The Organic Think Tank

[grapeman]

You know nothing about me grapeman, and I owe you no proof of education. Also, why has the conversation got personal all of a sudden.

Those vast tracts of land you speak of, like you know what's going on in africa? Shell making a bigger mess than BP for years and years but no one gives a shit. Geopolitical bah, old school cash political.

I don't subscribe to tree hugger, I am a tree hugger. I've spent many working years on market gardens, orchards, studying with ag scientists, dairy, forestry...

Go fert your sour grapes.

When my industry gets demonized with a "canned" non factual claims direct from the "treehugger" blog, it gets my attention. It is disgusting.

Now you cloud the issue by dragging oil companies into your post when you were originally blaming the farmer and the farmer's greed for your life's problems.

Once again, grow your own food, or just simply boycott the supermarket. This should be a standard requirement for the uneducated greenies who are always quick to critique a industry of which they have ZERO knowledge. Yes, growing your own food. Within a year or 2, your ranks would be thinned from starvation to the point that you and your ilk would be kissing the ass of the American farmer just to get a bite to eat.

That would give you the perspective you so badly need.

I'd bet my life that you can't or won't EVER put your money where your mouth is. You like to eat too much, but love to moronically critique an industry of which you know NOTHING.

 

[grapeman]

grapeman, I see you posting in the organic soil quite often and I have read that you brew compost teas so I'm assuming that you have experience with both chemical and organic farming.

Since you likely have experience with both I am wondering if you have noticed that the organically plants are any healthier or any more disease resistant than the chem grown plants?

I myself have absolutely no experience with chem grown plants as I grow everything in living organic soil so I cannot make a comparison.

All I know is that I never use any pesticides(including neem) outdoor or indoor and have never had more than a fungus gnat problem. And that was in a garden that had already had problems do to a toxic tent.

In my limited experience I have noticed that pests seem to stay away from healthy, happy plants that are thriving in my living organic soil. And I have never sprayed neem ever in over five years.

Last year a hail storm beat the crap out of most of my pepper plants and a couple of those beat up plants later developed a aphid infestation within a few weeks.

So I never ever use any form of pesticide(including neem oil) and the only times I have ever had pest problems were when my plants were stressed from a toxic tent or a hail storm.

I'm not trying to compare my situation to yours as it sounds like you are an actual farmer, but rather I would like to here your input as you likely have experience with both organic and chem grows/farming.

In my work, I have used organic methods for years, but was never 'fully' organic. I am in the organic soil forum since I am playing at my hobby in a organic way. I think it is the best way for me to learn. Especially from the die hards that are so committed to "organic" that they need to solve their problems or lose the crop. It's on that edge where things are learned. I am here to learn.

I have lost an 80 acre organic Thompson seedless crop due to mealy bug. All of the neem oil I sprayed was ineffective. I've been using compost as a top dressing in my vineyards for decades, trying to create a soil atmosphere that was friendly to benes. I've grown hundreds of acres of flame seedless with NO pesticides (which cost me in loss of production) but could never sell a box of grapes for 1 penny more then the market (this was back in the 1980's so maybe I was ahead of this market). But here's the thing. I am not unlike many farmers who are constantly trying to balance their bank account with the health of their land and crops. No one willy nilly nukes their soil or crops anymore that I know of. I find the perception of the treehuger types to be very narrow and just plain wrong.

BTW - it's a well know fact that the first defense against pests or disease is the health of the plant. But put all your money in a crop as your livelihood and you'll be reaching for a pesticide in an emergency.

The post above was so moronic that I just can't take it. And with due respect to xbox, most of the youngest generation are only here on this earth due to the fact that the american farmer produces abundant and cheap food. The one's that claim knowledge are the very one's that can't create their own food and wouldn't even be here if their parents had to work all day trying to grow their own crops instead of getting a job in the field or their choice and being able buy food for less then 10% or their income at the grocery store. Talk is cheap.

 

[EatMoGrass]

I do agree with most of what MrFista posted but I'm not so quick to hate on the farmers. They have been given a pretty raw deal all around. I understand that all it takes is a bad season or two and the family farm may be lost to the bank or a competing farmer. Not to mention the huge investments farmers need to be made to keep up with the larger factory farms.

Farmers are what keeps this country and the world going.

But things seem to be changing and I believe many people nowadays are willing to pay more for your products if they are organic. Weather that translates into your distributors paying you any more that I'm unsure of.

 

[grapeman]

I do agree with most of what MrFista posted but I'm not so quick to hate on the farmers. They have been given a pretty raw deal all around. I understand that all it takes is a bad season or two and the family farm may be lost to the bank or a competing farmer. Not to mention the huge investments farmers need to be made to keep up with the larger factory farms.

Farmers are what keeps this country and the world going.

But things seem to be changing and I believe many people nowadays are willing to pay more for your products if they are organic. Weather that translates into your distributors paying you any more that I'm unsure of.

The irony about the fact that some folks are willing to pay more for organic is that this extra money very seldom filters down to the farmer. And the number of those committed consumers are very small. And even those whom portend to be committed to this life style, turn on a dime for a cheaper product when times are tough.... like today.

With globalization, our traditional summer crops (grapes, stone fruit, cherries etc) are available year around so demand is usually a flat constant. Therefore it is a commodity. Therefore to survive in a commodity business you need to be a low cost producer of superior product. These guys with their twisted understanding of the way earning a dollar works are the first to balk at the higher prices necessary to prepare and grow fruit or veggies 100% organically. Been there done that. Talk is cheap. When it come to the consumer parting with their hard earned dollar it's always another story. A prime example is the existence of Wal-Mart.

 

[MrFista]

Grapeman, I have grown (most of) my own food for 7 years on a small section in the city. Only seven. I still buy meat, which I eat once a week, and milk. I could swap this for other food I guess, it's easier going to the organic butchers.

I never set out to prove I'm the swiss family Robinson. As a young man I learned to salt and plough fields with the best of them.

I have worked in viticulture, floraculture, etc bla bla.

It's obvious I pushed your buttons. Yes it was too broad a statement, but the chem model is broken, we need a new paradigm. I understand farmers just want to put food on thier tables and damn, I'm doing all I can to help and have dedicated my working life to finding profitable solutions for farmers and industry that encompass ecological and economic principles both. I'm sick of greenies that do nothing but display urban guilt, but that aint me.

Most farms here require a weaning period to move to sustainable practise. The land is so depleted of life without the chem ferts the owners would fail. You know this yourself. It's still a broken model.

So moronic you just can't take it - that's me! Walmart shopping obese dumb motherfucker.

 

[grapeman]

I have worked in viticulture, floraculture, etc bla bla.

Yes it was too broad a statement, but the chem model is broken, we need a new paradigm. I understand farmers just want to put food on thier tables and damn, I'm doing all I can to help and have dedicated my working life to finding profitable solutions for farmers and industry that encompass ecological and economic principles both. I

With all due respect, consulting your sustainable principles only puts food on your table and dosen't pay the bills of the farmer. I have traveled the world over and I have yet to see this "sustainable" model produce as much food as today's practice.... which is a combination of the the old way and the older way.

You may wish it otherwise, and I'm sure you'll find sympathetic ears here in this thread, but it ain't happening in the way you present it and it ain't even close to feeding the world. Period.

 

[mullray]

Looks like intelligent informed opinion has walked out the door after being covered in shit thrown by a few organic nazi tree hugging bastards - well I'll be out of here too... Scotty beam me up, no intelligent life forms here. Enjoy kiddies.

 

[Yukon Cornelius]

I will be doing a bio-bucket hydro system with organic nutes. I am using Fox Farms (I know they are not completely organic) and it seems to work great with the DWC I have in my backyard. As long as the plants have the food they need, they should grow fine. The best teacher is experience, and I will take all the teaching I can fit into my day!

 

[MrFista]

mullray - LOL! - "intelligent informed opinion" and "nazi tree hugging bastards" in the same sentence...

If you folk believe the emperor has his clothes on then obviously there is no problem. We can continue as we do and when all the resources are gone, no worries, God will come and fix it.

My growing my own food has nothing to do with saving the world. It is so I can eat food without all the crap farmers spray on it. I got a bunch of neighbours into it too. It's just a bonus that there's now more money for us, and less for fert merchants and fert farmers.

I wrote a few paragraphs and totally upset the natives. Of course, all my points are laughable and untrue, hence the emotional responses they got.

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

AMISH FARMERS PLAY A LARGE ROLE IN POLLUTING THE CHESAPEAKE


The Chesapeake Bay is in such bad condition that President Obama issued an executive order last year to clean it up.

One of the problems plaguing the bay is excessive fertilizer and manure runoff. The Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) is leading the conservation effort and discovered that Amish farmers from Lancaster Country contribute an alarmingly high level of the runoff.

The Amish lifestyle epitomizes sustainability. The Christian community is plain-sect: they dress plainly and reject modern technology, including electricity, preferring to live solely off the land. They use horse and buggies to travel around and often rely on telephone booths for contact, rather than invest in landlines or cell phones.
But no one is perfect. The Achilles’ heel of the Amish farmers is their manure management.

An article in Tuesday’s edition of the New York Times reported:
“According to E.P.A. data from 2007, the most recent available, the county generates more than 61 million pounds of manure a year. That is 20 million pounds more than the next highest county on the list of bay polluters, and more than six times that of most other counties.”
This runoff reduces oxygen levels in the water. Decreased oxygen kills fish and creates “dead zone” regions.
The Chesapeake bay area is heavily dependent on fisheries. Dead zones are a fisherman's worst nightmare.

The EPA wants to work with Amish farmers to improve their methods for disposing manure. There is a lot of money being thrown at the Chesapeake right now, and some of that could go toward helping build better waste management systems.

Unfortunately for the EPA, the Amish tend to be wary of strangers, and even more suspicious of anything government related. The conservation efforts successfully caught the attention of a few farmers, however, among them dairy farmer Matthew Stolzfus.
Stolzfus applied for a government grant that will partially finance a new barn with a manure pit.

Recruiting a few Amish members is helpful for sure, but not enough to curb the dramatic amount of manure piling into the bay.
To make a broader impact, some money is being diverted to local organizations, like Red Barn Consulting, who are already in the good graces of the Amish. Red Barn Consulting offers instructions for farmers on proper manure management and free walkthroughs to provide suggestions. Over the last six months, the company's clientele shot up from several dozen farmers to around 200.
It is crucial that the Amish farmers change how they deposit manure, not just for the sake of the Chesapeake Bay, but also for their own health. The New York Times article reported on an assessment of 24 Lancaster farms and the results are disturbing:
“Twenty-three of the farms were plain sect; 17 were found to be managing their manure inadequately. The abundance of manure was also affecting water quality. Six of the 19 wells sampled contained E. coli bacteria, and 16 had nitrate levels exceeding those allowed by the E.P.A.”
Cleaning up the Chesapeake Bay needs to be a team effort and everyone, even the Amish, need to seriously reassess how their actions can influence the bay.

 

[Maikowjai]

i like hearing about organic pollution, nano fertilizers are coming anyways, chems are just going to get better n better n even more efficient compared to dirt then they already are.

 

[mullray]

mullray - LOL! - "intelligent informed opinion" and "nazi tree hugging bastards" in the same sentence...

If you folk believe the emperor has his clothes on then obviously there is no problem. We can continue as we do and when all the resources are gone, no worries, God will come and fix it.

My growing my own food has nothing to do with saving the world. It is so I can eat food without all the crap farmers spray on it. I got a bunch of neighbours into it too. It's just a bonus that there's now more money for us, and less for fert merchants and fert farmers.

I wrote a few paragraphs and totally upset the natives. Of course, all my points are laughable and untrue, hence the emotional responses they got.

You seem to think this is about you. Trust me you have said nothing intelligent yet but I am waiting. How old are you anyway?

 

[osirica420]

i like hearing about organic pollution, nano fertilizers are coming anyways, chems are just going to get better n better n even more efficient compared to dirt then they already are.

whats with thinking nano ferts had to be chem only.....


First Nano-Organic Iron Chelated Fertilizer Invented in Iran
2009-11-10
TEHRAN (INIC)- The Iranian researchers managed to produce the first nano-organic iron chelated fertilizer in the world which is also the first nano fertilizer produced in Iran.

The mentioned nano fertilizers have unique features like the ultra high absorption, the increase of 20% to 200% in production, the increase of 3.5 times in photosynthesis, and an increase of 70% in the leaves' surface area.

"While the foreign samples bring an increase up to maximum of 30% in photosynthesis, the Iranian nano fertilizers are able to cause 350% increase. Moreover the mentioned nano fertilizers are absolutely environmentally sustainable due to their organic base which makes them more favorable than the foreign fertilizers which are hormone based," Mrs. Toweh Saleh, the sales manager of Sodour Ahrar-e-Shargh Company told INIC.

"According to the agreements between our company and Tehran’s Municipality, the Parks and Green Space Organization are obligated to replace current fertilizers with the mentioned nano fertilizers. This course of action would lead to the expansion of green spaces and produced oxygen volume to a significant extent," she added.

She expressed the hope that the diffusion of information on nanotechnology-based domestic products would raise the tendency of the Iranian farmers to use the newly-born nano fertilizers.

 

[grapeman]

AMISH FARMERS PLAY A LARGE ROLE IN POLLUTING THE CHESAPEAKE


The Chesapeake Bay is in such bad condition that President Obama issued an executive order last year to clean it up.

One of the problems plaguing the bay is excessive fertilizer and manure runoff. The Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) is leading the conservation effort and discovered that Amish farmers from Lancaster Country contribute an alarmingly high level of the runoff.

The Amish lifestyle epitomizes sustainability. The Christian community is plain-sect: they dress plainly and reject modern technology, including electricity, preferring to live solely off the land. They use horse and buggies to travel around and often rely on telephone booths for contact, rather than invest in landlines or cell phones.
But no one is perfect. The Achilles’ heel of the Amish farmers is their manure management.

An article in Tuesday’s edition of the New York Times reported:
“According to E.P.A. data from 2007, the most recent available, the county generates more than 61 million pounds of manure a year. That is 20 million pounds more than the next highest county on the list of bay polluters, and more than six times that of most other counties.”
This runoff reduces oxygen levels in the water. Decreased oxygen kills fish and creates “dead zone” regions.
The Chesapeake bay area is heavily dependent on fisheries. Dead zones are a fisherman's worst nightmare.

The EPA wants to work with Amish farmers to improve their methods for disposing manure. There is a lot of money being thrown at the Chesapeake right now, and some of that could go toward helping build better waste management systems.

Unfortunately for the EPA, the Amish tend to be wary of strangers, and even more suspicious of anything government related. The conservation efforts successfully caught the attention of a few farmers, however, among them dairy farmer Matthew Stolzfus.
Stolzfus applied for a government grant that will partially finance a new barn with a manure pit.

Recruiting a few Amish members is helpful for sure, but not enough to curb the dramatic amount of manure piling into the bay.
To make a broader impact, some money is being diverted to local organizations, like Red Barn Consulting, who are already in the good graces of the Amish. Red Barn Consulting offers instructions for farmers on proper manure management and free walkthroughs to provide suggestions. Over the last six months, the company's clientele shot up from several dozen farmers to around 200.
It is crucial that the Amish farmers change how they deposit manure, not just for the sake of the Chesapeake Bay, but also for their own health. The New York Times article reported on an assessment of 24 Lancaster farms and the results are disturbing:
“Twenty-three of the farms were plain sect; 17 were found to be managing their manure inadequately. The abundance of manure was also affecting water quality. Six of the 19 wells sampled contained E. coli bacteria, and 16 had nitrate levels exceeding those allowed by the E.P.A.”
Cleaning up the Chesapeake Bay needs to be a team effort and everyone, even the Amish, need to seriously reassess how their actions can influence the bay.

Always easy to use too much of a good thing. They've probably been having runoff for decades, maybe more. Someone is just now checking. Lots of organic fellows don't understand the dangers of using manure improperly.

 

[grapeman]

whats with thinking nano ferts had to be chem only.....


First Nano-Organic Iron Chelated Fertilizer Invented in Iran
2009-11-10
TEHRAN (INIC)- The Iranian researchers managed to produce the first nano-organic iron chelated fertilizer in the world which is also the first nano fertilizer produced in Iran.

The mentioned nano fertilizers have unique features like the ultra high absorption, the increase of 20% to 200% in production, the increase of 3.5 times in photosynthesis, and an increase of 70% in the leaves' surface area.

"While the foreign samples bring an increase up to maximum of 30% in photosynthesis, the Iranian nano fertilizers are able to cause 350% increase. Moreover the mentioned nano fertilizers are absolutely environmentally sustainable due to their organic base which makes them more favorable than the foreign fertilizers which are hormone based," Mrs. Toweh Saleh, the sales manager of Sodour Ahrar-e-Shargh Company told INIC.

"According to the agreements between our company and Tehran’s Municipality, the Parks and Green Space Organization are obligated to replace current fertilizers with the mentioned nano fertilizers. This course of action would lead to the expansion of green spaces and produced oxygen volume to a significant extent," she added.

She expressed the hope that the diffusion of information on nanotechnology-based domestic products would raise the tendency of the Iranian farmers to use the newly-born nano fertilizers.

As a farmer who has been doing my job for over 3 decades, I would pretty much declare bullshit on this report from Iran.

I've tried everything. Auxins, Gibbs, cytos, chelates, phosphites, liquid manures, ABA, soil bacteria and fungus.... pretty much everything new that comes down the pike each and every year.. No way possible to increase photosynthesis by 350% by adding nano iron. No way. The only way possible to do this is by getting the leaf to use more carbon. I've tried that also by spraying ethanol directly on the leaf during periods of full intense sunlight. That will increase photosynthesis if done correctly. Iron not so much.

Makes me believe that the crops they started with were poorly maintained to begin with to get that type of increase.

IMO

 

[osirica420]

i was simply speaking of the fact that it was nano organic.. iron is iron

 

[mullray]

As a farmer who has been doing my job for over 3 decades, I would pretty much declare bullshit on this report from Iran.

I've tried everything. Auxins, Gibbs, cytos, chelates, phosphites, liquid manures, ABA, soil bacteria and fungus.... pretty much everything new that comes down the pike each and every year.. No way possible to increase photosynthesis by 350% by adding nano iron. No way. The only way possible to do this is by getting the leaf to use more carbon. I've tried that also by spraying ethanol directly on the leaf during periods of full intense sunlight. That will increase photosynthesis if done correctly. Iron not so much.

Makes me believe that the crops they started with were poorly maintained to begin with to get that type of increase.

IMO

Nano simply means billionth. It's an overused term. 350% ---- jesus who do they think they are kidding? (it sounds like an AN or Dutchmaster claim) That pushes any plant well beyond its physiological capabilities (the chloroplasts - this means they've either found some way of creating a genetic super plant or the research is totally bogus). Anyone got a link to the research? I would love to read it and analyze the parameters.

 

[mullray]

Nano simply means billionth. It's an overused term. 350% ---- jesus who do they think they are kidding? (it sounds like an AN or Dutchmaster claim) That pushes any plant well beyond its physiological capabilities (the chloroplasts - this means they've either found some way of creating a genetic super plant or the research is totally bogus). Anyone got a link to the research? I would love to read it and analyze the parameters.

Yeah no didn't think so.... Anyone besides grapeman got anything intelligent to say? ---- this thread is a sad indictment on organics. Lol. The think tank where bogus info seems to prevail.

 

[MrFista]

Not saying the nano stuff is what they claim but it is interesting that iron comes up.

Hypothetically... There is a ferrodoxin complex in the chloroplasts light reaction structures between photosystem 1's primary acceptor and NADP+ reductase. As this is at the end of the light reactions cycle and electrons are "falling" down to this point, any increase in the ability of Ferrodoxin to shuttle electrons to NADP+ reductase could effectively speed up the whole process providing faster "gaps" for electrons to "fall" into. Ferrodoxin is also involved in the chloroplast providing reducing power for amino and fatty acid synthesis. An increase in cellular synthesis of proteins and lipids could equate to any number of things including heightened chloroplast production.

IF the nano iron chelate was somehow providing increased reducing power in key chloroplast processes an increase in photosynthesis might be realised.

 

[grapeman]

Not saying the nano stuff is what they claim but it is interesting that iron comes up.

Hypothetically... There is a ferrodoxin complex in the chloroplasts light reaction structures between photosystem 1's primary acceptor and NADP+ reductase. As this is at the end of the light reactions cycle and electrons are "falling" down to this point, any increase in the ability of Ferrodoxin to shuttle electrons to NADP+ reductase could effectively speed up the whole process providing faster "gaps" for electrons to "fall" into. Ferrodoxin is also involved in the chloroplast providing reducing power for amino and fatty acid synthesis. An increase in cellular synthesis of proteins and lipids could equate to any number of things including heightened chloroplast production.

IF the nano iron chelate was somehow providing increased reducing power in key chloroplast processes an increase in photosynthesis might be realised.

Sounds good but no. The only way is to force the leaves to use more carbon more efficiently.

Try spraying ethanol on the leaves at about a 25% dilution rate. I worked my way up to about 50% dilution and sped up the metabolism of the vines but it was not cost effective. If you try this, be sure to spray under full lights in the middle of the day (or light period). I know it might sound crazy, but if you spray ethanol and turn OFF the lights, you plants will burn up. They need the lights ON to use the added carbon.

Try it, I did. It'll work.