The Lounge : Growers Round Table Discussion Thread

[led05]

Thanks the compost def seems like it has high salts so I think its from there. I use ro water other amendments are top quality, gypsum is down to earth brand. My rockdust is basalt so I think that's straight.


I hope this flushing helped Im going to send another sample in a few weeks and see if the Na left. Then at the end of the round Im going to cut this mix and send that in for a test. Thank you for the help.


I bought this seagreen product for the flush. I guess it was orginally called desalinator plus or something. I legit think these type of product are bullshit but a couple of my plants were pissed off about being transplant for a week now and they all perked up after watering with this seagreen a couple hour after even the plant I flushed looked happier than ever.

Im researching it and the created said this,

"I have no problem responding to your question. No-till farming was intended to be something that was done outside where there were seasonal rains that washed away excess ions, namely sodium. The problem I've noticed with some indoor, or container garden, no-till farmers is that there is no runoff ever, while organic matter top dresses are continually applied. Even though the inputs are organic, many are marine based such as seabird guano or fish meal, or kelp meal, all of which may have rather high amounts of naturally occurring sodium. If the container is never watered to excess the sodium will never leave the system and will build up. The excess sodium displaces other beneficial cations, and even may cause chlorosis or necrosis. Also bacteria themselves are creating acids which are bringing into solution the required plant nutrients, but after a certain amount of runs these acids build up and create acidic soil conditions unless regular liming occurs.

When we mentioned that it can alleviate some of the harmful conditions that may arise out of no-till farming we are referring specifically to excess sodium. Sea Green contains halotrophic and chemotrophic bacteria which will immobilize sodium ions and buffer them from the rhizosphere. It's not a permanent fix but it will work pretty well for a long while.

Of course both of these issues can be alleviated through periodic flushing as if it were a winter rain. Though most indoor or container no-till farmers I have encountered do not incorporate such a practice into their regimen.

I hope this sheds light on to why that statement was made. We are big fans of Masanobu Fukuoka and respect no till farming very much."

toss a bunch of good quality Gypsum at it via slurry your next couple waterings and it'll push it out and then you can stop wondering what, why, how, simply fix it, move on and then resume what you do..... Seagreen WooWoo.....- know thy inputs; sometime less is more

This is very good quality gypsum as an example and suspends in water near immediately with no fuss - I'd call it indoor Gypsum (slightly woo woo) vs outdoor Gypsum if you will

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B008LF4YJY/ref=oh_aui_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

[frankslan]

well I want to know why so I can prevent it in the future or if I decide to make a new soil.

I also topdress sulfur to push it out but I ordered some water soluble gypsum too. I already have a lot of calcium

Im going to keep flushing periodically now I never water to run off ever.

 

[frankslan]

thanks for the advice though led05 I was told sulfur would be better for me but I know gypsum is a good cure too.

 

[redlaser]

Gypsum has about 16-18% sulphur for what that is worth

 

[led05]

well I want to know why so I can prevent it in the future or if I decide to make a new soil.

I also topdress sulfur to push it out but I ordered some water soluble gypsum too. I already have a lot of calcium

Im going to keep flushing periodically now I never water to run off ever.

Gypsum (calcium sulfate dihydrate) pushes out many salts, it works especially well to push out NaCl as NaCl is a Cation & Anion - some would call that an ionic compound - I'm far from a chemist... Gypsum (Ca is a Cation and S an Anion) naturally works perfectly and is cheap ....

I don't care how much S or Ca is already in your soil, it's not going to do what a Gypsum slurry will to push out other things, NaCl especially....

I'm trying to help you focus to fix your issues now. Don't forget Gypsum will push things you want too...

If you'd like send the mix you made in the begging unused (if you still have some) to be tested to help understand where your mix started, went wrong.....

The problem though testing these tiny little amounts of soil once in use is they change daily and by time you got your results back it's far too late... Soil tests are great for acreage, large areas, new large spaces (many, many yards of soil) - Please think about this some, that will help you more in the end rather than chasing a number of data points taken often you don't fully understand and never will as the inputs are not perfect nor consistent, especially when dealing with a small amount of material....

So, what I'm doing is trying to make you learn vs simply being told why.... if you catch my drift... fwiw....




..

 

[jackspratt61]

well I want to know why so I can prevent it in the future or if I decide to make a new soil.

I also topdress sulfur to push it out but I ordered some water soluble gypsum too. I already have a lot of calcium

Im going to keep flushing periodically now I never water to run off ever.

Your test results show 1961ppm of Sulfer before the flush...that's alot,and is much higher than P. S higher than P will cause uptake issues with P.Only Ca removes the Na. Another large problem with your mix is the 500ppm each of Al and FE.Coupled with the high ph and undigested Ca could cause you some problems as the ph drops.High Al/Fe shifts your bases and affects availability of other elements. Once you know where the bases are since flush you can adjust accordingly...otherwise you're still in the dark.

 

[led05]

Your test results show 1961ppm of Sulfer before the flush...that's alot,and is much higher than P. S higher than P will cause uptake issues with P.Only Ca removes the Na. Another large problem with your mix is the 500ppm each of Al and FE.Coupled with the high ph and undigested Ca could cause you some problems as the ph drops.High Al/Fe shifts your bases and affects availability of other elements. Once you know where the bases are since flush you can adjust accordingly...otherwise you're still in the dark.

Ca does push the Na, very true, both cations - but Na rides along with Cl and therefore the need for Gypsum..... But agreed, the other excesses need to go too, for sure

here's a simple overview for those who care (SlowN will especially love this )

https://www.soilminerals.com/Cation_Exchange_Simplified.htm

 

[frankslan]

thanks guys Ill let you know when I test it again. Might just scrap it and start over with a fresh mix.

 

[Mountain Kine]

If one is going to use small containers and essentially a mineralized nursery substrate what is the generally acceptable plan to provide the plant with nutrition once it has completely zapped the charge in the base soil? I would assume conventional ionic fertigation?

Thank you in advance.

 

[led05]

If one is going to use small containers and essentially a mineralized nursery substrate what is the generally acceptable plan to provide the plant with nutrition once it has completely zapped the charge in the base soil? I would assume conventional ionic fertigation?

Thank you in advance.

not sure whom but sound familiar you....

 

[jidoka]

Out of my own curiosity where did the idea of adding extra Carbon (compost) to peat ever come from? Been a while but what is it on it’s own

Edit...plus basalt always brings the Al

 

[Mountain Kine]

Out of my own curiosity where did the idea of adding extra Carbon (compost) to peat ever come from? Been a while but what is it on it’s own

If I may offer an opinion,

I believe that the notion comes from the idea that compost carries with it biology. The combination of compost and peat moss seems to be favored by "living soil" proponents.

Not all compost is created equally however - and there precisely lies the pitfalls in its use.

 

[jidoka]

Imo...if you have low organic matter soil in a field...compost, fuck yea. You probably can’t buy enough to hurt yourself

If you got a container grow with a peat based “soil” fuck compost and fuck worm castings

Just my opinion, others may vary

 

[Mountain Kine]

You probably can’t buy enough to hurt yourself

If only one could say that about some of the more fun things in life.



My recent interest has been in micropropagation.

Any one else experimenting?

 

[frankslan]

Imo...if you have low organic matter soil in a field...compost, fuck yea. You probably can’t buy enough to hurt yourself

If you got a container grow with a peat based “soil” fuck compost and fuck worm castings

Just my opinion, others may vary

whats your mix like?

 

[jidoka]

If I were doing peat it would be SS4 plus amendments to get me to 80+ Ca with about 8% Mg and 5 K

I pick SS4 over Promix for the wollasinite

 

[calisun]

If only one could say that about some of the more fun things in life.



My recent interest has been in micropropagation.

Any one else experimenting?

I'm going to give it a try this month. I have a old plant I got around 2001. I want to see if tc can help rejuvenate it.

 

[Mountain Kine]

I'm going to give it a try this month. I have a old plant I got around 2001. I want to see if tc can help rejuvenate it.

If you create a callous and then perform tissue organogenesis from the totipotent cells of the callous the DNA of the plant will have been completely rebuilt.

I am currently experimenting using a method developed at the Coy Waller Research Institue

What culture media recipe are you using?

TIA

 

[jackspratt61]

Thanks the compost def seems like it has high salts so I think its from there. I use ro water other amendments are top quality, gypsum is down to earth brand. My rockdust is basalt so I think that's straight.


I hope this flushing helped Im going to send another sample in a few weeks and see if the Na left. Then at the end of the round Im going to cut this mix and send that in for a test. Thank you for the help.


I bought this seagreen product for the flush. I guess it was orginally called desalinator plus or something. I legit think these type of product are bullshit but a couple of my plants were pissed off about being transplant for a week now and they all perked up after watering with this seagreen a couple hour after even the plant I flushed looked happier than ever.

Im researching it and the created said this,

"I have no problem responding to your question. No-till farming was intended to be something that was done outside where there were seasonal rains that washed away excess ions, namely sodium. The problem I've noticed with some indoor, or container garden, no-till farmers is that there is no runoff ever, while organic matter top dresses are continually applied. Even though the inputs are organic, many are marine based such as seabird guano or fish meal, or kelp meal, all of which may have rather high amounts of naturally occurring sodium. If the container is never watered to excess the sodium will never leave the system and will build up. The excess sodium displaces other beneficial cations, and even may cause chlorosis or necrosis. Also bacteria themselves are creating acids which are bringing into solution the required plant nutrients, but after a certain amount of runs these acids build up and create acidic soil conditions unless regular liming occurs.

When we mentioned that it can alleviate some of the harmful conditions that may arise out of no-till farming we are referring specifically to excess sodium. Sea Green contains halotrophic and chemotrophic bacteria which will immobilize sodium ions and buffer them from the rhizosphere. It's not a permanent fix but it will work pretty well for a long while.

Of course both of these issues can be alleviated through periodic flushing as if it were a winter rain. Though most indoor or container no-till farmers I have encountered do not incorporate such a practice into their regimen.

I hope this sheds light on to why that statement was made. We are big fans of Masanobu Fukuoka and respect no till farming very much."

how are your plants looking

 

[calisun]

If you create a callous and then perform tissue organogenesis from the totipotent cells of the callous the DNA of the plant will have been completely rebuilt.

I am currently experimenting using a method developed at the Coy Waller Research Institue

What culture media recipe are you using?

TIA

Nice that's good to know

I bought a microclone starter kit from planttc online. I've been reading about and watching videos on kitchen culture. I will do some experimenting with some of those recipes. I'm not sure what recipes I'll be trying just yet. The kit I bought does not have agar it's a more simplified version. I'll post the ones I try.