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The insecurity of ignorance

Grat3fulh3ad

The Voice of Reason
Veteran
because CO2 driven climate change is irrefutable and verifiable.

The Big Picture

Oftentimes we get bogged down discussing one of the many pieces of evidence behind man-made global warming, and in the process we can't see the forest for the trees. It's important to every so often take a step back and see how all of those trees comprise the forest as a whole. Skeptical Science provides an invaluable resource for examining each individual piece of climate evidence, so let's make use of these individual pieces to see how they form the big picture.

The Earth is warming
We know the planet is warming from surface temperature stations and satellites measuring the temperature of the Earth's surface and lower atmosphere. We also have various tools which have measured the warming of the Earth's oceans. Satellites have measured an energy imbalance at the top of the Earth's atmosphere. Glaciers, sea ice, and ice sheets are all receding. Sea levels are rising. Spring is arriving sooner each year. There's simply no doubt - the planet is warming.

And yes, the warming is continuing. The 2000s were hotter than the 1990s, which were hotter than the 1980s, which were hotter than the 1970s. 2010 is on pace to be at least in the top 3 hottest calendar years on record. In fact, the 12-month running average global temperature broke the record 3 times in 2010, according to NASA GISS data. Sea levels are still rising, ice is still receding, spring is still coming earlier, there's still a planetary energy imbalance, etc. etc. Contrary to what some would like us to believe, the planet has not magically stopped warming.

Humans are causing this warming
There is overwhelming evidence that humans are the dominant cause of this warming, mainly due to our greenhouse gas emissions. Based on fundamental physics and math, we can quantify the amount of warming human activity is causing, and verify that we're responsible for essentially all of the global warming over the past 3 decades. In fact we expect human greenhouse gas emissions to cause more warming than we've thus far seen, due to the thermal inertia of the oceans (the time it takes to heat them). Human aerosol emissions are also offsetting a significant amount of the warming by causing global dimming.

There are numerous 'fingerprints' which we would expect to see from an increased greenhouse effect (i.e. more warming at night, at higher latitudes, upper atmosphere cooling) that we have indeed observed. Climate models have projected the ensuing global warming to a high level of accuracy, verifying that we have a good understanding of the fundamental physics behind climate change.

Sometimes people ask "what would it take to falsify the man-made global warming theory?". Well, basically it would require that our fundamental understanding of physics be wrong, because that's what the theory is based on.

The warming will continue
We also know that if we continue to emit large amounts of greenhouse gases, the planet will continue to warm. We know that the climate sensitivity to a doubling of atmospheric CO2 from the pre-industrial level of 280 parts per million by volume (ppmv) to 560 ppmv (we're currently at 390 ppmv) will cause 2–4.5°C of warming. And we're headed for 560 ppmv in the mid-to-late 21st century if we continue business-as-usual emissions.

The net result will be bad
There will be some positive results of this continued warming. For example, an open Northwest Passage, enhanced growth for some plants and improved agriculture at high latitudes (though this will require use of more fertilizers), etc. However, the negatives will almost certainly outweigh the positives, by a long shot. We're talking decreased biodiversity, water shortages, increasing heat waves (both in frequency and intensity), decreased crop yields due to these impacts, damage to infrastructure, displacement of millions of people, etc.

Arguments to the contrary are superficial
One thing I've found in reading skeptic criticisms of climate science is that they're consistently superficial. For example, the criticisms of James Hansen's 1988 global warming projections never go beyond "he was wrong", when in reality it's important to evaluate what caused the discrepancy between his projections and actual climate changes, and what we can learn from this. And those who argue that "it's the Sun" fail to comprehend that we understand the major mechanisms by which the Sun influences the global climate, and that they cannot explain the current global warming trend. And those who argue "it's just a natural cycle" can never seem to identify exactly which natural cycle can explain the current warming, nor can they explain how our understanding of the fundamental climate physics is wrong.

There are legitimate unresolved questions
Much ado is made out of the expression "the science is settled." My personal opinion is that the science is settled in terms of knowing that the planet is warming dangerously rapidly, and that humans are the dominant cause.

There are certainly unresolved issues. There's a big difference between a 2°C and a 4.5°C warming for a doubling of atmospheric CO2, and it's an important question to resolve, because we need to know how fast the planet will warm in order to know how fast we need to reduce our greenhouse gas emissions. There are significant uncertainties in some feedbacks which play into this question. For example, will clouds act as a net positive feedback (by trapping more heat, causing more warming) or negative feedback (by reflecting more sunlight, causing a cooling effect) as the planet continues to warm?

These are the sorts of questions we should be debating, and the issues that most climate scientists are investigating. Unfortunately there is a large segment of the population which is determined to continue arguing the resolved questions for which the science has already been settled. And when climate scientists are forced to respond to the constant propagation of misinformation on these settled issues, it just detracts from our investigation of the legitimate, unresolved, important questions.

The Big Picture
The big picture is that we know the planet is warming, humans are causing it, there is a substantial risk to continuing on our current path, but we don't know exactly how large the risk is. However, uncertainty regarding the magnitude of the risk is not an excuse to ignore it. We also know that if we continue on a business-as-usual path, the risk of catastrophic consequences is very high. In fact, the larger the uncertainty, the greater the potential for the exceptionally high risk scenario to become reality. We need to continue to decrease the uncertainty, but it's also critical to acknowledge what we know and what questions have been resolved, and that taking no action is not an option.
 

sac beh

Member
How can you be so right here...and so wrong in the "climate change" thread??? :)

I don't understand. My position is the same. Consensus among the scientific community and evidence is the best guide for beliefs about the world and the most effective actions to take.

You're still basing your fear of professionals, scientists, governments, etc. on hearsay and a general dislike of people with titles rather than the facts.
 

sac beh

Member
Could this have something to do with it?

American students continue to perform poorly in math and science compared to their counterparts abroad, they said. Though the United States is still a leader in innovation and produces a disproportionate share of the world's wealth, other countries such as China are investing heavily in research and education and, according to the new report, threatening America's competitiveness.
...
The new report again stressed the importance of education. Though most of the world's top universities are located in the United States, the World Economic Forum ranks the U.S. 48th in math and science education. American test scores in these subjects have changed little over the last 40 years. Nearly one-third of American adults don't know how long it takes the Earth to revolve around the Sun, according to the National Science Board.


http://www.physorg.com/news204569793.html
 

maryj315

Member
How can you be so right here...and so wrong in the "climate change" thread???

We ALL have a lot of beliefs that aren't correct...because we're lied to daily...all day...by professionals. They're called marketers.

, people LOVE to quote scientists and experts that agree...but loath those who don't. We're funny little animals...

I try to be like this...open minded in EVERYTHING. Unfortunately, there are things we can't openly discuss, so our ignorance marches on.

Let me get this straight you do not heed to any experts whom you have decided to be marketers. However, you embrace fringe information under the cloche of being OPEN MINDED so that you may refute any facts put fourth to you.

It seems like a good strategy to hollow just about any discussion.

Mj
 

ibjamming

Active member
Veteran
Could this have something to do with it?

American students continue to perform poorly in math and science compared to their counterparts abroad, they said. Though the United States is still a leader in innovation and produces a disproportionate share of the world's wealth, other countries such as China are investing heavily in research and education and, according to the new report, threatening America's competitiveness.
...
The new report again stressed the importance of education. Though most of the world's top universities are located in the United States, the World Economic Forum ranks the U.S. 48th in math and science education. American test scores in these subjects have changed little over the last 40 years. Nearly one-third of American adults don't know how long it takes the Earth to revolve around the Sun, according to the National Science Board.


http://www.physorg.com/news204569793.html

We all know why "America" is lagging (lately) in the world ranking of education. It's not a problem for most of the country. It's a problem in the inner cities. Take the...XXXXX people out of the equation, and our statistics as a nation go flying back to the top. It's the losers that we drag along that drag us down.

Let me get this straight you do not heed to any experts whom you have decided to be marketers. However, you embrace fringe information under the cloche of being OPEN MINDED so that you may refute any facts put fourth to you.

It seems like a good strategy to hollow just about any discussion.

Mj

i don't "heed" to anyone...let's get that strait. I don't heed to the mainstream, and I don't heed to the fringe groups. What I DO is to at least hear what they have to say. And then "I" decide whether I agree.

You're quite naive if you don't think that "official scientific information" isn't sometimes false...it's bought and paid for "science". Politics weight HEAVILY in the research fields. They kiss ass and report what the sponsors want to hear. So they can get another job next time. you think I'm kidding? A drug company will have 5 or 10 researchers do a study...and they'll use the one that put their new drug in the best light. They just forget about the ones that say it's shit. The FDA is SUPPOSED to prevent it...but they're made up of "retired" ex-drug presidents. ALL the regulatory and the approval agencies are like that. I mean who CAN you get? They have to know the industry.

No, "science" is a lot more fucked up...and unreliable than you think. I'm not talking about physics...you can't fake a particle. Though you can fake fusion apparently...at least for a while. I'm talking the soft science...the science dealing with people. It's manipulated.

i don't refute ALL facts...just the ones that are wrong or not determined yet.

And as for people with titles...so? A degree means nothing more than "you paid your money and you showed up". Does a degree make you an automatic expert? Believe me, a "hobbyist" knows more than most "experts".

What do they call it in debate? The fallacy of authority? Just because "they" say it...doesn't mean it's true. It doesn't mean it isn't either. take EVERYTHING at face value.

Are you a religious woman Mary? You believe everything those "degreed" religious folks tell you? you trust their "research"? I sure hope not!

There's not much more I can say... We're ALL chock full of ignorance, much of it deliberate. From your mom and dad to your "best friend", to school, to business and your job...contrived ignorance...deliberate ignorance. Everyone keeping knowledge from each other. Because we all know...ignorance is bliss.

Just ask the "liberals". They stick their fingers in their ears and start singing la la la la la... Usually the most ignorant of the bunch. because someone is deliberately feeding them stories disguised as the truth. I mean you paid money to "learn" this...it MUST be true. And I'm not saying that Bubba from the hills of West Virginia is right either. We're ALL lied to...

Trust nobody...it's a good thing to keep in the back of your head when dealing with others. Know the context...is another to remember.

damn...I'm buzzed...sorry it's so long...
 

Grat3fulh3ad

The Voice of Reason
Veteran
what is is, and is regardless of the disagreement of those who refuse to look at what is, and regardless of what one wishes was. I feel sorry for those thusly confused by what they wish to be, that it makes them refuse to heed what actually is.

Refusing to look at the evidence is often worse that blindly accepting everything put forth as evidence.


Mary, sac, GMT and one or two others seem well able to discern that fact, but ibjamming seems to have stuck himself so far to one ditch that to him it appears as though everyone
who is in the middle of the road seem to him to be in the opposite ditch.

Let me get this straight you do not heed to any experts whom you have decided to be marketers. However, you embrace fringe information under the cloche of being OPEN MINDED so that you may refute any facts put fourth to you.

It seems like a good strategy to hollow just about any discussion.

Mj

Nail on the head! ( with this one caveat: it should read "However, you embrace whatever fringe information supports your existing prejudgements, under the cloche of being OPEN MINDED")


too bad ib's reply did not address your statements.
 

ibjamming

Active member
Veteran
what is is, and is regardless of the disagreement of those who refuse to look at what is, and regardless of what one wishes was. I feel sorry for those thusly confused by what they wish to be, that it makes them refuse to heed what actually is.

Refusing to look at the evidence is often worse that blindly accepting everything put forth as evidence.


Mary, sac, GMT and one or two others seem well able to discern that fact, but ibjamming seems to have stuck himself so far to one ditch that to him it appears as though everyone
who is in the middle of the road seem to him to be in the opposite ditch.



Nail on the head! ( with this one caveat: it should read "However, you embrace whatever fringe information supports your existing prejudgements, under the cloche of being OPEN MINDED")


too bad ib's reply did not address your statements.

I don't get it...what part of "I don't believe ANY side" don't you get?

Really...you just BEG for an argument with each post.

For you to say that whatever appears in print be it anything from a science journal to a kids schoolbook are utterly true and irreputable facts...is a... Well I'm speechless. If it's "the official report" it's the God's honest truth!

You're a smart guy, I can tell. You're just misguided.

Oh...and for the umteenth time...that's a LOT of times...PLEASE ignore my posts...pretty please? You misunderstand EVERYTHING I say and come back with weird shit.

YOU refuse to look...you are those three monkeys...see, hear, and speak no evil. Buddy...there's evil out there. You ignore it at your peril. Sometimes turning the other cheek get's you that final slap. To ignore ulterior motives is to live in risk.

You HAVE to give both sides a chance...you think it's garbage...it's not.

Case in point..."officially" meaning the VAST majority of "professionals" agree that Cannabis is bad. Yet you disagree? Why? Because you're a hypocrite. You have to be...because you support a cause...and nobody can support a cause 100%. I hope you can't anyway...7 of 9...

Don't get me wrong Head...you've got a lot of GREAT ideas. You're an impressive guy. But you can't be right all the time, and the times I call you out are just the times we disagree. It's not the end of the world...not yet anyway...we'll survive to agree/disagree again.
 

sac beh

Member
For you to say that whatever appears in print be it anything from a science journal to a kids schoolbook are utterly true and irreputable facts...is a... Well I'm speechless. If it's "the official report" it's the God's honest truth!

That's a pretty dishonest read of what he said. It would be absurd to believe everything you read in print. Rather, he simply said he believes what the evidence points to. A lot of the misunderstandings here come down to reading comprehension.

Gravity... is. Flying bearded Mayans... are not. You could believe the opposite of these statements if you'd like, but you can't change what is.

Case in point..."officially" meaning the VAST majority of "professionals" agree that Cannabis is bad. Yet you disagree? Why? Because you're a hypocrite. You have to be...because you support a cause...and nobody can support a cause 100%. I hope you can't anyway...7 of 9...

Can you back this up with some sources? And who are these professionals? When I research the science of cannabis, I see the majority of experts pointing out potentially beneficial and potentially harmful properties of cannabis. The ones that make rhetorical statements like "its bad" have very easy to discern motives behind the statements. Its all quite in the open. You just have to have the factual basis about the properties of cannabis to be able to discern the rhetoric.
 

Grat3fulh3ad

The Voice of Reason
Veteran
I never said you believe any side.
I said you only accept that which verifies your prejudices.
Your extremists views are what puts you in the ditch, not whether or not you 'follow a side'.

For you to imply that the act of printing something makes it become untrue is just silly.
For you to imply that all 'official versions' are propaganda is ludicrous.

I believe that which I dig deeply into and find to be irrefutable (I never used the term irreputable).
Whether of not I find something true is irrelevant to whether or not it is the "official version", and wholly relevant to that things verifiability/refutability.

You rant and rant in response to people's posts, but you rarely address anything they actually posted.
 

Grat3fulh3ad

The Voice of Reason
Veteran
That's a pretty dishonest read of what he said. It would be absurd to believe everything you read in print. Rather, he simply said he believes what the evidence points to. A lot of the misunderstandings here come down to reading comprehension.

It is not reading comprehension.
It is an inherent inability to see anything that does not back up what he already thinks, and that everything he does see is fogged over and distorted by what he already thinks.


case in point: To him, I am stupid because my politics are socially responsible and I like science, therefore anything I say must be stupid because he has decided that I am stupid.
 

Grat3fulh3ad

The Voice of Reason
Veteran
The vast majority of professional politicians believe cannabis is bad.
The vast majority of professional scientists make NO such claim.

As usual, ibjammings argument is based on fallacy.

In fact quite the opposite of his assertion is true.

Case in point: The great republican Richard Nixon commissioned a scientific report about Marijuana. The professional scientists reported in consensus that marijuana use was not harmful at all. Nixon, like the professional politician he was, threw the report in the trash, because it did not support his politics.

I can understand how, to a person as obsessed with politics as ibjamming is, everything might look like politics... but it is not.
 

ibjamming

Active member
Veteran
Blah blah blah...we're just throwing around words.

I've SEEN news that went down in history as completely opposite and untrue of what and why the newsworthy item happened. I KNOW first hand that history...what get's printed in the books...is what the rulers SAY get's printed and taken as the truth. So you can talk and talk all you want.

I never said I don't believe ANYTHING that officials say...I just take EVERYTHING with a grain of salt. Your twisting of my words borders on harassment...one more time...IGNORE my posts...you NEVER get what I say right and twist it into an argument.

Case in point...the recent story of the Titanic. Yes, it seems the story we've all heard and believed is complete bull shit. Seems it WAS a good ship. The fuckhead from White Star, wanting "good publicity", ordered the captain to STEAM ON! After hitting the iceberg.

Just because you're paranoid...doesn't mean there aren't people out to get you.

Grab a science book from the year 1
Grab a science book from the year 100
the year 1000
the year 2000
this years...

What do you notice? IT KEEPS CHANGING

The "science" you use to justify EVERYTHING is still growing young man. It doesn't have ALL the answers. It doesn't even have many of the questions yet.

You're SO sure...my God, you sound like a holy man! Preaching "your religion of science".

Don't be so quick to judge...you'll find yourself eating crow.

Thank you...goodbye Head.
 
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Grat3fulh3ad

The Voice of Reason
Veteran
No... YOU are just throwing around words.

others of us are actually using them to communicate.


Why don't you ever back up your generalized assertions with actual evidence.

Instead of simply making the empty useless rhetorical assertions, give us examples.


You do understand that scientists are not public officials, right?

You gotta stop confusing scientists and politicians if you're ever going to get a clue.



Regardless of what the politicians, businessmen, or reporters said about the titanic, or why it sailed, or why it hit the berg... the scientific explanation that a hull breach caused the ship to loose buoyancy and sink, is still correct.

What is is, regardless what spin gets put on it or what conclusions are drawn from it. What is is.


Science is nothing like religion.
Science is constantly improving our understanding, and is supposed to change as we understand better.
It is like an ever more complete jigsaw puzzle, and the fact that we figure out that a couple of pieces were out of place has never made and scientist eat crow... It is what science expects... Science is all about trying to disprove conventional thought and replace it with something more accurate.

OF COURSE science is always CHANGING. IT IS SUPPOSED TO.
if it didn't it would be religion.

Goodbye ib. I hope you understand someday what science really is and isn't.
 
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bs0

Active member
There was an article about this in a recent scientific American about this, some people are unable to process being wrong in their brain. Kinda interesting.
 

bs0

Active member
Blah blah blah...we're just throwing around words.

I've SEEN news that went down in history as completely opposite and untrue of what and why the newsworthy item happened. I KNOW first hand that history...what get's printed in the books...is what the rulers SAY get's printed and taken as the truth. So you can talk and talk all you want.

I never said I don't believe ANYTHING that officials say...I just take EVERYTHING with a grain of salt. Your twisting of my words borders on harassment...one more time...IGNORE my posts...you NEVER get what I say right and twist it into an argument.

Case in point...the recent story of the Titanic. Yes, it seems the story we've all heard and believed is complete bull shit. Seems it WAS a good ship. The fuckhead from White Star, wanting "good publicity", ordered the captain to STEAM ON! After hitting the iceberg.

Just because you're paranoid...doesn't mean there aren't people out to get you.

Grab a science book from the year 1
Grab a science book from the year 100
the year 1000
the year 2000
this years...

What do you notice? IT KEEPS CHANGING

The "science" you use to justify EVERYTHING is still growing young man. It doesn't have ALL the answers. It doesn't even have many of the questions yet.

You're SO sure...my God, you sound like a holy man! Preaching "your religion of science".

Don't be so quick to judge...you'll find yourself eating crow.

Thank you...goodbye Head.

That is a terrible argument... because science revises and updates to remain accurate it is somehow a bad method... should it retain failed theories like all " holy books"?
 

ibjamming

Active member
Veteran
No... YOU are just throwing around words.

others of us are actually using them to communicate.


Why don't you ever back up your generalized assertions with actual evidence.

Instead of simply making the empty useless rhetorical assertions, give us examples.


You do understand that scientists are not public officials, right?

You gotta stop confusing scientists and politicians if you're ever going to get a clue.



Regardless of what the politicians, businessmen, or reporters said about the titanic, or why it sailed, or why it hit the berg... the scientific explanation that a hull breach caused the ship to loose buoyancy and sink, is still correct.

What is is, regardless what spin gets put on it or what conclusions are drawn from it. What is is.


Science is nothing like religion.
Science is constantly improving our understanding, and is supposed to change as we understand better.
It is like an ever more complete jigsaw puzzle, and the fact that we figure out that a couple of pieces were out of place has never made and scientist eat crow... It is what science expects... Science is all about trying to disprove conventional thought and replace it with something more accurate.

OF COURSE science is always CHANGING. IT IS SUPPOSED TO.
if it didn't it would be religion.

Goodbye ib. I hope you understand someday what science really is and isn't.

Scientists ARE politicians...out to get grant money. They'll kiss ass to anyone willing to give them a study or a project. Scientists in general, like everyone else, is in it to get paid.

As for the Titanic...you made my point...you STILL believe that it sank like it did JUST because it hit an iceberg. No...it sank because an asshole from "corporate" told him to push on...raising the level of the water HIGH ENOUGH to flood into the ship. THAT act, the moving forward quickly...CAUSED the sinking of the ship in record time. SCIENTISTS after finding out the truth, now estimate it would have stayed afloat long after EVERYONE was rescued. Corruption killed 1500 people...not an iceberg.

For most topics that I feel strongly about...when I DO provide facts...posts/threads get deleted. This thread survives because "it's the man" getting the blame. Deservedly so.

So, science couldn't help because ignorance prevailed.

But YOU treat the "current version of science" like the final, complete...no need for updates, this is it, version to last you a lifetime. You quote science "facts", like they are and will NEVER change...but they WILL! Something else WILL come along, something revolutionary...it always does...and it will turn what you believe upside down. Well maybe tip it a bit. Like I said...Newton had his physics, everyone thought "this is it...the answer to everything"...but it wasn't. But people at the TIME swore by it! Followed it religiously. Then came Einstein, turned Newton over. Newton wasn't good enough any more. Well next time, Einstein gets knocked about. Because we'll be at the point where "Einstein isn't good enough...not accurate enough".

My problem with you...here in these discussions...nothing personal...is your fervor towards CURRENT science's ability to describe things. You talk about this and that causes this and that. Yet, your "science"...YOUR GOD...can't tell me WHAT an electron is. We have a name for it. We can measure it, manipulate it to do our bidding...yet we don't know WHAT it is. How the weak force keeps it in orbit. WHAT gravity REALLY is... The list goes on and on...you describe things with things you don't understand. Nothing more than saying the "doohicky make to thigamajig wiggle". "Moses through the power of God parted the seas". OK...gravity holds the moon in orbit...what IS gravity? How does it keep a moon in orbit?

You see, your science explains things no better than the theologians talking about God and his accomplishments. When you have the unified theory of everything figured out, I'll start to believe you (scientists) actually KNOW what you're talking about.

50 years of "loving science" has opened my eyes to the absurdity of it all. The crookedness. When science trends are like clothing trends...when for a while it's bad for you, and then good, I realize how political the whole thing is.
 

jd4083

Active member
Veteran
I know this is a really old thread, but after reading just the first post I had to throw one thing out there -- nobody likes being proselytized, regardless of what the topic of discussion is, and everybody does exactly what you described in your first post...including yourself, whether you realize it or not.
 

Grat3fulh3ad

The Voice of Reason
Veteran
There was an article about this in a recent scientific American about this, some people are unable to process being wrong in their brain. Kinda interesting.

Do you think maybe those people deride science because they perceive the refinement of a theory as admission of being wrong?


I just re-read ibjamming's rant, and the phrase that jumps out at me is

"The "science" you use to justify EVERYTHING is still growing young man. It doesn't have ALL the answers. It doesn't even have many of the questions yet."

as though not already having all the answers makes the answers we do have inadmissible as evidence.



Yes science is growing and always will be.
But by the same token, YES, many many things have been irrefutably demonstrated by science. Science has a very large number of the answers and huge segments of the big picture.


Look at the science from 100 years ago and of today.

100 years ago we thought the earth and her sister planets revolved around the sun, and that the sun was just one of many stars. 100 years ago we thought that CO2 could absorb and re-radiate heat radiation. 100 years ago we thought electricity could be generated and harnessed by all manner of gadgets to make life easier. 100 years ago we thought people needed oxygen to live. 100 years ago we thought gravity pulled objects toward one another. 100 years ago we thought germs caused many illnesses.

Just because some of the theories of science are modified by new discoveries sometimes, does NOT negate the other facts which we've accumulated so much evidence about that no new evidence is likely to ever arise to change the theory at all.

Every time I hear some one use the fact that "science doesn't have a complete explanation for every aspect of every phenomenon" to support their argument that no science can be believed, it makes me facepalm and shake my head in amazement. That has to be one of the worst arguments ever made.
 

Grat3fulh3ad

The Voice of Reason
Veteran
Your rant is irrelevant and incorrect on most every level, except the couple of places where you inadvertently support my assertions.
 

Grat3fulh3ad

The Voice of Reason
Veteran
My problem with you...here in these discussions...nothing personal...is your fervor towards CURRENT science's ability to describe things.

I only have faith in sciences ability to explain the things which it actually has adequately explained.

I have repeatedly made that clear.

You keep ignoring that and trying to pretend otherwise, but I guess you have to in order to sustain your rant.


My problem with you here, is that your political beliefs prevent you from educating yourself enough to know good science from bullshit.
 
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