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The Lounge : Growers Round Table Discussion Thread
- Thread starter growingcrazy
- Start date
If those cec and om numbers are right it won’t rinse
Gotta use gypsum to drive down Na and raise Ca. That is why I asked about organic...my step 2 would be MAP along with 5% fulvic. Then the micros
M
moose eater
Still need to get unpacked to gather my wits, if I can find them.
The mix was being pursued as a primarily-water-only with some amount of a simple top-dressing to be done a couple times throughout the process.
Already using intermittent fulvic (Ful-Power) @ 10-20 ml/gallon of untreated well water (which still needs a thorough re-test, as the last well water test we did was ~20 years ago), about every other or third watering up until recently.
There's a fair bit of gypsum in there already, but going to boost the gypsum a bit more, as stated.
Noted that my gypsum states it has sulfates in it, and was wondering if this might be a source for/of the higher sulfur count?
There's already a fair bit of steamed bone meal in there, which is one of the slower-to-release sources of P in my experience, thus the differences between the water extraction test and the Mehlich III acid extraction.
I -do- have some soft rock phosphate here, but it and I aren't formally acquainted at this time; just had it on hand at one point when I was procuring things for a top-dressing that I never made.
I'll post the whole current mix in a lil' bit, to clear up any confusion.
This mix hasn't been brought to a finished harvest yet; still in reviewing and revamping phase, while pushing ahead with what needed planted. "The show must go on."
Taking what the report states, assuming it's MY sample they're looking at, and using that data (between the 2 tests) to decide what to add as balancing amendments to 'bring it home' to where it belongs/needs to be..
A previous, distantly related mix produced the Ghost Train Haze #1 pic that can be seen, and linked to for larger view, at my profile. Feel free to visit there.
The lab analysis posted there is from the mix that preceded this one, but came after the one that produced the GTH#1 pic. This mix was an adjusted effort, with the help of another member here, at getting closer to rock-n-roll.
Some of the numbers in the current analyses were screwy enough that (as stated earlier) I wondered if there had been a mix-up, a spill resulting in sharing of samples, or ?????????
For the H2O extraction test to state I had all of 1.9 ppm in P after the thing had sat, moist, for about a week or so, with numerous source of P in it, had me unnerved a bit. 'Irritated' might even be the word I was looking for.
But like said, the plants don't look haggard, the former mothers in bloom include a couple phenos of Goji OG, a 20-yr.-old reliable Sensi Seeds California Indica, Rare Dankness' GTH#1, Bomb Seeds' Widow Bomb, & Green House's Super Lemon Haze, and for the majority of them, the distances between bud sites, color, vigor, bud development (@ week 2.5), etc. are relatively acceptable; better with some than others, and the only one showing any notable stretch is the SLH, which is an easy keeper where N is concerned. The GTH#1 has its expected weak-kneed branches, but we keep her around for her productivity, class, and quality of stone.
As far as current pics, that would take some effort; I'm on 56k dial-up, which barely communicates with the modern world. The pics you can see in my profile were done by setting the computer on task, and going on to do chores, eat dinner, etc., to come back and find the task completed. No brief exercise in that regard.
The mix was being pursued as a primarily-water-only with some amount of a simple top-dressing to be done a couple times throughout the process.
Already using intermittent fulvic (Ful-Power) @ 10-20 ml/gallon of untreated well water (which still needs a thorough re-test, as the last well water test we did was ~20 years ago), about every other or third watering up until recently.
There's a fair bit of gypsum in there already, but going to boost the gypsum a bit more, as stated.
Noted that my gypsum states it has sulfates in it, and was wondering if this might be a source for/of the higher sulfur count?
There's already a fair bit of steamed bone meal in there, which is one of the slower-to-release sources of P in my experience, thus the differences between the water extraction test and the Mehlich III acid extraction.
I -do- have some soft rock phosphate here, but it and I aren't formally acquainted at this time; just had it on hand at one point when I was procuring things for a top-dressing that I never made.
I'll post the whole current mix in a lil' bit, to clear up any confusion.
This mix hasn't been brought to a finished harvest yet; still in reviewing and revamping phase, while pushing ahead with what needed planted. "The show must go on."
Taking what the report states, assuming it's MY sample they're looking at, and using that data (between the 2 tests) to decide what to add as balancing amendments to 'bring it home' to where it belongs/needs to be..
A previous, distantly related mix produced the Ghost Train Haze #1 pic that can be seen, and linked to for larger view, at my profile. Feel free to visit there.
The lab analysis posted there is from the mix that preceded this one, but came after the one that produced the GTH#1 pic. This mix was an adjusted effort, with the help of another member here, at getting closer to rock-n-roll.
Some of the numbers in the current analyses were screwy enough that (as stated earlier) I wondered if there had been a mix-up, a spill resulting in sharing of samples, or ?????????
For the H2O extraction test to state I had all of 1.9 ppm in P after the thing had sat, moist, for about a week or so, with numerous source of P in it, had me unnerved a bit. 'Irritated' might even be the word I was looking for.
But like said, the plants don't look haggard, the former mothers in bloom include a couple phenos of Goji OG, a 20-yr.-old reliable Sensi Seeds California Indica, Rare Dankness' GTH#1, Bomb Seeds' Widow Bomb, & Green House's Super Lemon Haze, and for the majority of them, the distances between bud sites, color, vigor, bud development (@ week 2.5), etc. are relatively acceptable; better with some than others, and the only one showing any notable stretch is the SLH, which is an easy keeper where N is concerned. The GTH#1 has its expected weak-kneed branches, but we keep her around for her productivity, class, and quality of stone.
As far as current pics, that would take some effort; I'm on 56k dial-up, which barely communicates with the modern world. The pics you can see in my profile were done by setting the computer on task, and going on to do chores, eat dinner, etc., to come back and find the task completed. No brief exercise in that regard.
M
moose eater
Jidoka, what is 'MAP'? Thanks in advance.
Mix list to follow soon.
Mix list to follow soon.
Ibechillin
Masochist Educator
MAP = monoammonium phosphate
Low N and high P
Low N and high P
M
moose eater
Current mix in question (Makes ~16.4 to 16.5 gallons of media):
10 cups Fishy Peat (local Alaska Peat w/Fish & Kelp product)
30 Cups Fox Farms Ocean Forest
30 Cups (High Quallity) Earth Worm Castings; 50:50 between Roots Organic and Wonder Worm (*See lab analyses for both products at my profile)
25 Cups perlite
15 Cups Vermiculite
25 Cups Pumice
20 Cups Rice Hulls
~8 Cups coarse Zeolite (~3/8" average in size)
105 Cups BX Pro-Mix
-----------------------------------
1-1/2 Cup Steamed Bone Meal 3-15-0 w/ 26% calcium
1 Cup 0-7-0 Bat Guano
1/3 Cup 0-11-0 Seabird Guano
1/3 Cup 3-10-1 DTE High P Bat Guano
1/3 Cup High P Indonesian Bat Guano @ 0.5-13-0.2
2 TBSP Alaska White Fish Bone Meal @ 6-10-0 w/ 20% calcium; no longer available, so making a mix of 2 other fish bone meal products that combined, come close to the original.
4 TBSP Blood Meal 11-0-0
2 TBSP DTE Alfalfa Meal
10 TBSP DTE high N Bat guano 9-3-1
11 TBSP DTE (or similar) Kelp Meal
2 TBSP Jersey Green Sand
7 TBSP Dolomite Lime
14 TBSP granular gypsum
7 TBSP garden lime @ 96% calcium and 1.5% Magnesium
12 TBSP DTE Oyster Shell Flour
1 TBSP Azomite
1.5 Cups Triple Fermented Bokashi Bran
2 Cups Alaska Humus
1 TBSP various Mycorrhizae (spelling?)
.7 (i.e. 7/10) grams Borax
10 grams Manganese Sulfate
1.6 grams Copper Sulfate
7 grams Zinc Sulfate
------------------------------------------
Hydrated with 2.75 gallons untreated well water with the following added to each gallon:
2 Drops Vitamin B Super Thrive
2 ml Pro-Tekt (though there's a fair amount of silica in the rice hulls)
2 ml Liquid Karma
6 ml Bio-Ag Ful-Power
.5 grams to 1 gram Mycostop -OR- 10 to 20 grams Prestop as prophylactic fungicide(s)
~.13 oz of Gnatrol WDG for killing any gnat larvae early in the game.
--------------------------------
On transplanting, a smattering of Great White is dusted at the base of the hole where the root ball will go.
------------------------------------
Yes, it's convoluted, but variety had always been the theme here in putting together mixes. Not just to afford a varied buffet to the plants, but to act preemptively on the notion that many organic amendments are not always as stated on the label, and over the years I've seen organic amendments change markedly, so by varying them, the chance that ONE amendment might slide this way or that was pretty good, but the chance that 2 or 3 of similar sort would simultaneously slide in quality or content was less likely.
Yes, I'm a bit eccentric, and rarely try to hide it anymore. ;^>)
Thanks in advance for your reviews and input!!
10 cups Fishy Peat (local Alaska Peat w/Fish & Kelp product)
30 Cups Fox Farms Ocean Forest
30 Cups (High Quallity) Earth Worm Castings; 50:50 between Roots Organic and Wonder Worm (*See lab analyses for both products at my profile)
25 Cups perlite
15 Cups Vermiculite
25 Cups Pumice
20 Cups Rice Hulls
~8 Cups coarse Zeolite (~3/8" average in size)
105 Cups BX Pro-Mix
-----------------------------------
1-1/2 Cup Steamed Bone Meal 3-15-0 w/ 26% calcium
1 Cup 0-7-0 Bat Guano
1/3 Cup 0-11-0 Seabird Guano
1/3 Cup 3-10-1 DTE High P Bat Guano
1/3 Cup High P Indonesian Bat Guano @ 0.5-13-0.2
2 TBSP Alaska White Fish Bone Meal @ 6-10-0 w/ 20% calcium; no longer available, so making a mix of 2 other fish bone meal products that combined, come close to the original.
4 TBSP Blood Meal 11-0-0
2 TBSP DTE Alfalfa Meal
10 TBSP DTE high N Bat guano 9-3-1
11 TBSP DTE (or similar) Kelp Meal
2 TBSP Jersey Green Sand
7 TBSP Dolomite Lime
14 TBSP granular gypsum
7 TBSP garden lime @ 96% calcium and 1.5% Magnesium
12 TBSP DTE Oyster Shell Flour
1 TBSP Azomite
1.5 Cups Triple Fermented Bokashi Bran
2 Cups Alaska Humus
1 TBSP various Mycorrhizae (spelling?)
.7 (i.e. 7/10) grams Borax
10 grams Manganese Sulfate
1.6 grams Copper Sulfate
7 grams Zinc Sulfate
------------------------------------------
Hydrated with 2.75 gallons untreated well water with the following added to each gallon:
2 Drops Vitamin B Super Thrive
2 ml Pro-Tekt (though there's a fair amount of silica in the rice hulls)
2 ml Liquid Karma
6 ml Bio-Ag Ful-Power
.5 grams to 1 gram Mycostop -OR- 10 to 20 grams Prestop as prophylactic fungicide(s)
~.13 oz of Gnatrol WDG for killing any gnat larvae early in the game.
--------------------------------
On transplanting, a smattering of Great White is dusted at the base of the hole where the root ball will go.
------------------------------------
Yes, it's convoluted, but variety had always been the theme here in putting together mixes. Not just to afford a varied buffet to the plants, but to act preemptively on the notion that many organic amendments are not always as stated on the label, and over the years I've seen organic amendments change markedly, so by varying them, the chance that ONE amendment might slide this way or that was pretty good, but the chance that 2 or 3 of similar sort would simultaneously slide in quality or content was less likely.
Yes, I'm a bit eccentric, and rarely try to hide it anymore. ;^>)
Thanks in advance for your reviews and input!!
You have more sodium than potassium. Won't be pretty.
M
moose eater
As stated, the current (former) mothers in bloom are looking pretty good at the moment.
Thus the question as to accuracy of the test.
Is there anything in the mix written above that stands out to you as being heavy in Na?
Can the increase in gypsum drive down/out the Na?
Thanks.
Thus the question as to accuracy of the test.
Is there anything in the mix written above that stands out to you as being heavy in Na?
Can the increase in gypsum drive down/out the Na?
Thanks.
M
moose eater
Another angle on the question posed.
That I know of, the most common source of salinity/sodium in this mix is Kelp Meal. There's less than 3/4 cup of kelp meal in the mix, directly, with unknown amounts in the small amount of Fishy Peat.
Logically, the fish meal can incorporate salt, as can the oyster shell flour, seabird guano, etc.. All of that is guess-work, however, in terms of identifying the culprit(s).
I doubt the scant amount of kelp meal is responsible for the high Na readings.
I can omit the Fishy Peat altogether, make up for the amount of Fishy Peat with more Pro Mix, and review other components for salinity, but I'm at a loss of ideas in that regard otherwise.
Looking at the amount of fairly stout P sources already in the mix, the P count has me confused. Again, I'm thinking a second sampling to the lab, or even a different lab might be in order, though that pushes me back by a 2-week period, minimum, not counting drying time for the sample(s).
The quickest address for now for the lower P and high salt content appears to be the gypsum increase, perhaps of a cup or cup and a half, maybe 2, and either the MAP (unfamiliar with this, and would need to locate it), or something closer to a product familiar to me, such as increasing the bat guano.
The only indicator in the plants' appearances currently in bloom that would have me question this, is the leaves are not as large as they might be if really happy, but they're otherwise going well overall.
Anyone see something I'm missing in the list of amendments that stands out as a salt culprit other than kelp meal, and the other lesser suspects referenced?
That I know of, the most common source of salinity/sodium in this mix is Kelp Meal. There's less than 3/4 cup of kelp meal in the mix, directly, with unknown amounts in the small amount of Fishy Peat.
Logically, the fish meal can incorporate salt, as can the oyster shell flour, seabird guano, etc.. All of that is guess-work, however, in terms of identifying the culprit(s).
I doubt the scant amount of kelp meal is responsible for the high Na readings.
I can omit the Fishy Peat altogether, make up for the amount of Fishy Peat with more Pro Mix, and review other components for salinity, but I'm at a loss of ideas in that regard otherwise.
Looking at the amount of fairly stout P sources already in the mix, the P count has me confused. Again, I'm thinking a second sampling to the lab, or even a different lab might be in order, though that pushes me back by a 2-week period, minimum, not counting drying time for the sample(s).
The quickest address for now for the lower P and high salt content appears to be the gypsum increase, perhaps of a cup or cup and a half, maybe 2, and either the MAP (unfamiliar with this, and would need to locate it), or something closer to a product familiar to me, such as increasing the bat guano.
The only indicator in the plants' appearances currently in bloom that would have me question this, is the leaves are not as large as they might be if really happy, but they're otherwise going well overall.
Anyone see something I'm missing in the list of amendments that stands out as a salt culprit other than kelp meal, and the other lesser suspects referenced?
jackspratt61
Active member
At 1.8 ec and high N with high sodium, "burn" will be a concern.
Definitely needs to be rinsed but will not be easy if reported cec and om are true.
I have rinsed these by creating a slurry and adding proper amounts of gypsum. 1meq pushes 1 meq.
Side note: for those needing more Ca without ph rise...I have been using a product labeled Encap. 40% calcium coated with polymer that doesn't allow large ph swings. Have used as much as 650grams per ft3 (experimental only)... ph shift negligible...seems a good tool so far!
paradoxlost
Member
What kind of polymer are you comfortable putting into something that you will consume?
M
moose eater
In my reading on the web last night, I found 2 relevant areas of discussion; the first involved lowering Na via gypsum (which I happen to have a 50-lb. bag of on hand).
The other involved zeolite, and was a study from Iran. Didn't catch the date.
https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/f389/de283fb935f6b91c19b4f135833b336a9c3c.pdf
The down-side of the Iranian-sourced approach to this or similar issues, using zeolite (which I also have a bunch of, though the newer supply is not the 3/8" coarse, but rather granular), is that the zeolite tends to lower nearly EVERYTHING mineral or heavy metal, from what I can tell, and is proportional in effect to the amounts applied. They used very detailed graphs, and applied 5%, 10% and 15% of total applications.
And as Slow has pointed out in the past, the zeolite is stout in aluminum.
Additionally, I located sources for the MAP and some Super Phosphate.
Would the 0-45-0 SP be a better bet than the MAP, due to the MAP being a value of 11-12 on N, despite the 61-62 on P, thus avoiding any additional surge in N in a bloom soil?
The other involved zeolite, and was a study from Iran. Didn't catch the date.
https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/f389/de283fb935f6b91c19b4f135833b336a9c3c.pdf
The down-side of the Iranian-sourced approach to this or similar issues, using zeolite (which I also have a bunch of, though the newer supply is not the 3/8" coarse, but rather granular), is that the zeolite tends to lower nearly EVERYTHING mineral or heavy metal, from what I can tell, and is proportional in effect to the amounts applied. They used very detailed graphs, and applied 5%, 10% and 15% of total applications.
And as Slow has pointed out in the past, the zeolite is stout in aluminum.
Additionally, I located sources for the MAP and some Super Phosphate.
Would the 0-45-0 SP be a better bet than the MAP, due to the MAP being a value of 11-12 on N, despite the 61-62 on P, thus avoiding any additional surge in N in a bloom soil?
M
moose eater
Right now I'm seeing no burn in the former mothers that have been in this mix for going on 5 weeks, with them being on 12:12 for just over 2.5. I'll try to get someone with a smart phone and ID erased to take a pic, then down-size the file/pixel count, and try to post, either through their device, or from this Edsel of a connection I have.
It's possible that the bit of zeolite I used is already actively buffering the Na content to permit the growth I'm seeing?
Otherwise, per your input quoted below (which I meant to say thank you for, btw), it appears that if I can figure out what amount of gypsum per 16.5 gallons (2+ cubic ft) is needed to successfully lower my Na to a more livable level, I can follow that path?
The former mothers are currently getting watered about every 3rd day, with more than suitable run-off, and typically nothing but water with a 1/32 of a tsp of citric acid granules added to slightly lower ph. Thus they're being slowly leeched in that process, and are, indeed improving over short period. Or so it 'appears.'
It's possible that the bit of zeolite I used is already actively buffering the Na content to permit the growth I'm seeing?
Otherwise, per your input quoted below (which I meant to say thank you for, btw), it appears that if I can figure out what amount of gypsum per 16.5 gallons (2+ cubic ft) is needed to successfully lower my Na to a more livable level, I can follow that path?
The former mothers are currently getting watered about every 3rd day, with more than suitable run-off, and typically nothing but water with a 1/32 of a tsp of citric acid granules added to slightly lower ph. Thus they're being slowly leeched in that process, and are, indeed improving over short period. Or so it 'appears.'
M
moose eater
You tend to be far more brief than myself in description of thoughts, Jidoka. Are you now saying to hold back from immediately using the gypsum, and instead rely primarily for now on leaching?
If so, I left a comment above to Jack re. current watering regimen, using about 1-1/3 qts+ into the Classic 2000s (~ every 3rd day or slightly less), and a bit under or about a 1/4 of that amount into the 5"x5"x6.5" sq. pots the up-and-coming Goji's are currently in.
In the interim, foliar spray with the Budswell with amino acids would avoid further cluttering of the soil, while raising the P intake a bit each time, though the Budswell runs 1/10 the score in N and K it does in P.
Thanks.
If so, I left a comment above to Jack re. current watering regimen, using about 1-1/3 qts+ into the Classic 2000s (~ every 3rd day or slightly less), and a bit under or about a 1/4 of that amount into the 5"x5"x6.5" sq. pots the up-and-coming Goji's are currently in.
In the interim, foliar spray with the Budswell with amino acids would avoid further cluttering of the soil, while raising the P intake a bit each time, though the Budswell runs 1/10 the score in N and K it does in P.
Thanks.
Kelp meal is the culprit. Don't use zeolite either.
The Na won't appear to be a problem unless it is really hot in veg. The Na is being used as a building block instead of K. Will affect yield and quality.
How good a job did you do taking this sample? How deep did you go? How shallow did you go? Did you screen the sample?
For the extra $5 you should have gotten the AA@8.2 procedure done as I doubt all that Ca you are showing is really available. When folks add things like bone meal, shell meal, etc.. this Ca doesn't count for a long time, even in an "acid" environment.
M
moose eater
The sample was from a tote, taken from a 2-3 inch depth, while holding about <30 gallons of the mix.
It had been kept damp enough to activate the critters, but not so wet as to sponsor mold unless left sitting and untended for way too long.
The mix itself was processed via a larger portable cement mixer, and tumbled thoroughly dry, then wetted, and tumbled thoroughly again, then dumped first into a kiddie pool, then moved into the <30 gallon tote.
I would've thought that the amount of turning by hand and shovel in each process, and the amount of 'spin' it received at each phase, that the sample would've been reasonably representative of the contents.
It was gathered damp, then delivered to the soil folks who act as local middle-persons for the lab. At the soil office it was air-dried with gentle to moderate air movement (for which I questioned whether lighter particulates aren't sometimes displaced), then screened (I believe), and sent to the lab from there.
This sample sat in their tray for about 10+ days.
It had been kept damp enough to activate the critters, but not so wet as to sponsor mold unless left sitting and untended for way too long.
The mix itself was processed via a larger portable cement mixer, and tumbled thoroughly dry, then wetted, and tumbled thoroughly again, then dumped first into a kiddie pool, then moved into the <30 gallon tote.
I would've thought that the amount of turning by hand and shovel in each process, and the amount of 'spin' it received at each phase, that the sample would've been reasonably representative of the contents.
It was gathered damp, then delivered to the soil folks who act as local middle-persons for the lab. At the soil office it was air-dried with gentle to moderate air movement (for which I questioned whether lighter particulates aren't sometimes displaced), then screened (I believe), and sent to the lab from there.
This sample sat in their tray for about 10+ days.
M
moose eater
Meant to add that the larger/coarse zeolite had been used at about 8 cups per batch, as a buffer, aeration, etc. The newer batch being granular, and therefore more available, the intent had been to shift its presence down to <4 cups/batch, again, for the buffering and aeration it's known to offer..
M
moose eater
Not in the sense of it being recycled as potting soil.
It's applied in progressively larger pots through the life cycle of a given 'round' of cannabis, then it's typically discarded into small mounds throughout a large-ish spud field, and tilled in, where the soil grows some AWESOME, high-grade, rich, spuds.
*Note: Just visited the former-mothers in bloom, and a couple of them appear to have taken mild offense at the foliar spray with aminos last evening; specifically the GTH#1 and SLH, neither of which like too much N in bloom, or at all. Both show mildly discolored pistils, having briefly(??) departed from the previously snow-white pistils they sported pre-foliar spray.
Likely I'd have been better off sticking to a lighter dose of the Budswell with aminos, and leaving the Fish Hydrolysate behind for that phase.. Or less of both, maybe.
It's applied in progressively larger pots through the life cycle of a given 'round' of cannabis, then it's typically discarded into small mounds throughout a large-ish spud field, and tilled in, where the soil grows some AWESOME, high-grade, rich, spuds.
*Note: Just visited the former-mothers in bloom, and a couple of them appear to have taken mild offense at the foliar spray with aminos last evening; specifically the GTH#1 and SLH, neither of which like too much N in bloom, or at all. Both show mildly discolored pistils, having briefly(??) departed from the previously snow-white pistils they sported pre-foliar spray.
Likely I'd have been better off sticking to a lighter dose of the Budswell with aminos, and leaving the Fish Hydrolysate behind for that phase.. Or less of both, maybe.
