The Lounge : Growers Round Table Discussion Thread

[bsgospel]

Thanks SlowN,

Most recent test was k3 from Spectrum. Should I use the 8.2 Ca in my BCSR calculation? Base B addition on 8.2 Ca?

Much appreciated!

GB

Yep use the 8.2 number. With those numbers your calcium is low. Do not push with more K or Na. There are pumps in the plant that exchange the two cellularly. For every K it expells two Na. Or rather it takes two K in and then expells multiple sodium. And we shouldn't use ratios. We may ignore the entire CEC if we do that. I've used it to make points but other elements may get pushed out if we go by ratios. Go by real numbers. Keep calcium at 70% and above and go from there.

 

[bsgospel]

This is my first post in the lounge. Thank you all for an amazing thread!

I'm a very small scale hobby grower. Currently using 7 gallon pots in a 4x8. I have read through this, and other, soil balancing threads several times, also using The Ideal Soil v2.0 by Astera.

I'm working with about 100 gallons of soil total, high CEC, so tough to steer. The low volume keeps things manageable - I fully acknowledge that what I'm attempting is not economical at scale. Soil is recycled and reammended based on test result, ammendment preference is for organics. I'm struggling some in regard to micronutrient ratios in a high CEC soil.

BCSR M3 numbers:

Ca 15950/200= 79.75
Mg 2212/120= 18.43
K 3140/390= 8.05
Na 1517/230= 6.6

total meq = 112.83

Ca 70%
Mg 16%
K 7%
Na 5%

Mg, K, Na are all higher than I'd like... Not sure if I should try to grow them off? Try to rinse out some Na? Add more Ca? Or run as is?

The real struggle comes with the micros. Particularly Copper and Zinc.

Test results:
B 7.7
Fe 426
Mn 125
Zn 72.4
Cu 19.3

I used ratios from The Ideal Soil: B 1/1000 Ca, Fe 1/3 ideal K, Mn 1/2 Fe, Zn 1/10 P, and Cu 1/2 Zn (max of 25). I use 4% K as my target.

Desired>Found>Add
B 15.95-7.7= 8.25
Fe 586-426= 160
Mn 293-125= 168
Zn 176-72.4= 103.8
Cu..... 25-19.3= 5.7

Should I even worry about adding micros? Minimum quantities should be available. Advice?

When it comes to Zn/Cu: copper is my limiting factor. Should I balance Zn based on Cu addition (no additional Zn at this time)? I worry about antagonism between Zn/Cu and reduced uptake of P. If Zn is not 1/10 P will I run into a P deficiency?

I appreciate some input working this out.

Thanks,
GB

BTW what is your OM number?

 

[slownickel]

Hey GB, I think you might have missed some of the maximum amounts Astera stated in his book, like slownickel pointed out.

The Ideal Soil Book v2.0 states a maximum of 4 ppm for boron, 50 ppm for zinc and 25 ppm for copper.

And I would bump the Zn up to 50 ppm and add gypsum up to 80-85% Ca if the pH is good or high. And avoid adding anything with Mg, K or Na until those numbers cone down. Other's opinions will vary I'm sure

At 4 ppm, weed is often still asking for more boron!

 

[growingcrazy]

Hey GB, I think you might have missed some of the maximum amounts Astera stated in his book, like slownickel pointed out.

The Ideal Soil Book v2.0 states a maximum of 4 ppm for boron, 50 ppm for zinc and 25 ppm for copper.

And I would bump the Zn up to 50 ppm and add gypsum up to 80-85% Ca if the pH is good or high. And avoid adding anything with Mg, K or Na until those numbers cone down. Other's opinions will vary I'm sure

Which is more important, keeping the balance of nutrients or not surpassing a certain amount of one element?



Outdoors we balance to our samples CEC to minimize leaching...Does that matter indoors with minimal runoff?


My guess is the AA@8.2 Ca on the above sample is in the 5-6k range... B isn't that far off from the theoretical ideal range.


With enough Ca available a toxicity from boron will not happen. Push the Na out and get some available Ca into that soil.


How many of you are getting the Fe : Mn/Cu index numbers from Spectrum on the K series tests?

 

[jidoka]

Do you know OM and N levels?

 

[GingerBeard]

Thanks All,

OM 11.1
N 120
pH 6.2

I measured bulk density yesterday, it was much less than expected (0.24g/ml). Kind of hard to call this soil... more like growing media.

8.2 Ca is LOW at 2671.
Prior additions in the form of gypsum, CalPhos, oyster/carbonate, and dolomite.

I returned to growing about 1.5 years ago after a 20 year hiatus. This started out as TLO. I followed the program outlined in the book, and it worked well enough. Then I started to read more about soil science and agronomy. Starting to put some of the pieces together slowly. Based on the low available Ca in relation to total, it seems like this is a young soil. If I’m able to work it, I suspect results will improve with time.

Sounds like a consistent gypsum slurry is the prescription I’m looking for Or possibly foliar Ca?

Thanks again,
GB

 

[jidoka]

I would get soluble gypsum and water it in at least weekly. Your main problem is going to be having soluble Ca available at the moment the plant needs it.

And yea a good glycine chelated Ca will help.

Also weird pH is just 6.2. What did you put in to get that cec?

 

[GingerBeard]

I would get soluble gypsum and water it in at least weekly. Your main problem is going to be having soluble Ca available at the moment the plant needs it.

And yea a good glycine chelated Ca will help.

Also weird pH is just 6.2. What did you put in to get that cec?

Regarding CEC - likely bio char.
Primary components in descending order are: Coco, peat, vermiculite, pumice, worm castings, compost, char.

I have soluble gypsum. Does a solution of 150ppm Ca 1-2x week sound reasonable? Will pick up chelated Ca for foliar.

GB

 

[jidoka]

Yup. Plus 6-9 ml/gal caglycine once a wk

 

[slownickel]

Yup. Plus 6-9 ml/gal caglycine once a wk

Ritzy?

 

[slownickel]

Regarding CEC - likely bio char.
Primary components in descending order are: Coco, peat, vermiculite, pumice, worm castings, compost, char.

I have soluble gypsum. Does a solution of 150ppm Ca 1-2x week sound reasonable? Will pick up chelated Ca for foliar.

GB

Add some calcium carbonate constantly. Aim for a pH of around 6.7 to 7.0

 

[jidoka]

Ritzy?

It is. And I would agree that once that soil is working it won’t be necessary. In the mean time it will be damn handy.

And if you are a salt shaker like me you are gonna play hell not watching your tissue Ca drop significantly the first 2 weeks of stretch. That is when I use it

I also like to use microbes once a week which is definitely ritzy. Other than that I am pretty cheap

 

[GSWCali]

Which is more important, keeping the balance of nutrients or not surpassing a certain amount of one element?



Outdoors we balance to our samples CEC to minimize leaching...Does that matter indoors with minimal runoff?


My guess is the AA@8.2 Ca on the above sample is in the 5-6k range... B isn't that far off from the theoretical ideal range.


With enough Ca available a toxicity from boron will not happen. Push the Na out and get some available Ca into that soil.


How many of you are getting the Fe : Mn/Cu index numbers from Spectrum on the K series tests?

Hey GrowingCrazy if you could clarify a post you made on the first page of this thread where you like to use ppm for calculating fert requirements but balance in meq. What calculations are you referring to? Is it mg x valance / Molecular weight? I seem to only base everything off elemental ratios and would like to know more about meq if you don't mind sharing. Thanks!

 

[Mountain Kine]

Hey GrowingCrazy if you could clarify a post you made on the first page of this thread where you like to use ppm for calculating fert requirements but balance in meq. What calculations are you referring to? Is it mg x valance / Molecular weight? I seem to only base everything off elemental ratios and would like to know more about meq if you don't mind sharing. Thanks!

You are correct on how to convert to MEQ

 

[GSWCali]

You are correct on how to convert to MEQ

Thanks Mountain Kine! If I'm trying to find my cation/anion ratio I would use the meq formula. For elements such as Ca2+ and Mg2+ seem very straight forward but I'm not sure about Nitrate, Phosphate and Sulfates. Will I follow the same procedure? For example if I have 123PPM of Nitrogen from Nitrate, would I use the molecular weight of Nitrate to find the meq? I appreciate the info!

 

[Mountain Kine]

Thanks Mountain Kine! If I'm trying to find my cation/anion ratio I would use the meq formula. For elements such as Ca2+ and Mg2+ seem very straight forward but I'm not sure about Nitrate, Phosphate and Sulfates. Will I follow the same procedure? For example if I have 123PPM of Nitrogen from Nitrate, would I use the molecular weight of Nitrate to find the meq? I appreciate the info!

As I understand, yes.

 

[frankslan]

Thanks All,

OM 11.1
N 120
pH 6.2

I measured bulk density yesterday, it was much less than expected (0.24g/ml). Kind of hard to call this soil... more like growing media.

8.2 Ca is LOW at 2671.
Prior additions in the form of gypsum, CalPhos, oyster/carbonate, and dolomite.

I returned to growing about 1.5 years ago after a 20 year hiatus. This started out as TLO. I followed the program outlined in the book, and it worked well enough. Then I started to read more about soil science and agronomy. Starting to put some of the pieces together slowly. Based on the low available Ca in relation to total, it seems like this is a young soil. If I’m able to work it, I suspect results will improve with time.

Sounds like a consistent gypsum slurry is the prescription I’m looking for Or possibly foliar Ca?

Thanks again,
GB

Sounds like your soil is very similar to my soil. My plants are failing hard this cycle at day 28 guess I was a little to late with the cal. My NA numbers are even higher than yours.

 

[GSWCali]

Hey everyone. Hope yall are having a great weekend.

I recently got my auto watering system going and I'm starting to make solutions with a greater volume. I use to make 3 gallon batches and hand feed but recently I made a 20 gallon batch and that's going to last about a week. I made it at about 1.8 EC from my usual 1.4-1.5 because my plants were looking hungry. Overall I can really say I have no complaints. I was just noticing if this kind of twisted growth is something I should be concerned with?

I used the following values

N - 147

P - 60

K - 147

Ca - 180

Mg - 45

S - 75

Fe - 2.5

Mn - 3

Zn - 1.2

B - .45

Cu - .6

My pH has been rock solid within the range of 5.9-6.1. I foliar Glycine Calcium about twice a week or every 4ish days and that helps things tremendously. I'm wondering if now that I have my auto watering set up and the plants are getting consistent water now, I shouldn't raise my EC, do these look to be EC related?

I'm thinking maybe this could be micro related and I need to change my ratios a bit? Maybe increase Fe?

As I said overall everything is looking great but heres the pics I was talking about. Thanks!

 

[Ibechillin]

Could have been from the stronger feed strength if the twisting is new. Mn seems excessive and could be causing an uptake issue, Id lower to half what it is now from 3 to 1.5.

 

[slownickel]

Add Mo.