The morgan is reacting all that oyster shell which will be available in a couple of grows. Too much carbonates including oyster shell, can cause weird reactions in the soil. Better to compost carbonates for a couple of months in a good worm casting before trying to use it.
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The Lounge : Growers Round Table Discussion Thread
- Thread starter growingcrazy
- Start date
The morgan is reacting all that oyster shell which will be available in a couple of grows. Too much carbonates including oyster shell, can cause weird reactions in the soil. Better to compost carbonates for a couple of months in a good worm casting before trying to use it.
Was this a Morgan test as well?
For a no-till over a few cycles, your density is going down. I would have thought that should go up.
frankslan
Member
Yes Im pretty sure they use the morgan method. I dont seem them mentioning anything besides morgan on the website. That test was the compost to make my soil.
paradoxlost
Member
Aren't worm castings full of carbonates?
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That is one of the signs that the Ca number is not correct, wrong procedures. This is why the K-3 procedure at Spectrum was put together. The numbers speak themselves, the procedure also calls for weighing out 2 grams.
jackspratt61
Active member
P in the plant is never going too be as high as K. I shoot for k
(elemental) in the plant of 5:1. In the soil, or in the salt mix is a different story.
I would say hire the right consultant.
Or start with getting enough Ca (credit to slow on that one...maybe 4:1 Ca:K in the plant). The rest will reveal itself once you have done that
The real mystery to me is how much so4 do you need for terpene maximization
(elemental) in the plant of 5:1. In the soil, or in the salt mix is a different story.I would say hire the right consultant
.Or start with getting enough Ca (credit to slow on that one...maybe 4:1 Ca:K in the plant). The rest will reveal itself once you have done that
The real mystery to me is how much so4 do you need for terpene maximization
Happy holidays everyone! Piecing things together to get my next grow ready. A couple months ago I got my water report back so I can use raw salts as my nutrients.
With the help of GrowingCrazy he said my water is great for what I want to do and I can use H3PO4 as ph down and to add the extra P that I need. The numbers GC gave were N100 - P100 - K120 - Ca115 - Mg50 - S60 - Si~17 - Fe3 - Zn1.2 - Mn2 - Cu.6 - B.45 - Mo.15.
Jidoka then gave advice to lower Mg to 25, get Ca above K, and to switch Mn with Fe. With that advice Jidoka, I came up with this, N100 - P120 - K120 - Ca140 - Mg25 - S60 - Si~17 - Fe2 - Zn1.2 - Mn3 - Cu.6 - B.45 - Mo.15. Thats ~0.8 EC, would this be sufficient at the start and I would adjust from there as to the plants needs? My medium will be pure coco and for my start, I have 6 inch flora flex pots that will be used. Would that profile be sufficient with the initial buffering of the coco's CEC? When the time comes, I plan to transplant to 10 gal smart pots and I'm wondering if I need to adjust the buffering profile the same as the plants or if I can use the same profile above to buffer the new coco in the 10 gal pots. I appreciate any advice that I can get. Thank you!
With the help of GrowingCrazy he said my water is great for what I want to do and I can use H3PO4 as ph down and to add the extra P that I need. The numbers GC gave were N100 - P100 - K120 - Ca115 - Mg50 - S60 - Si~17 - Fe3 - Zn1.2 - Mn2 - Cu.6 - B.45 - Mo.15.
Jidoka then gave advice to lower Mg to 25, get Ca above K, and to switch Mn with Fe. With that advice Jidoka, I came up with this, N100 - P120 - K120 - Ca140 - Mg25 - S60 - Si~17 - Fe2 - Zn1.2 - Mn3 - Cu.6 - B.45 - Mo.15. Thats ~0.8 EC, would this be sufficient at the start and I would adjust from there as to the plants needs? My medium will be pure coco and for my start, I have 6 inch flora flex pots that will be used. Would that profile be sufficient with the initial buffering of the coco's CEC? When the time comes, I plan to transplant to 10 gal smart pots and I'm wondering if I need to adjust the buffering profile the same as the plants or if I can use the same profile above to buffer the new coco in the 10 gal pots. I appreciate any advice that I can get. Thank you!
That balance is ok
But, just like an onion, there are always more layers. For example take those flora flex pots. They are designed to maximize early root growth with the open grid bottom and that design that lets air move under them
To take advantage of that pot you need to start with one or two wet to bone dry cycles. To the point petioles droop but before stems do. After one of these cycles do you see roots poking out all over the bottom...yes, move on to daily watering with runoff; no, repeat the dry down
How fast that can happen will depend on transpiration. I find 80F, 80-85rH% and 500-600 par 18 hrs per day...if you have t5s slammed down about 8 inches above the tops
Now you are set up for healthy growth, which happens to be shockingly fast growth
And brings me back to your actual question and the 2-3 issues I see:
1) counting on what is on the cation exchange sites of coco is never a good idea. Inevitably there is too much K, Ana and Mg (I have seen 20% on coco with an M3) and not enough Ca. You are feeding toddlers sugar from the get vs high fat and protein
I start my plants in 6 inch with an EC of 2.4 of a balanced mix. I water to a lot of runoff and then let them sit one day before planting
Remember my goal is to fill that pot with roots ASAP with a dry down that makes Ca way more available. If you go 0.8 you are going to run out of food way before water
2) when I roll into daily feed I stay with 2.4
3) in early veg I use lower P by replacing it with either sulfate or silicate. But this is a minor one and you won’t see a big diff
I realize 2.4 might make you think I am an idiot. But unlike bottle nutes you have the balance to pull it off. I would urge at least 1.8
But, just like an onion, there are always more layers. For example take those flora flex pots. They are designed to maximize early root growth with the open grid bottom and that design that lets air move under them
To take advantage of that pot you need to start with one or two wet to bone dry cycles. To the point petioles droop but before stems do. After one of these cycles do you see roots poking out all over the bottom...yes, move on to daily watering with runoff; no, repeat the dry down
How fast that can happen will depend on transpiration. I find 80F, 80-85rH% and 500-600 par 18 hrs per day...if you have t5s slammed down about 8 inches above the tops
Now you are set up for healthy growth, which happens to be shockingly fast growth
And brings me back to your actual question and the 2-3 issues I see:
1) counting on what is on the cation exchange sites of coco is never a good idea. Inevitably there is too much K, Ana and Mg (I have seen 20% on coco with an M3) and not enough Ca. You are feeding toddlers sugar from the get vs high fat and protein
I start my plants in 6 inch with an EC of 2.4 of a balanced mix. I water to a lot of runoff and then let them sit one day before planting
Remember my goal is to fill that pot with roots ASAP with a dry down that makes Ca way more available. If you go 0.8 you are going to run out of food way before water
2) when I roll into daily feed I stay with 2.4
3) in early veg I use lower P by replacing it with either sulfate or silicate. But this is a minor one and you won’t see a big diff
I realize 2.4 might make you think I am an idiot. But unlike bottle nutes you have the balance to pull it off. I would urge at least 1.8
Jidoka thank you for this valuable info!
To your first point on maximizing root growth. I have 4 1000w gavitas indoors and I usually use clones, about 8-12 under each light which allows the room to get quite hot so transpiration is decent. This future run I am going to go the seed route but only 6 as I plan to attempt trees. At the start, I will only need one gavita on until the seeds grow a bit. I can go as low as 200w so I will play around a bit to see how much light is needed. I really don't know if this is a good idea to veg with the gavita, I haven't read anyone who does that from seeds. The issue I can see is with one light on at low wattage, with the temps outside being slightly cold, the indoor temp might not get as high as needed for the proper transpiration needed. Maybe I'll have to add a heater. Would you suggest installing t5s just for the early veg?
"You are feeding toddlers sugar from the get vs high fat and protein".. wow that was beautiful! Makes so much sense and now it really clicks on why you initially said to lower Mg from 50 to 25. Just like us humans if we prioritize sugar over healthy fats and proteins then our foundation is all messed up and we will foresee problems.
Ok so 0.8 is too low and food will be depleted way to fast. I'm going to work on a balanced profile within the range of 1.8-2.4. Now this ec is for daily watering and like you said this can take a couple of days or a week depending on transpiration. What ec range would you recommend with the wet to dry cycles?
You might be the first to say you use 2.4 from the get go but I think that's because the majority uses bottled nutes. I'm intrigued with raw salts and formulating diets for plants to their needs. Kind of like customizing diets for myself with Protein-Carb-Fat balances.
To your first point on maximizing root growth. I have 4 1000w gavitas indoors and I usually use clones, about 8-12 under each light which allows the room to get quite hot so transpiration is decent. This future run I am going to go the seed route but only 6 as I plan to attempt trees. At the start, I will only need one gavita on until the seeds grow a bit. I can go as low as 200w so I will play around a bit to see how much light is needed. I really don't know if this is a good idea to veg with the gavita, I haven't read anyone who does that from seeds. The issue I can see is with one light on at low wattage, with the temps outside being slightly cold, the indoor temp might not get as high as needed for the proper transpiration needed. Maybe I'll have to add a heater. Would you suggest installing t5s just for the early veg?
"You are feeding toddlers sugar from the get vs high fat and protein".. wow that was beautiful! Makes so much sense and now it really clicks on why you initially said to lower Mg from 50 to 25. Just like us humans if we prioritize sugar over healthy fats and proteins then our foundation is all messed up and we will foresee problems.
Ok so 0.8 is too low and food will be depleted way to fast. I'm going to work on a balanced profile within the range of 1.8-2.4. Now this ec is for daily watering and like you said this can take a couple of days or a week depending on transpiration. What ec range would you recommend with the wet to dry cycles?
You might be the first to say you use 2.4 from the get go but I think that's because the majority uses bottled nutes. I'm intrigued with raw salts and formulating diets for plants to their needs. Kind of like customizing diets for myself with Protein-Carb-Fat balances.
Interesting!
6 inch regular ol nursery pot. Fed mostly 2.4 since day 1 in this pot. I tried cutting feed back but stems started getting hollow and petioles red...so back up it went
This one also has very low P. P=Mg=0.2 Ca. An experiment based on fluence bioengineering research that says 24 ppm P is enough. I couldn’t go less than 40 but it is working for me. That is a real OG looking too stout.
GSW...you could use a shade cloth with the DE. Get some real light diffusion and keep temp up. You want that dry down to happen in 5-7 days. Move some air to control how fast it happens
So what the hell...this is the base formula that can work start to finish. It is the base I experiment from.
CaNO3......,.3 grams/gal
MKP. 1.64
Epsom. 1.2
+ some micros, but I ain’t sharing that yet
If I remember right...123N - 98P - 123 K -150 Ca - 30 Mg -40 S
Obviously that is not 2.4 but scale up
P is the one I play with now. Is it worth giving up P for silicate or sulfate. Do you want higher P (this one is a fun rabbit hole)
Anyways merry Xmas
Plus if Avenger is watching he has an amazing rule of thumb about transpiration. Not mine to give up but he might, or not
CaNO3......,.3 grams/gal
MKP. 1.64
Epsom. 1.2
+ some micros, but I ain’t sharing that yet
If I remember right...123N - 98P - 123 K -150 Ca - 30 Mg -40 S
Obviously that is not 2.4 but scale up
P is the one I play with now. Is it worth giving up P for silicate or sulfate. Do you want higher P (this one is a fun rabbit hole)
Anyways merry Xmas
Plus if Avenger is watching he has an amazing rule of thumb about transpiration. Not mine to give up but he might, or not
It is a weird thing. It takes 85% Ca in soil to hit proper numbers. In hydro/Coco it takes 6/5 Ca/ N&K. The Ca from CaNO3 is that much more soluble than lime and gypsum
Is mkp the same? Fuck if I know
But I do know these things stink already. I cut clones tomorrow so lots of leaf.
Edit and btw I do not have a single client trying this. My best (yield) grows all have P = K or higher. But if I don’t need that I suspect I can improve quality
Got any tips? I am curious my own self. Don’t mention the lab...I know
Is mkp the same? Fuck if I know
But I do know these things stink already. I cut clones tomorrow so lots of leaf.
Edit and btw I do not have a single client trying this. My best (yield) grows all have P = K or higher. But if I don’t need that I suspect I can improve quality
Got any tips? I am curious my own self. Don’t mention the lab...I know
Ahh very interesting Jidoka! With the shade cloth I will be able to keep the watts fairly high while not frying the seedlings and early growth and keep the temps up.
I appreciate the base numbers, I will give those a go in the near future when I get everything set up and go from there. Thank you so much for the tips!
Would anyone happen to know the molar mass of Yara's Calcium nitrate? I've tried to look it up but I've come across a couple different formulas. The one that resembles the closest to the 19% Ca and 15.5% N is 5Ca (NO3)2·NH4NO3·10H2O which is 1080.71g/mol and the other is just Ca(NO3)2 which is ~164g/mol. But I think Yara's is actually CAN?
Happy holidays everyone!
I appreciate the base numbers, I will give those a go in the near future when I get everything set up and go from there. Thank you so much for the tips!
Would anyone happen to know the molar mass of Yara's Calcium nitrate? I've tried to look it up but I've come across a couple different formulas. The one that resembles the closest to the 19% Ca and 15.5% N is 5Ca (NO3)2·NH4NO3·10H2O which is 1080.71g/mol and the other is just Ca(NO3)2 which is ~164g/mol. But I think Yara's is actually CAN?
Happy holidays everyone!
Just to be clear, I assume the comma is not an error and it's .3 grams/gallon?
Brian had my mix at 3 grams/gallon but maybe that's based on my water?
