as a viable return on investment since what I was doing was/is illegal and I needed the most bang for my buck come choptime........

GH has come out with an Organic line for all you trend shoppers , but I submit that less is more and all the additives and doohickey`s mean little in the bottom line........ROI......

If you deal with residual salt buildup by flushing with reduced nute concentrations on a regular basis , then dwindle ppm concentrations towards the end , I assure you NO one will be able to tell the difference between organic and GH/any base nute done right nugz........

I`ve got major respect for all Organic growers , but as far as other than on a hobby basis for personal........Chem nutes required for indoor production purposes..........Nuff said......

The plants don`t know what their nourishment is as far as organic or chemical so........Experience gives the best end product..........

I`m sure there`s exception`s to the rule but I`ve not seen evidence of it ..........

Peace......DHF........

 

[xmobotx]

From 1942 to 1944, Borlaug was employed as a microbiologist at DuPont in Wilmington, Delaware. It was planned that he would lead research on industrial and agricultural bacteriocides, fungicides, and preservatives. However, following the December 7, 1941 attack on Pearl Harbor, Borlaug tried to enlist in the military, but was rejected under wartime labor regulations; his lab was converted to conduct research for the United States armed forces. One of his first projects was to develop glue that could withstand the warm saltwater of the South Pacific. The Imperial Japanese Navy had gained control of the island of Guadalcanal, and patrolled the sky and sea by day. The only way that U.S. forces could supply the troops stranded on the island was by approaching at night by speedboat, and jettisoning boxes of canned food and other supplies into the surf to wash ashore. The problem was that the glue holding these containers together disintegrated in saltwater. Within weeks, Borlaug and his colleagues had developed an adhesive that resisted corrosion, allowing food and supplies to reach the stranded Marines. Other tasks included work with camouflage, canteen disinfectants, DDT to control malaria, and insulation for small electronics.

once again i am beatenhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_Borlaug#cite_note-greengiant-9

 

[mostnonymouse]

Nature's way is always best, in all aspects of life. Anything that seems to beat the natural way will eventually be revealed to have some (sometimes serious) drawbacks. We were given a beautiful world and poisoned it through our own ignorance, and only now are we beginning to realize it.

 

[Danks2005]

I have used both chemical salts and organic. I now grow everything organic, for one reason, sustainability. I am trying to reduce MY carbon footprint. I will not use more fossel fuel in any way, for a buck(yeild). I make fantastic compost from the leaves in my yard and food/garden waste without driving anywhere. If I could afford to use solar power I would, and will one day. I feel like the world would be a better place if more people took things into their own hands, such as gardening, rainwater collection, hunting, fishing, ect. I want to know what I am eating, and not trust someone only interested in money to feed me. This is my opinion, and I am not perfect, I do drive a car, and I do get power from a coal burning powerplant, I do have modern luxuries, and I do buy some produce/meat at the grocery store(though if I am buying it I try to buy from local farmers markets). But, I would like to get to a place where I take care of me and my family, and my "world" is not run by money. I beleive fossel fuel is bad mojo, check out the gulf of mexico. Organic for the planet, not for your pocketbook. Peace.

I just read my post and realized it makes me look like a tree huggin hippie, I'm far from it, but I do care about our planet. I will kill anything that tastes good, lol, and I tote guns everywhere, watch out who you mess with out there haha.

 

[Danks2005]

Lazyman, I mean no disrespect, and your grows are bad ass. But just because someone is a nobel prize winner, and a genius does not mean they can't be wrong. I'm just saying, and no I am not very familiar with his work, but I will be shortly.

 

[Danks2005]

Diammonium Phosphate uses fossil fuels to make the ammonia, and they strip mine for phosphate used to make the phosphoric acid, neither of which are renewable, and both can be disastrous to ecological systems, both are also widely used and an important part of our modern way of life. I still think we over indulge, and if there wasn't huge financial gain from these industries, we could move on to a more self sufficient way of life. I mean why wouldn't large oil companies with extremely deep pockets, do all they can to keep renewable energy expensive and out of our hands. I wonder how many patents they have bought and locked up until the oil runs out. People need to be concerned with humanity 1st, and getting rich secondary.

I do not like widespread use of chemical fertilizers which Borlaug used, but their is no doubt in my mind his studies and actions were to better the lives of humans in general, and he did just that.

 

[RNDZL]

I disagree that mother nature knows best.

After all, do plants with 1000PPM of atmospheric CO2 not grow faster than those with 300PPM? Mother nature cannot do that, but I sure can.

Just because its natural does not make it better. Rhubarb leaves and nightshade are some of the most poisonous substances in the world, and I am not smoking them either!

Salt-based ferts and GMO seeds are necessary to feed the earth's burgeoning population. The earth only has enough arable land to feed 4 billion people if every farm were organic. Since we're already at 6 billion, which 2 billion people should starve to death?

Organics are not the future of farming, they are a gladly forgotten past. Anything mother nature can do I can do better!

I would like to address alot of the stuff dropped here and my assessment of applied logic

I do understand both the global food production and marijuana cultivation markets and have a ton of input

First before I go any further

Our growing techs are not a measure of our skill as a gardeners

the quality of our flowers do

I would prefer synth grown flowers form a master gardener than organics done poorly and vice versa

many of the reasons behind the arguments lack relativity when we bring flower quality into the equation


what we need to do is have enough of an understanding of all the various techs to find the one that fits the time place and gardener to enable

EVERYONE TO HAVE MEDICINAL QUALITY CANNABIS

the variables past that, can be added in and used as additional comparative benefits or cons past that

but it seems we have deviated past organics on a cannabis level and are looking at gardening at an aggregate and sustainability manner

I am very confident that

A) organics, esp cultivated beneficial in the form of ACT, has a huge future

we can use man made science to make more of the good things organics provides without taxing the traditional organic stores

B) more precisely hydro organics is a huge part of that future in man made cultivation because hydroponics will give more biomass over a series of harvest via shorter crop life cycles or larger yields

now in regards here is where there i a lack of relativity

in certain markets like the rice market, there is such a demand, that no right now we may not be able to produce a all organic crop

but do we ant to trust all rice to the same genome and artificial conditions so it can be vulnerable to one plague

Irish potato famine sound familiar?

and now lets add that marijuana is a crop that has exponential cash value and is not consumed in the same manner and is not grown in most instances with oversight to guarantee its integrity when it comes to market

ACT teas in any grow BALANCED grow environment, yes, even applied in a salt based environment (yea many of the freshwater systems i ran for fish were adjusted with salts) will benefit your plants health, in the way of resistance to disease like PM, rot and pests like mites

it offers so many additional benefits that man new products are beneficial based and they simply convolute the source so you don't know

much like how connoisseur from AN is much like Sensi A & B with enzymes and aminos that would be normally occurring in a healthy array of organically derived beneficials such (hygrozyme) or extracted in tea using malt barley (I think this is hte source) you can add small amounts of the organic regime to any gow system and measure the differential yourself

overall the benefit of organics are far greater than the effort required to proficiently use them

but as a base line for growth, health and a reliable method to start with or as a foundation to your grow regime salts are excellent

I really feel there is a relative time and place for both still

I prefer to put seedlings in inert mediums and feed initially with salts

in a hybrid regime a gardener can use salts to achieve very controllable growth and to really manipulate heavy flower growth and the gardener can discontinue the use of salts early enough in the flower cycle to completely process the form teh medium well before harvest

Light organic teas can give the maturing plant the micros and traces and the small amounts micros and macros it needs to gracefully mature without too much a loss of vigor from cutting out the salt regime earlier


i think we need to think about sustainability regardless

no matter how you grow or what you use to do it

to much food goes to waste on dumped reservoir, left over containers and and in rock wool, soil beds, etc

if your plant didn't consume it in its life cycle you fucked up by giving it to much or your plant wasn't vigorous to use it as much as you intended

the excess that causes most of the pain and suffering in the gardening game is also a fault of the gardener

mother nature balances

why should we not do the same regardless of how we do it ?

 

[abe23]

Generally speaking, plants can't tell the difference between nutrients mineralized from organic matter and chemically produced mineral nutrients...they just take up the ions with the water and that's it.

I agree with the OP in many ways...organics farming (whether it's weed or legit agriculture) is a waste of time. It's true that many of the chemical fertilizers are made using petroleum and other non-renewables, but your fox farms stuff also needs oil for the ingredients and final product shipped across the country.

 

[RNDZL]

Generally speaking, plants can't tell the difference between nutrients mineralized from organic matter and chemically produced mineral nutrients...they just take up the ions with the water and that's it.

I agree with the OP in many ways...organics farming (whether it's weed or legit agriculture) is a waste of time. It's true that many of the chemical fertilizers are made using petroleum and other non-renewables, but your fox farms stuff also needs oil for the ingredients and final product shipped across the country.

bad enough this was argued to be bullshit in this thread but you dindt even bother to read a post to see if you weren't spewing propaganda

ignorance is a choice but let me recap for you

organics is not defined by the soil web making ions available NOT AT ALL

plants absorbing IONS lends nothing to drought resistance but the bacteria that live in the soil that have a symbiotic relation ship with the plant do, the same relationship exist to prevent disease and offer increased vigor.

there are many other relationships that occur in micro environment of the rhizoshere let alone the through out the whole of the plant

just because it can be grown successfully without making consideration or these variables doesn't mean they don't matter or exist

 

[vonforne]

organics done right becomes free over time.

Good statement X!

I'd also venture to say that organics indoors are a waste of time, since a properly flushed salt regimen will have the same or better quality, superior yield, faster plant growth and cost less money than bottled organic nutes.

I can get a grow together from scratch for under a 100.00 and smoke most growers ass.......hydro or soil.

Better Quality.....LOL not a chance. But most people can not tell the difference. Even a grower who thinks he does.

and again.......

organics done right becomes free over time.

read "TEAMING WITH MICROBES" and see for yourself how complicated and interconnected an "organic" garden is. it's not only about the food you feed. There are many living organisms that support that "organic" plant.

it is only complicated if you do not understand. As with all tings it is a series of inputs......at the correct time. The same as with Hydro. But your inputs are of different manufacture. One by man and the other by nature. But how well they work is up to the grower and her\his inputs and timing.

Organics in soil are EASY. The soil mix most use is from Cornell Uni circa 1939. 1939! You make your series of inputs with organic matter and water. What the hell is so hard about that. I seen posted earlier that the use of bacteria and fungi is ELABORATE! LOL Come on now. I can take a quart of juice off of my worm bin or a handful of compost ....add that to a 5 gallon bucket with a fish tank aerator and add molasses and multiply it X millions in 24 hours. And then to end the ´elaborate´ task and just water it in.

Organics is so easy a Caveman could do it. KISS

V

 

[Zendo]

Most organic growers shun the 'hydro store' mentality, and laugh at the thought of putting down hundreds of dollars on shiny labeled, over priced, watered down garbage..

As Vonforne stated, our motto is KISS. What could be more simple than taking the path of least resistance?

Make a simple balanced soil mix, add Cannabis, water and feed compost teas.. seems pretty simple to me...

No PH meters, PPM meters, or any other silly gadgets and doo dads that the 'bro's' at the hydro store push on people.

We put the beasties in the soil food web to work, and sit back and thank them for their effort.

 

[foaf]

I live in the deep south and there is this push on the local news shows for people, barbers, pet groomers .... for them all to donate their cut hair/fur so that it can be woven into mats to absorb the current oil spill. The people on TV are sincere and really believe that they can make a difference.

This is how I personally think of people who are dedicated to things that have "Organic" on the label just for the sake of "being organic".

Who can possible be against this type of well meaning effort? These people are well intentioned, they get a good feeling in their organic hearts, and they do absorb some oil...... but... when its all said and done, all that work is basically worthless compared to spraying some chemical dispersant from a plane on the problem. Plus, there is no telling how much fuel they burn driving from barber shop to barber shop collecting small bundles of nasty hair.

Not a great analogy, but it seems kind of a fun one. I think these same people do probably grow using only organic products, and the probably buy only organic bananas; and that's OK with me.

If simplicity is the goal, then you guys have a great deal, Im for it. I do buy organic milk, it tastes better, so taste is the benefit, not the fact that it is organic.

 

[vonforne]

Most organic growers shun the 'hydro store' mentality, and laugh at the thought of putting down hundreds of dollars on shiny labeled, over priced, watered down garbage..

As Vonforne stated, our motto is KISS. What could be more simple than taking the path of least resistance?

Make a simple balanced soil mix, add Cannabis, water and feed compost teas.. seems pretty simple to me...

No PH meters, PPM meters, or any other silly gadgets and doo dads that the 'bro's' at the hydro store push on people.

We put the beasties in the soil food web to work, and sit back and thank them for their effort.

I wanted to say it that nice!! Thanks Zendo. Good post brother.

V

 

[Clackamas Coot]

"I don't care if my lettuce has DDT on it - as long as it's CRISP!" - liner notes from the Jefferson Airplane's "Long John Silver" album, circa 1971 or so.

 

[whiterasta]

Most organic growers shun the 'hydro store' mentality, and laugh at the thought of putting down hundreds of dollars on shiny labeled, over priced, watered down garbage..

As Vonforne stated, our motto is KISS. What could be more simple than taking the path of least resistance?

Make a simple balanced soil mix, add Cannabis, water and feed compost teas.. seems pretty simple to me...

No PH meters, PPM meters, or any other silly gadgets and doo dads that the 'bro's' at the hydro store push on people.

We put the beasties in the soil food web to work, and sit back and thank them for their effort.

And I know if the hydro stores close tomorrow I will still have everything I need to grow "the best". Learn the way of the worm and you will never buy soil again or any amendments and can turn garbage into high quality feed.I have yields par with hydro but spend a tiny fraction of their nute bill on amendments every other crop, have no equipment that can fail and take out my plants, can bottom water and leave for a week to ten days, No salting, I can get soil amendments literally any where and I reuse my media forever with it only improving.In all it is KISS all the way.
WR

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

Please explain to me exactly what "synthetic petrochemicals" are GH flora series.