*The K.I.S.S. Method*

[Unicorniclops]

This post is a follow up to my previous on this thread regarding the KISS method and nitrogen deficiencies when using high-wattage LED lights. What I've found to be successful through trial and error is the following:

Maxibloom: 6 gm/gal.
Fertilome acid loving 31-11-11: 3 gm/gal.

This balances to the theoretical fertilizer ratio to 13-14-13.

At first this might seem like a lot of overall nutes per gallon, but since the Fertilome is 31% nitrogen! that's mostly what your adding in to balance out the overall ratio. Fwiw I run in coco and adjust the input nute water to a pH of 5.7. The Fertilome doesn't seem to affect the pH of my water compared to when I ran straight 7 gm/gal. Maxi.

I also add 15 drops of Concentrace per gal of water because I'm a firm believer in biological systems requiring trace minerals as building blocks to be able to complete their enzyme profile. This is available at stores like Natural Grocer here in Colorado.

Take it for what it's worth. I've been running this now for a few weeks and have cured all of the nitrogen issues with my grow. If you are having similar problems, you may want to give it a shot.

 

[sidewing]

there's more to the balance of nutrients than NPK. did you add up the totals of Calcium (Ca), Magnesium (Mg), Sulfur (S) for both products? what were the total percentages?

also you need to be careful with the other additives like concentrace because it's a product made for human consumption (at least from what i can see from a quick google search). doesn't mean the plant can use it. and even so, doesn't mean it's usable in a hydro setting. soil has microbes to break stuff down that hydro doesn't necessarily have in all settings.

trace minerals are good, but they have to be in the correct dose otherwise it's a misbalance which causes uptake problems of other trace elements and sometimes macro elements. also that product is a little redundant, it does offer a couple of things extra (that research has shown is not necessarily required in hydro).. but the other stuff is already included in maxibloom, and probably the other product, fertilome.

just remember when you start adding random stuff in you couple be disrupting the balance of things.. look at the mulders chart i posted above..

heres some figures of PPM's that should be shot for, and ratio's as well so you can be sure you're in the ideal range:

Element Range in PPM for Nutrient Solution

N 100 - 450
P 10 - 100
K 100 - 650
Mg 10 - 95
Ca 70 - 300
S 20 - 250
Fe 0.5 - 6
Mn 0.3 - 4
B 0.1 - 0.8
Zn 0.1 - 0.5
Cu 0.05 - 0.1
Mo 0.02 - 0.07

and the ratio's as they relate to one another:

N: P 3 - 8
N:K 0.25 - 1.5
Ca:N 0.8 - 1.2
Mg:N 0.1 - 0.4
P:S 0.6 - 1

if it's working for you, then don't fix it. but the information provided here is just to educate that more is not always better.. just because something is good doesn't mean its provided in the proper form/availability, and it might throw things off balance.

also remember that a percentage isn't a PPM value.

but you have to remember that there's different sources, and depending on how you're growing, some are more soluble than others.. so soil vs hydro comes into factor also. in hydro everything should be soluble and immediately available.. in soil sometimes things need to be broken down by soil microbes/bacteria before becoming available.. but once broken down its the same thing as far as the plant is concerned.

you can convert percentages into ppm's of course, but its complicated.. for example:

Percent is the same as parts per hundred. 5 parts per hundred is equivalent to 50,000 parts per million.

5/100=0.05
50,000/1,000,000=0.05

or 5%


So P or P2O5, when we look at the molecular weights for phosphorus and oxygen, we can calculate that phosphorus is approx. 44% of the P2O5 molecule. So if a fertilizer is labeled as being 15% P2O5 we can calculate that they mean it is 6.6% phosphorus.

15 x 0.44= 6.6

so technically, P is 43.6% of what is labeled.
K is 83% of what is labeled.

 

[Unicorniclops]

That's great info, thanks. I'll keep an eye out for any other signs of nutritional deficiencies, but so far so good. Keep in mind I'm still using 85% of the original KISS formula. The extra 3 gm/gallon Fertilome in my formula is for the nitrogen only. I tried the above with 2 gm/gal of Fertilome for a while and that still wasn't enough N for my situation.

I haven't seen a guaranteed analysis of levels of all the elements contained in Maxibloom, have you?

FYI Concentrace is a totally ionic solution of trace minerals (great salt lake sea water with all of the salt removed)... Much of what it provides you won't find on conventional fertilizer tables...

Aluminum, Antimony, Arsenic (Inorganic), Barium, Beryllium, Bismuth, Boron, Bromide, Cadmium, Calcium, Carbonate, Cerium, Cesium, Chloride, Chromium, Cobalt, Copper, Dysprosium, Erbium, Europium, Fluoride, Gadolinium, Gallium, Germanium, Gold, Hafnium, Holmium, Indium, Iodine, Iridium, Iron, Lanthanum, Lead, Lithium, Lutetium, Magnesium, Manganese, Mercury, Molybdenum, Neodymium, Nickel, Niobium, Osmium, Palladium, Phosphorus, Platinum, Potassium, Praseodymium, Rhenium, Rhodium, Rubidium, Ruthenium, Samarium, Scandium, Selenium, Silicon, Silver, Sodium, Strontium, Sulfate/Sulfur, Tantalum, Tellurium, Terbium ,Thallium, Thorium, Thulium, Tin, Titanium, Tungsten, Vanadium, Ytterbium, Yttrium, Zinc, Zirconium, etc.

It does also give a slight boost of Mg, but probably doesn't amount to much at the 15 drops/gal. I'm using. I don't want to get into the benefits of trace minerals because there's plenty of info on it elsewhere but I will say this: it's been shown that plants normally absorb trace minerals from the soil, which means they probably means they also use those trace minerals to perform one biological function or another. But trace minerals should only be present in trace quantities... we're talking ppb levels instead of ppm.

Again all good info, food for thought.

 

[sidewing]

seems like a pretty diverse amount of trace minerals. i know in soil the best additive very similar is azomite. might be worth experimenting with it (concentrace) in hydro.. i always wondered what the extra 'unnecessary' trace minerals that someone decided wasnt necessary would do if in a hydro setting. only thing is i cant find any solid proof that azomite is soluble.. i wish it was cause i have a 50lb bag of the stuff

only info i have is off the label of maxibloom.. its not a ppm breakdown, just a percentage. it can be converted but i don't have any interested in doing the math. but its not a breakdown of the trace minerals, just the 6 macros.. but you can see from the 'derived from' list that the trace minerals deemed necessary in hydro are there.

me personally i think in hydro you need to be using all chelated trace minerals (edta and dtpa) and not sulfates.. but maxi covers the extremely important ones such as iron.

when mixing my own salts, initially i was using a premix that used iron sulfate.. and i had a major iron deficiency during the stretch. then i came across this info:

Iron Sulfate (20% Fe): No longer widely used in hydroponics due to its instability in solution. In nutrient solutions iron

sulfate tends to form iron hydroxides which are insoluble.

MaxiBloom (5-15-14) for comparison:

Nitrogen: 5%
- 0.5% Ammoniacal Nitrogen
- 4.5% Nitrate Nitrogen

Available Phosphate (P2O5): 15%

Soluble Potash (K2O): 14%

CA: 5%

water soluble Mg: 3.5%

Sulfur: 4%

Iron: 0.1%

Derived from: Ammonium Molybdate, Ammonium Nitrate, Calcium Nitrate, Calcium Sulfate, Copper Sulfate, Iron DTPA, Iron EDTA, Magnesium Sulfate, Manganese Sulfate, Monopotassium Phosphate, Potassium Borate, Potassium Nitrate, Potassium Sulfate, and Zinc Sulfate

here's maxigrow for argument sake.. im my opinion it's more simple to just use half maxibloom half maxigrow if you're having yellowing.. but anything that works is fine.

maxigrow (10-5-14) is a pretty complete one part powder with the exception of silica. here's the percentages according to the bag i have:
Total Nitrogen: 10%
- Ammoniacal Nitrogen: 1.5%
- Nitrate Nitrogen: 8.5%

Phosphate (P2O5): 5%

Soluble Potash (K2O): 14%

Calcium (CA): 6%

Water Soluble Magnesium: 2%

Combined Sulfur: 3%

Chelated Iron (Fe): 0.12%

Chelated Manganese (Mn): 0.05%

Derived from: Ammonium Molybdate, Ammonium Nitrate, Calcium Nitrate, Calcium Sulfate, Copper Sulfate, Iron DPTA, Magnesium Sulfate, Manganese EDTA, Monopotassium Phosphate, Potassium Borate, Potassium Nitrate and Zinc Sulfate.

 

[Unicorniclops]

Very informative, sidewing. I'll try 50:50 bloom and grow if this doesn't work for some reason, but right now they are growing like bats out of hell and seem to love it. These girls are super hungry for N. Not sure if a blend of 5 and 10% is going to be enough for them. Only downside to Fertilome so far is presumably all of the extra urea has caused a bacterial explosion in my reservoir and plugged up my blumat hoses, even with some bleach in there.

Fertilome only lists monoammonium phosphate, potassium nitrate, urea, and ferrous sulfate as ingredients on the label. They make no claims about any other elements.

 

[sidewing]

Urea is strongly recommend against in hydro fyi. Typically it needs bacteria to break it down to become available.. Also using it later in flower has shown to make your bud smell like piss.. And it's really hard to flush out of the bud. So stop using it like a good month before harvest if at all. Ammonia nitrate is same fyi, try to limit, it can leave the chemical taste residue.. Nitrate is the best and leaves no residual and extremely easy to flush if that's your thing. Calcium nitrate for example.

I stated earlIer in the thread I had really good success running maxigrow for first 3 weeks of flower alone.. Then switching to maxibloom after the stretch when nitrogen demand was much lower.

Everyone has their way, that's what I liked.

 

[Unicorniclops]

Nice info to know, thanks again. I just switched over to flower yesterday, actually. I'll start tapering off the extra N. Pissy buds would be a real bummer.

 

[Unicorniclops]

Also, the iron sulfate info you listed is interesting, since that's one of the ingredients in Fertilome. Maybe the grayish solids I'm seeing in my reservoir and plugging my lines aren't bacteria at all, but precipitated iron hydroxide. They seem to be forming at the nozzle points (where the Nutes exit the reservoir)

Also since I'm boosting the amount of Fe in my blend, it looks like I should keep an eye out for Mn and Cu deficiancies too, according to the graphic that you posted.

 

[Unicorniclops]

sorry for delayed response i was on a nice vacation.. and now i have a cold lol. but at least i enjoyed myself.

i think people run higher EC of maxibloom in veg because there's less nitrogen. so you have to feed more to get it to a level where the plant wont yellow. the extra P the plant doesnt need, so it sits there (in my case because im DWC not COCO). 0.9-1.2ec of maxiGROW in veg is fine, i use it for the month that i veg from the time my first root tip touches the water. and i keep the level the same all through veg. never any yellowing, never any issues. robust thick healthy plants. i believe i had yellowing when i used maxibloom in veg, just didnt work for me.

in flower, im convinced that just maxigrow ALONE will grow great buds. crazy high p/k boost is a myth. whole other topic and nobody trying to hear that. FOR ME. if i use maxibloom before the stretch is over, my plants will yellow. not enough nitrogen for the exposive growth they experience from moving from a t5 fixture in veg to a 1k hps in flower. so i run straight maxiGROW at 1.7ec (higher now because i have more light and they can eat more) for the first 4 weeks of flower. just top off the res, i dont drain and refill anymore. at the start of the 5th week, i drain the res, and switch to maxiBLOOM at 1.7ec. the plant doesnt need as much nitrogen, and usually the 5th week is when most people would introduce a P/K boost product such as PK 13/14 or whatever. so i just switch to the flowering nutrient at this time. nothing crazy. plants stay green, buds CONTINUE to fill out nicely (like they were already doing with maxigrow alone).. i dont drain the res, just top off keeping the EC at 1.7.. until day 49. then i top off to 1.7ec one last time, and from that point on i top off with water only. letting the EC taper down as low as it wants to go over the next 2 weeks. creating a nice healthy stress free fade as the plant finishes its life and the demand for nutrients lowers. on day 63, i empty the res one last time, and fill with plain RO only. and run it for a week. harvest on day 70.

thats my DWC method. its simple and it works great. i dont weigh anything. i use a single small scoop provided in the bag per gallon. with maxibloom it works out to 1.6-1.7ec. maxigrow is a little stronger, so a scoop works out to about 1.9-2.0ec. so in veg i use 3 scoops per 5 gallons to get 1.2ec. in flower i use 9 scoops per 10 gallons to get 1.7ec.. maxibloom is straight forward, 10 scoops to 10 gallons. ec doesnt have to be precise, just in the ballpark. ill let it move around a couple decimal places. doesnt really matter. people need to stop being so precise. if the ec is lower than 1.5 for me, i add a scoop straight into the res. i dont bother checking ec after. i dont bother checking PH after because i know where its at approximately because its stable and dialed in for me.

i dont know how COCO differs, but dwc works for me. anyone running DWC i highly recommend running compost tea to keep healthy bacteria in your res and prevent any root issues. i keep my res at 75 degrees now (cuz AC costs are killing me) and i add a gallon of fresh brewed tea once a week. roots are white as can be. plants are as green as can be. i only go into the room 3 times a week now. once on a saturday to start the tea brewing. once on a monday to dump the tea in and top off EC levels. (i know how much i need to add because for every 2 gallons of water i have to add back, i need 1 scoop of nutrients.. just how it works for me). and once on a thursday to top off again if needed. easy as pie.

Ok. I dragged this one to the end cause it's hard to wade through 400+ pages of forum thread . Is this still what you're currently using? Looks like the yellowing you described is the same problem I've been trying to correct. So maybe the solution is here in your words.

 

[sidewing]

Not really sure what's causing the yellowing honestly. Now, versus then, I think it could very well be an iron uptake issue, caused by high p levels during a critical stage of adding a massive amount of foliage (the stretch).. If it was a nitrogen deficiency usually nitrogen shows on lower and middle growth first. Mine was on new growth first.

Adding more N might help fix the ratio misbalance and help unclog the pathway for the iron.

The high p is not necessary in hydro especially.

The reason the high p is happening is because typical sources of p are from mined rock and need to be broken down over the year.. The guaranteed analysis of p for example is how much would be available over the course of a year. Not immediately, and then you only really have the 44 percent on top of that fact. So in soil that's why they really bump up the levels.. It has to last through the season typically.

In hydro using salts that are fully soluble and immediately available we don't have those issues. Also, most are changing their res weekly..

The plant does have different needs in flower, but the purpose and design of bloom nutrients is to keep the res with enough of a nutrient as long as possible.. So you can go longer in between changing reservoirs without seeing a deficiency.

Which is why using a grow formula in flower typically is fine, there's enough of what the plant needs to last through the week until the res change.

But just remember to look at the sources, urea needs to be broken down to ammonia, then broken down to nitrate before the plant uses it.

Anyway, off topic from the kiss.. Simply my opinion is to run maxigrow first 1 to 3 weeks of flower, it fixed everything for me.. Then straight maxibloom to the finish line.. No flush necessary in my opinion. Everyone has their own on that.

 

[Unicorniclops]

Ok. A few of my leaves are showing the slightest signs of Mn deficiency. Better to nip it in the bud now than wait until half the plant is in trouble. I'll use the maxigrow for 3 weeks and then switch to MB.

 

[sidewing]

Just remember that maxigrow is a little stronger ec level per scoop. I found it to be about 1.9ec per tsp in a gallon of ro water. Where maxibloom is 1.6 or 1.7.. So in 10 gallons I'd only use 9tsp of maxigrow, but 10tsp of maxibloom to get the same ec. Also maxibloom is more acidic. I needed to use ph up.. Where maxigrow I needed ph down. Just be aware of the subtle differences, they aren't an exact replace one with the other.

 

[Unicorniclops]

Got it. I have never had the need to use pH up with my tap water here. For me it's 20 drops per gallon pH down with maxibloom and it's looking like about double that for maxigrow to hit 5.7 pH. Colorado tap water has a pretty high pH though, around 9, and it is very un-hard, like 25 ppm and that's it.

I've got some new clones started, so I should be using maxigrow much more dilute with them, right? By your posts above I calculated 4.2 gm/gal maxigrow for veg and 6.3 gm/gal maxigrow for the first three weeks of flower.

 

[sidewing]

Doesn't need to be exactly precise, I just ballpark it, but if you want to weigh it that's fine.. Under t5s I keep the ec level at anywhere from 1.0 to 1.3 in veg as soon as clone roots hit the water. And keep it there all through veg (5 weeks)

Then in flower under a 1k I run 1.5 to 1.8ec of both.. Doesn't need to be precise. I just use the level scoop in the bag

 

[nukklehead]

Doesn't need to be exactly precise, I just ballpark it, but if you want to weigh it that's fine.. Under t5s I keep the ec level at anywhere from 1.0 to 1.3 in veg as soon as clone roots hit the water. And keep it there all through veg (5 weeks)

Then in flower under a 1k I run 1.5 to 1.8ec of both.. Doesn't need to be precise. I just use the level scoop in the bag

thats the way to keep it KISS>. tx sidewing...

 

[apeshot]

Hi all, apologies if this has been discussed already (and I know it has to some extent) but I have some questions about the addition of powdered Koolbloom, specifically to a SOIL mix. I'd like to know:

- When is everyone adding the Koolbloom?
- How much Koolbloom to use?

I have seen some information on adding it to coco, but I wasn't sure if the time to add it to soil would be different, due to the fact that soil will get a lot less waterings than coco.

That is, if I add it from Week 5 - Week 7 of flower in a soil grow (is that when to add it?), and I am only watering say once or twice a week, then the plants are only getting fed with KB a couple of times, as opposed to many more times in coco.

Couple that with the fact that the dosage recommended for nutrients in soil is only about 1/3 or 1/4 of that of coco, and it seems like such a small amount to me, I don't know what difference it would make.

I'm using Canna Terra Professional which is similar to Promix (one can't buy Promix in the country where I am). It's peat based with some perlite and EWC.

 

[audiohi]

I'm sure everyone has seen it, but here is the GH feeding schedule. It's very close to what keeps being said here. Slightly less then 1 tsp per gallon and even a slight mix of gro and bloom for the transition. Then straight k.i.s.s. from there. And you can even add more supplements if you choose. The formula seems pretty straight forward really.

View Image

Here's GH's feeding schedule posted a few pages back. That should give you an idea of where to start

 

[sidewing]

The general idea is the instructions on the label are a once per week feeding. So in hydro you fill a res once a week. In soil you give a full strength dose once a week. Typically cutting back strength of maxibloom when you use koolbloom. Maybe half strength maxi, full strength kool. (Assuming your talking about powder).

 

[DoDad]

This is really strange. One tsp per gallon usually reads 650ish ppm. Last night it was 850ish. Thinking it was ok, I went ahead and fed.

This morning my plants look a bit wilty.

This happened on both the hempy pots and the DWC. Both show wilting leaves.

These plants are 2 feet tall and have been taking 1 tsp just fine at 650ish PPM

I also added 5 drops per gallon of bleach trying to kill off some algae in both the DWC and the top feed hempy buckets. This was after the 850ish PPM reading, so that didn't account for the increase in PPM.

The tap had not changed, I checked that.

I've actually seen this for a while now and feeding before last, I diluted it to 650ish PPM when I saw it was reading higher than normal.

I don't think 5 drops per gallon of bleach caused my wilting leaves but I'm open to changing my mind.

Tap hasn't changed
Same batch of MB
Same 1 tsp for measurement

200 PPM difference from when I started until now.

 

[DoDad]

I put some light on them and they perked right up. The lights had been off all night right after that water change.