The Lounge : Growers Round Table Discussion Thread

[GSWCali]

Amazing improvement

Amazing improvement

The Ca Foliar definitely seemed to get things really going. I made a solution of the first one jidoka posted but lowered the Mg back to 30. EC was around 1.5. Plants seem to be loving it and new growth looks very healthy.

I now understand what jidoka meant when he said once you see it you will know. With the 1.5 solution everything seems to be working well.

For the first ten days or so I was using Agsil at 0.2g/gal but after reading about how I would be sacrificing P for silicate I removed the agsil and just go with the CaNO3, MKP, and MgSO4 with micros and so far this had been great. Also this gets my pH to around 6.0-6.1 so I don't have to add any acid!

I'm thinking of doing some foliar with Agsil every now and then. Maybe spray a couple plants and see how each reacts.

I hope now I can have some consistency with veg and get these into 10gal pots and start some training.

Jidoka, that high P and Ca room looks amazing! Do you keep Ca at a high range almost through all of flower?

I appreciate the advice. I'm enjoying every bit of knowledge and enjoying the use of raw salts. Thanks everyone!

 

[jidoka]

On Ca. There is a huge draw on Ca during stretch. I have not found a way to fertigate enough Ca to keep up with demand. So I spray a lot on top of high feed.

After that just feed but it stays high all the way

 

[Ibechillin]

From what I understand currently if you want to see real benefit from foliar application of silica It seems you really want to use monosilicic acid, the plant can utilize it much more efficiently similar to the chelated calcium (the silcon thread i put together goes in depth about it).

 

[jidoka]

Chelated Ca (glycine) works because as a chelated the plant recognizes the chelated compound as N which allows it to remain mobile until the glycine is ripped off. It is kinda a freak thing. It works because Ca is a for real cation

Plant available Si is a stupid weak anion. You aren’t going to chelate it with anything...it will be repelled by the negative charge on the leaf surface and never get in the cellular structure of the plant

The only way in is through the xylem.

Can it help sitting on the surface of the leaf? Really marginal

That shit is the worst of the woo woo. Ksil with some pos marketing guy lying to you. I wish ass cancer on every single one of them

 

[Ibechillin]

Have you tried a Choline stabilized monoslilic acid foliar Jidoka? (I mean no disrespect, I trust your word.) I actually found out about it because of your mentioning the albion calcium in the hollow stem plants thread like last year and researching bio and plant availability more in depth.

 

[jidoka]

Lol...yea and then I have followed that up with tissue testing.

But do tell...what am I missing

 

[Ibechillin]

Nothing apparently haha. Tissue tests dont lie, thanks.

 

[jidoka]

From Only Ornamental when I ask him


]Last time I checked there was just one family of pores (recently discovered aquaporin-like proteins) which allow silicic acid to enter plant roots with subsequent xylem loading. On one hand, these pores have nothing to do with other nutrients and on another, ortho-silicic acid though being an acid is so weak that it only exists in its neutral form at a physiological pH. Most likely, silicic acid enters plants by mass flow, passive diffusion, and the transpiration stream (can't remember the proper term for the latter right now, sorry).

Couldn't find anything else regarding further interactions of silica with binding proteins, transporters, or pores. If memory serves me right, silicic acid is deposited mostly outside the cells and solely as silica (i.e. polymerised silicic acid). BTW silicic acid does not form salts within plants or in soil, potassium silicate etc. are high temperature products either of industrial processes or volcanic activities which, once dissolved in water, turns at best into neutral silicic acid and potassium hydroxide.
Silicon is a beneficial element for most plants and essential for a few such as rice or horsetail and helps in plant defence and stress resistance. One mode of action is simply the mere presence of silica deposits; would you eat an apple spiked with needles or gravel? Bout the same for lice and grasshoppers chewing on grass leaves .
Regarding the negative charge: Yes, silica particles have a slight negative outer charge but that charge is nowhere near what anions and cations have but rather a soft shimmer on the surface of aggregates of hundreds and thousands of atoms (called zeta potential) and not that hard and constant charge on every single atom. The slight negative charge contributes for example to soil CEC and inhibits colloid aggregation in silica suspensions, it's also a major contributor for the separation of chemical compounds occurring on a standard TLC plate. Certainly not enough to limit any nutrient uptake. The reason why and how silica sufficiency limits manganese toxicity is still a matter of debate, though.


Is addition of silicic acid beneficial in soilless or hydroculture? Difficult to say cause many products contain not much plant available silica, are rich in additives, or cost a fortune. In addition to that, higher amounts of silica in water precipitate other elements (mostly metals) as insoluble mixed silicates. The net benefit likely depends on growing style, grow medium (many do contain Si by nature), plant variety, material costs, sales value....
I only grow for fun and so far only outdoors in soil and coco/soil/peat mixtures wherein I prefer to add some silica either in the form of Si-rich minerals (silt/loam), montmorillonite/bentonite (I love that stuff!), and/or diatomaceous earth. Most plants seem to love it![/QUOTE]

Zeta potential turns out to be a bitch to chelate

 

[Ibechillin]

Good to hear about the positive results Only Ornamental has had using Benotonite and diatomaceous earth. Tractor supply near my house has 20lb bags of Red Lake brand diatomaceous earth with calcium Bentonite for $13, ive been thinking of trying it. Ive read of amorphous forms of silica having positive effects on the beneficial fungi population as well.

 

[MrBungle]

Ants hate the red lake earth too....

 

[GSWCali]

Hey yall hope everyone is doing good. I finally got some time to update yall with my run with raw salts.

Overall all my plants seem to be having good consistent growth but I feel like my feeding needs some more adjusting and they are missing something. Yesterday was the 3rd time I sprayed the glycine Ca I've seen the benefits doing that once a week.

I'm following Jidoka's base at the moment but bumped it up 10% just to see how things go.
3.3g/gal Calcium nitrate
1.73g/gal MKP
1.2 Epsom
PPMs (N-P-K-Ca-Mg-S-Mn-Fe-B-Cu-Zn)
135-103-135-165-31-44-3-2-.45-.6-1.2 EC ~1.5-1.6

I think I'm having a K def but it could also be a Ca def also. I think its a K def because I have been doing the foliar Ca but because the plants are growing quick am I not keeping up with the demand? If it looks like a Ca def should I foliar twice a week? If it looks like K I can foliar Ksulfate or K nitrate to get some to the tissue but will also adjust the elemental ratios from the salts to try to balance the feed.

My feeding intervals are kind of random at the moment as I am hand feeding. I plan on setting up my manifold once I transplant all plants to their 10 gallon pots. Because of this sometimes the medium gets dry. Each plant gets abut 1liter maybe 1.25L each light cycle. Could this be a factor with what I am seeing and not the feed its self?

The Kosher Kush's here seem to be hurt the most. Seems like it's growing a bit slow.




Holy Grail Kush and Skywalker Kush - I like the growth but some older/mid leaves show problems






I have a ton of coco buffering up right now and plan to transplant the 5 to their 10 gallon pots and really work on the training but I hope to fix the issues before. As always I appreciate everyone reading and discussing with me. I keep on learning more and more and love it. Thanks all

 

[MrBungle]

Whats the % of NH4 in your solution?

 

[GSWCali]

Whats the % of NH4 in your solution?

I only get NH4 from the calcium nitrate which is 1.1%. About 9-10 ppm in the solution

 

[MrBungle]

That is pretty low...If I remember correctly just using CaNO3 as your source of NH4 leaves you at around 7% NH4... I've found that bumping the NH4 up to around 10-11% of your total Nitrogen helps maintain a healthy media pH... otherwise the NO3 ends up drifting your media pH upwards over time.. Did you get any Ammonium Nitrate by chance in your salt kit?



How are you mixing your nutrient solution?

 

[GSWCali]

That is pretty low...If I remember correctly just using CaNO3 as your source of NH4 leaves you at around 7% NH4... I've found that bumping the NH4 up to around 10-11% of your total Nitrogen helps maintain a healthy media pH... otherwise the NO3 ends up drifting your media pH upwards over time.. Did you get any Ammonium Nitrate by chance in your salt kit?



How are you mixing your nutrient solution?

Ibechillin also gave me some valuable information about NH4 and the benefits of having a healthy NH4 : NO3 ratio. After what you said I think I'll order some Ammonium Nitrate and implement that in my solution and do some sprays with it.

I have the following salts in my possession.
Calcium Nitrate
Magnesium Nitrate
Potassium Nitrate
Magnesium Sulfate
Potassium Sulfate
MKP
Iron EDTA - 13% Fe 6% N
Copper Sulfate - Chelated Cu
Manganese Sulfate - Chelated Mn
Zinc Sulfate - Chelated Zn
Chelated Ca
Boric Acid
Sodium Molybdate
Ksil

Right now I make 3 gallon batches in a 5 gallon bucket. I will fill the bucket with 3 gallons water and heat it to about 70-75 degrees F to help everything dissolve smoothly. I'm not sure if there is a specific order I should be following but I do as follows.
1. CaNO3
2. MKP
3. MgSO4
4. Micros (Usually Fe first, Mn, Zn, Cu, B, and Mb)

My starting water pH is usuall 7.8-8.0 and after I add everything it usually gets to 6.0-6.1 and I sometimes use pH down sometimes I leave as is.

 

[GSWCali]

BSGospel mentioned about how the formula that I am using at the moment is cation heavy and I should lower the input of CaNO3. When I get ammonium nitrate should I lower CaNO3 and use the Ammonium Nitrate to reach my N ppm I Desire or aim for the NH4:NO3 ratio of 1:10?

Can anyone steer me in the right direction on balancing cation anion ratios in mEq?

 

[bsgospel]

I'm not to be trusted these days. My brain is mush from not being able to try things at work or see numbers. I find myself forgetting things that used to be really easy.

In the most basic application you want your meq of cations to closely match your anions in the solution. But you need to also push meq in medium/soil solution. It's matching Tetris pieces or complementing what you need to achieve in the medium. People much smarter than me can tell you better how specifically to do that if you want to get another test.

 

[GSWCali]

I'm not to be trusted these days. My brain is mush from not being able to try things at work or see numbers. I find myself forgetting things that used to be really easy.

In the most basic application you want your meq of cations to closely match your anions in the solution. But you need to also push meq in medium/soil solution. It's matching Tetris pieces or complementing what you need to achieve in the medium. People much smarter than me can tell you better how specifically to do that if you want to get another test.

Hello BSGospel. When you mentioned meq balance I googled "meq cation anion balance in solution" and read the article
https://www.smart-fertilizer.com/articles/Cation-Anion-Balance

Is the calculation in that article what you mean? If so when I get back from classes I will do all the calculations and see how my Cation anion balance is with the solutions I've been using. Thank you for opening a new topic to dive into.

 

[MrBungle]

I'd stick with the 1:10 NH4:NO3 cause if you go too heavy with the NH4 your pH will drop like a rock... keeping the balance is key.... another way to raise your N without messing with your NH4:NO3 ratio is with other forms of N such as aminos and or Nitrogen fixing bacteria


Forgot to talk about mixing... Are you getting any kind of floaters in your solution? (precipitation) or notice grit at the bottom of your res when you are finished watering? I save the Calcium and micros for last, cause they are a little more finnicky due to pH when being mixed into solution... but if your solution is staying mixed, I don't see a reason to change your method at all..

 

[GSWCali]

I'd stick with the 1:10 NH4:NO3 cause if you go too heavy with the NH4 your pH will drop like a rock... keeping the balance is key.... another way to raise your N without messing with your NH4:NO3 ratio is with other forms of N such as aminos and or Nitrogen fixing bacteria


Forgot to talk about mixing... Are you getting any kind of floaters in your solution? (precipitation) or notice grit at the bottom of your res when you are finished watering? I save the Calcium and micros for last, cause they are a little more finnicky due to pH when being mixed into solution... but if your solution is staying mixed, I don't see a reason to change your method at all..

Thanks MrBungle I placed a order for Ammonium Nitrate and will play around with my formula numbers to fit that in.

My solution stays aqueous but maybe when I make solutions with greater volume my method might not work. Once I set up my manifold for auto feed I plan to make ~30 gallon solutions and I'll keep that in mind about the precipitates. I think once I have auto feed set up I will see greater improvement because this coco coir I'm using dries very fast. "Birds nest coco" literally feels like I'm growing in hay haha.

My plants really seem to be taking off right now. The one Kosher Kush I transplanted to 10 gal a few days ago seem to be established now and growing away so I can't wait to transplant the rest and get things really rolling. 1.5EC with Jidoka's formula, I might boost it by 10% every now and then and test the limits. That's what I'm loving bout raw salts, all the customization!

Thanks for all the knowledge yall