The Haze discussion thread

[@hempy]

So you have never grown Mango Haze then...

and where is the Haze A in SSH?

You need to read what people post and not make it up as you go i clearly stated i grew Mango Haze i was one of the first to grow it..

I have grown Mr Nice and Nevils work for over 2 decades how many have your grown ?

Who said SSH has SkHzA father ? No one,.



My question is why are some of you so focused on discrediting firstly Mr Nice seed Co and secondly Nevil ?

I dont see any one here that was posting in the Mr Nice forum at Cannabis world or even in the Mr Nice forum in Icmag and or growing there strains for decades that is pushing this agenda.

Mar 23, 2018

• #46

Hi All

well it does seem like the same crew in pm and on the forum looking to increase their breeding knowledge so while i promised Nevil not to put notes up some years ago i can tell you that Afghan Haze is made with Haze C male. That may help some of you follow some things better....all the best Sb

shantibaba

Breeder and moderator

May 31, 2007

• #27

Hi All



Haze A is no longer alive only Haze C male is along with several other different sativa lines.

but plants with the lineage of Haze A are still alive and carrying the genes within.

SSH is made up of Haze C combined to Skunk 1 or Skunk HzC which is the male side, the female side is Haze C combined to NL5 or NL5HzC

the Mango comes from a parallel cross same as SSH but with one difference

Haze A male combined to Sk 1 or Sk HzA being the male plant, the female is NL5HzC....that is the breeding of those three plants

considering the Haze A is no longer a male alive, it still is alive in the ancestry of some of the plants used in all these breeds

I do not have secrets about breeding but given the same seed batches we could all still create something different...it boils down to selection.

La Nina is the widow father breed to a pure Haze female...neither A or C by the way so I hope that clears up all your doubts once and for all.

This is becoming a hate athon clearly.

 

[@hempy]

I agree 100%, the only way to find out how things are is to grow those plants, nothing simpler ... People (some people) look to Sam and Nevil as gods who are the source of absolute truth, but they are men like all of us ... (including Shanti)
HEMPY Whenever I see your Nevil haze plants I can't help but compliment you, they are really beautiful plants, and regarding the leaves I can assure you that certain sativas (pure or hybrid) curl or shed their leaves as they mature ...
About fast sativa, it is true that there are many quite early Mexican strains, but Durban Poison is clearly hybrid, and from Nevil's descriptions even the seeds he received from Sam were potentially hybrid ...

I never looked at Nevil or Sam as gods just growers that were at the right place at the right time.

Its all about the genetics you start with.

I got the Dutch Durban as i call it around i think 86 but in all honesty i thought it was complete shit mild high at best along and all the rest of the dutch offerings i came in contact with were to.

My view of dutch genetics changed once i tried the white widow in the late 90s and that is what draw me to find the breeder and i ended up at Cannabis world.

Going by what the dutch had we were very spoiled here for genetics.

Thanks Willy.

 

[Stocktont]

You need to read what people post and not make it up as you go i clearly stated i grew Mango Haze i was one of the first to grow it..

I have grown Mr Nice and Nevils work for over 2 decades how many have your grown ?

Who said SSH has SkHzA father ? No one,.



My question is why are some of you so focused on discrediting firstly Mr Nice seed Co and secondly Nevil ?

I dont see any one here that was posting in the Mr Nice forum at Cannabis world or even in the Mr Nice forum in Icmag and or growing there strains for decades that is pushing this agenda.







This is becoming a hate athon clearly.

Read what I posted he clearly states BOTH SSH and MH had Haze A in their make-up, I didn't say it had a Skunk x Haze A male but asked you to tell me what part of SSH had Haze A in it as Shanti said it had.

you haven't grown MH but a seed with another father than MH. You're claiming that bit yourself. If you are not getting it by now I am not "discrediting" anyone but I have a problem understanding your logic and your versions of events you say you were part of.

not that it matters (but hey strawman) I have grown many different seeds made by Nevil and I liked them. I liked to read his posts and I have Never made a comment that could lead you to think I don't like him. But you are so worked up about me and others having different opinions to your and now I know its time to ignore you again when you start all this "how many have you grown"... your memory sure seem short and melfunctioning.

We did this before and it ended with you making things up about me. Lets not do that again just explain how your seed with another male as father can be the same as Mango Haze and that is how you have grown it. Also point out what part has Haze A in its linage, which you said no one said but above you can read your buddy Scots words saying just that which was also my point.

good luck with your growing and with thise inbred haze hybrids you're running, see its not so bad to inbreed haze hybrids right! I for one love haze hybrids and inbreeding them, but then again I don't take other people's goals into my growing, I am confident I can find my own favorites, even if someone famous liked anotherone better..

 

[Stocktont]

You need to read what people post and not make it up as you go i clearly stated i grew Mango Haze i was one of the first to grow it..

I have grown Mr Nice and Nevils work for over 2 decades how many have your grown ?

Who said SSH has SkHzA father ? No one,.



My question is why are some of you so focused on discrediting firstly Mr Nice seed Co and secondly Nevil ?

I dont see any one here that was posting in the Mr Nice forum at Cannabis world or even in the Mr Nice forum in Icmag and or growing there strains for decades that is pushing this agenda.







This is becoming a hate athon clearly.

And by quoting the conflicting post to the one I posted you are only underlining my point.

 

[@hempy]

Read what I posted he clearly states BOTH SSH and MH had Haze A in their make-up, I didn't say it had a Skunk x Haze A male but asked you to tell me what part of SSH had Haze A in it as Shanti said it had.

you haven't grown MH but a seed with another father than MH. You're claiming that bit yourself. If you are not getting it by now I am not "discrediting" anyone but I have a problem understanding your logic and your versions of events you say you were part of.

not that it matters (but hey strawman) I have grown many different seeds made by Nevil and I liked them. I liked to read his posts and I have Never made a comment that could lead you to think I don't like him. But you are so worked up about me and others having different opinions to your and now I know its time to ignore you again when you start all this "how many have you grown"... your memory sure seem short and melfunctioning.

We did this before and it ended with you making things up about me. Lets not do that again just explain how your seed with another male as father can be the same as Mango Haze and that is how you have grown it. Also point out what part has Haze A in its linage, which you said no one said but above you can read your buddy Scots words saying just that which was also my point.

good luck with your growing and with thise inbred haze hybrids you're running, see its not so bad to inbreed haze hybrids right! I for one love haze hybrids and inbreeding them, but then again I don't take other people's goals into my growing, I am confident I can find my own favorites, even if someone famous liked anotherone better..

Sorry Stocktont your wrong and Shanti has never said any wear at any time SSH had HzA in its make up.

No i have grown Mango Haze and i still have Mango haze and have had it for close to 2 decades now.

Your clearly here to stir the shit why is Donald not pulling you up could it be because your friends ?.

Your clearly here to discredit people and play what i had hoped was over with that being your game of troll n bait.

Your being ignored now.

 

[Stocktont]

Post #13969 by me, read the quote from S himself

HEMPY


do you even read others posts?

and if you are growing mango haze what did everyone buy from Mr Nice?

 

[@hempy]

One of his post is dated 2018 the other has no date on the other but i dont remember seeing them but i have read his posts from when he started the forum at Cannabis world 99/2000 until i left Mr Nice in 2010 or 2011. The posts you quoted are clearly confusing and not what his posted for years.

Both Mango Haze and SSH use 5HzC moms 1 and 122 they are sister plants.

The father of the Beta seed Mango Haze ( test seed ) is SkHzA Nevil told me that and then i also saw it posted by shanti so my info came from both sources.

The re worked Mango Haze that was later released to the public now has a SkHzC father like SSH but i dont know if the SkHzC father is the same or a different SkHzC male.

The beta Mango Haze was a very different animal to the released version as was the ShitHaze to the Skunk haze .

 

[Stocktont]

One of his post is dated 2018 the other has no date on the other but i dont remember seeing them but i have read his posts from when he started the forum at Cannabis world 99/2000 until i left Mr Nice in 2010 or 2011. The posts you quoted are clearly confusing and not what his posted for years.

Both Mango Haze and SSH use 5HzC moms 1 and 122 they are sister plants.

The father of the Beta seed Mango Haze ( test seed ) is SkHzA Nevil told me that and then i also saw it posted by shanti so my info came from both sources.

The re worked Mango Haze that was later released to the public now has a SkHzC father like SSH but i dont know if the SkHzC father is the same or a different SkHzC male.

The beta Mango Haze was a very different animal to the released version as was the ShitHaze to the Skunk haze .

I am aware what has been posted through the years, you seem to be missing pieces though, so stop being so abviously obtuse and read before you have a fit. See now you can stop being angry at me and address your friends instead. Peace

 

[@hempy]

I had 2 sources of information Nevil and shanti yes some things have been posted by shanti that clearly are confusing but if you read more than a few quotes you will see people called shanti up on things that were confusing and he addressed it.

Every line i have from them i know the back ground to and information directly came from both Nevil and shanti so i dont rely on just quotes i use quotes for others if its helpful.

If your told something by 2 different people and both sides are the same then odds's are its factual and true.

 

[gonanchoa]

Hemp brother, you never even read what Piff was sharing, your eyes gazed over and shut him down with Nevil, Nevil and Nevil.

He mentioned new breeding TeK he found. Not methods/observations that originated a few decades back.

Hello,

It's not new tech, it is a century old already:

**Qte**

The first report of the haploid plant was published by Blakeslee et al. (1922) in Datura stramonium. Subsequently, haploids were reported in many other species. Guha and Maheshwari (1964) developed an anther culture technique for the production of haploids in the laboratory. Haploid production by wide crossing was reported in barley (Kasha and Kao, 1970) and tobacco (Burk et al., 1979). Tobacco, rapeseed, and barley are the most responsive species for doubled haploid production. Doubled haploid methodologies have now been applied to over 250 species.[SUP][2][/SUP]

**Unqte**

And there are many people doing it. Just check online "cannabis double haploid reasearch".



As far as I know nobody achieved it yet on cannabis. Maybe its not possible due to extreme inbreeding depression. Try contacting people who has tried before. sam skunkman has been on top of most recent research and is keen responding, chimera and breeder steve wanted to try. If you do the same as people who tried before, you probably will obtain the same result. Maybe starting out with polyploid/mixoploids helps, IMO apomixis in cannabis exists and could be an easier way (although people argue it doesn't exist). More independent research should be done.

As well as with WGD due to stress or allotetraploids, these would be natural occurrence of polyploids in nature and science wants us to believe only through colchicine its possible. I bet it is the main drive in cannabis evolution.

Beware of pharmaceuticals and scientists. Science nowadays is mainly influence by investors and works toward achieving a result: "discover a new use of cannabis" - which translates to prove that it was used for epilepsia since ancient times, patent an extraction for a pharm corp. Not understanding how cannabis affected the body (endocannabinoid system) didn't imply it did not have any medicinal value and we are coming out of a century of persecution, creating patents for pharm corps who are working towards an oligopoly.

I find funny how people ignore history and pretend to "reinvent the wheel", walking over shoulders of giants pissing in their neck. Anyway as it is said: it's easier to deceive someone, than to convince him that he has been deceived.


best luck with your work, please keep us posted with advancements. I feel like people who have reproduced cannabis with love end up with better plants than those who reproduce for economical profit, just as dog breeders.

 

[Hammerhead]

wait up ,
now haze has indica in it but other times u say growing a 50% haze you wouldn't know it wasn't pure Sativa??
where do you pull this stuff from,, your backside?
or do u intentionally just enjoy disagreeing with people because you didnt say it so its not right??
seems like it to me hempy ,
mate, you need your own forum so u can be the boss and put everyone else in their place because they obviously are mere mortals compared to your godliness,
after all, you spoke to Nevil every day for a while, that's gotta put you up there with the gods surely??
insert sarcastic note where needed of course ...

I'm a bit confused about this as well. I've been reading as much as possible about it. There is some info from RC that states NLD is Indica. Sativa is a misnomer There's a bunch of info posted in this thread..

https://www.icmag.com/forum/icmag-v...tail/339865-tom-hill-haze/page40#post18073246

 

[Piff_cat]

PiffCat were did shanti say he selected a different 5HzA for the Nevils Haze because i have never seen him post that.

And were has shanti stated HzC is dead he has not.

The reason Nevil asked for the 97 Nevils haze is because he himself had made them Nevil told me this that is it in a nut shell he wanted to grow seed he had made him self.

I have the 97 Nevils Haze and i keep telling people 1000s got the same seed up until they ran out in 2003/2004. Then fresh seed was made by shanti from the same plants Nevil used to produce the 97 seed lot. Many people grew them seed out and they looked no different.

Were is this info coming from Piff ? Nevil left Holland after he gave shanti his plant library and a ton of seed then went home to Australia. He never went back to Europe.

The only clone Nevil wanted back was the HzC male full stop.

He was sent samples of set clones and i have all ready posted what Nevil thought on that now from what i know you had the breeding parents and no one but shanti got them and then you also had the coffee shop clones in circulation as people call them.


As for Reverse breeding have you read any of Nevils posts on what he felt was the best way forward for Haze breeding ?

It was not reverse breeding mate and a keep tip is this Nevil put more importance in the male side than he did the female side when it came to breeding.

well hempy considering that dj9 is nevs best friend, holder of most of his genetics i think he knows more then you. and hes currently cultivating relationships with actual geneticists to put this plan into effect using the nh21 cut. you may have some early nevs work and your plants are nicely grown but you know dick about actual breeding. what im describing is the opposite of inbreeding. the technology is just now becoming viable for cannabis. if nev was still here he would be collaborating with us. instead of memorizing grail thread posts and making uninformed comments that show your ignorance why dont you just scroll and roll



On Tue, Feb 8, 2022 at 7:46 PM Piff Productions <piffproductionsllc@gmail.com> wrote:

a real scientist showed me this article on icmag. its called reverse breeding. a cure to f2 segregation could be used to recover haze a and c male. all you need is a clone of the f1. basically a process that stops crossover in meiosis leading to haploid spores on non recombined chromosomes. the anther and pistil are combined creates homozygous lines of double haploid which can be crossed together, make f1s or backcrosses of current lines. would need a real scientist but with your knowledge of the plants it could lead to serious advances in both our understanding of haze and new crazier lines. imagine hitting an outback to the real haze a male. the pieces of a which remain are insane and none of them are pure!! check it ou


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/art...ered%20meiosis


This is good man. I am studying it and talking to a geneticist about it.
To save the NH 21 especially.

D
​

 

[StickyBandit]

I have some Amnesia Mac Ganja seeds coming in the post from Royal Queen Seeds. I was wondering if anyone has experience with this strain?
It looks promising with the parents being Amnesia and Mexican Haze.
https://www.cannabis-seeds-bank.co.uk/royal-queen-seeds-amg-amnesia-mac-ganja/prod_5900

 

[djonkoman]

Hello,

It's not new tech, it is a century old already:

**Qte**

The first report of the haploid plant was published by Blakeslee et al. (1922) in Datura stramonium. Subsequently, haploids were reported in many other species. Guha and Maheshwari (1964) developed an anther culture technique for the production of haploids in the laboratory. Haploid production by wide crossing was reported in barley (Kasha and Kao, 1970) and tobacco (Burk et al., 1979). Tobacco, rapeseed, and barley are the most responsive species for doubled haploid production. Doubled haploid methodologies have now been applied to over 250 species.[SUP][2][/SUP]

**Unqte**

And there are many people doing it. Just check online "cannabis double haploid reasearch".



As far as I know nobody achieved it yet on cannabis. Maybe its not possible due to extreme inbreeding depression. Try contacting people who has tried before. sam skunkman has been on top of most recent research and is keen responding, chimera and breeder steve wanted to try. If you do the same as people who tried before, you probably will obtain the same result. Maybe starting out with polyploid/mixoploids helps, IMO apomixis in cannabis exists and could be an easier way (although people argue it doesn't exist). More independent research should be done.

As well as with WGD due to stress or allotetraploids, these would be natural occurrence of polyploids in nature and science wants us to believe only through colchicine its possible. I bet it is the main drive in cannabis evolution.

Beware of pharmaceuticals and scientists. Science nowadays is mainly influence by investors and works toward achieving a result: "discover a new use of cannabis" - which translates to prove that it was used for epilepsia since ancient times, patent an extraction for a pharm corp. Not understanding how cannabis affected the body (endocannabinoid system) didn't imply it did not have any medicinal value and we are coming out of a century of persecution, creating patents for pharm corps who are working towards an oligopoly.

I find funny how people ignore history and pretend to "reinvent the wheel", walking over shoulders of giants pissing in their neck. Anyway as it is said: it's easier to deceive someone, than to convince him that he has been deceived.


best luck with your work, please keep us posted with advancements. I feel like people who have reproduced cannabis with love end up with better plants than those who reproduce for economical profit, just as dog breeders.

the new 'breeding tek' discussed was 'reverse breeding', not doubled haploids. the process of reverse breeding does require making doubled haploids tough.

if you make doubled haploids, you start from a haploid sperm cell. this is a product of meiosis, so recombination has happened, the dna from both parents is shufled.
however, in the f1 plant, in all the cells that have not undergone meiosis, the chromosomes derived from either parent are still present in their parental state, not shufled.

thus by first blocking crossovers during meiosis, you get haploids where the whole chromosomes from both parents still form random combinations, but within the chromosomes there is no recombination.
thus, there is only a limited number of unique combinations, and among those you will find haploids carrying only parent 1 or only parent 2 chromosomes.
then you do doubled haploid to grow a diploid plant out of it.

one issue with cannabis doubled haploid is probably the tissue culture step, when I read into it a while ago I found only literature reporting failure or low/inconsistent succes rate on the shoot induction step when trying to get a whole plant from callus (a mass of undifferentiated cells). but maybe I didn't look hard enough, or there are more recent developments. or, private companies hold the knowledge but keep it to themselves.
either way, with time and interest/investment I think it should be possible to get a working protocol.

on inbreeding being the problem for failure of doubled haploids, that's a question of numbers. cannabis produces plenty of pollen so I don't think that challenge would really hold back the aplication forever.
I think sometimes in the cannabis scene we regard inbreeding too much as an inescapable fact, while it is to a certain degree a breedable trait.
I have a line up to the 6th generation of selfing and it's still quiet vigourous. in some of the earlier generations I had mutants pop up, some lethal, sometimes a low germ rate, but from around the s4 generation most of the bad stuff has been bred out and I don't see any extreme mutants anymore, and every seed germinates.

although reverse breeding has also already been described already in 2003 as far as I can find, but that's still relatively new, and afaik it hasn't really been done yet in that many crops, certainly not in cannabis.
the power of the method is you don't need to do lengthy line creation anymore, you can just do random polyhybrids (like a lot of people in cannabis are already doing), do a huge phenohunt to find the very best, and then apply reverse breeding to recreate that very best plant in seed form. (or, you could make a seed version of any clone-only strain currently in circulation if you wanted, where every seed will actually grow an identical copy of the clone-version).
the downside is you need money/equipment, so not any joe can do it.

but while it may not yet be in our grasp to do it ourselves I think it's wrong to then just start calling it evil. sure, the profit-driven companies will be the first to use new science, because they have the money. but over time new stuff become more affordable, and then more people will be able to use the tools for their goals.

 

[Thule]

What exactly has been the problem in creating polyploid cannabis?

 

[regseeds]

Hello,

It's not new tech, it is a century old already:

I find funny how people ignore history and pretend to "reinvent the wheel", walking over shoulders of giants pissing in their neck. Anyway as it is said: it's easier to deceive someone, than to convince him that he has been deceived.

I find it funny how people jump to assumptions and cast aspersions so quickly. There is a reason why they say assumptions are the mother of all f**k ups. I guess you haven't learned that yet.

Hempy's situation is more complicated.
Loaded with emotion and a long history of being used as an uncontrollable attack dog by Nevil and Shanti.
He has been lied to repeatedly by them, but to his credit he remains eternally faithful to them out of his hero worship and personal need to be part of the big work that they have done.

@Stocktont you have to walk away brother. Raho summarized this behavior best. He's gone uncontrollable attack dog mode. Hempy we still love you.

Good to see there are some passionate haze heads here. Good day people

 

[gonanchoa]

the new 'breeding tek' discussed was 'reverse breeding', not doubled haploids. the process of reverse breeding does require making doubled haploids tough.

if you make doubled haploids, you start from a haploid sperm cell. this is a product of meiosis, so recombination has happened, the dna from both parents is shufled.
however, in the f1 plant, in all the cells that have not undergone meiosis, the chromosomes derived from either parent are still present in their parental state, not shufled.

thus by first blocking crossovers during meiosis, you get haploids where the whole chromosomes from both parents still form random combinations, but within the chromosomes there is no recombination.
thus, there is only a limited number of unique combinations, and among those you will find haploids carrying only parent 1 or only parent 2 chromosomes.
then you do doubled haploid to grow a diploid plant out of it.

one issue with cannabis doubled haploid is probably the tissue culture step, when I read into it a while ago I found only literature reporting failure or low/inconsistent succes rate on the shoot induction step when trying to get a whole plant from callus (a mass of undifferentiated cells). but maybe I didn't look hard enough, or there are more recent developments. or, private companies hold the knowledge but keep it to themselves.
either way, with time and interest/investment I think it should be possible to get a working protocol.

on inbreeding being the problem for failure of doubled haploids, that's a question of numbers. cannabis produces plenty of pollen so I don't think that challenge would really hold back the aplication forever.
I think sometimes in the cannabis scene we regard inbreeding too much as an inescapable fact, while it is to a certain degree a breedable trait.
I have a line up to the 6th generation of selfing and it's still quiet vigourous. in some of the earlier generations I had mutants pop up, some lethal, sometimes a low germ rate, but from around the s4 generation most of the bad stuff has been bred out and I don't see any extreme mutants anymore, and every seed germinates.

although reverse breeding has also already been described already in 2003 as far as I can find, but that's still relatively new, and afaik it hasn't really been done yet in that many crops, certainly not in cannabis.
the power of the method is you don't need to do lengthy line creation anymore, you can just do random polyhybrids (like a lot of people in cannabis are already doing), do a huge phenohunt to find the very best, and then apply reverse breeding to recreate that very best plant in seed form. (or, you could make a seed version of any clone-only strain currently in circulation if you wanted, where every seed will actually grow an identical copy of the clone-version).
the downside is you need money/equipment, so not any joe can do it.

but while it may not yet be in our grasp to do it ourselves I think it's wrong to then just start calling it evil. sure, the profit-driven companies will be the first to use new science, because they have the money. but over time new stuff become more affordable, and then more people will be able to use the tools for their goals.

Plants have 2 sets of chromosomes, one from dad one from mom. A+B. As an dioecious outcrosser cannabis is very heterogeneous, there is no homogeneous cannabis varieties. If you achieve what you say, then you would obtain dad AA and mom BB that is your objective right? AA and BB are homogeneous. there are homogeneous plants and animals (like laboratory rats), but not a single cannabis plant yet. As you stated its a one step winner and it would be a great tool for breeders if possible and made available.

All I say is people have been trying before without success for more than 20 years and its not new. I even gave you tips that might help you (use polyploids and/or mixoploids).



Btw, regarding your inbreding experiment, maybe your variety is still highly heterozigous on most genes, thats why you keep on inbreeding (selecting for heterozigous plants) as they did with C99 during many generations. The thing is it segregates and is not stable, thus we are forggeting our objective of doing the experiment of double haploids -> obtaining stability instead of segregation.




Thule no problem with polyploid cannabis. Just arguing that it could be the natural mechanism for evolution, and maybe some scientist have an interest on saying its artificial to profit from it. Some plants undergo WGD due to stresses and also others duplicate when crossed with very distant relatives (allotetraploids), why not cannabis? More INDEPENDENT research must be done, without conflict of interests.


Sorry for not believing in the "scientists bible dogmas" and their "rediscovering" of medical uses after a century of persecution worldwide for the benefit of the pharma corps oligopoly.

Hala Madrid!

 

[Donald Mallard]

I'm a bit confused about this as well. I've been reading as much as possible about it. There is some info from RC that states NLD is Indica. Sativa is a misnomer There's a bunch of info posted in this thread..

https://www.icmag.com/forum/icmag-v...tail/339865-tom-hill-haze/page40#post18073246

yea all drug type cannabis is indica ,
nld and bld are both indica as tom said for sometime now ,
its just hard to have some of the conversations we do without using the old terminology,
we know what we mean ,, kinda ,, haha ...

 

[Donald Mallard]

Sorry Stocktont your wrong and Shanti has never said any wear at any time SSH had HzA in its make up.

No i have grown Mango Haze and i still have Mango haze and have had it for close to 2 decades now.

Your clearly here to stir the shit why is Donald not pulling you up could it be because your friends ?.

Your clearly here to discredit people and play what i had hoped was over with that being your game of troll n bait.

Your being ignored now.

im not saying anything because stocktont has a point ,
if you grew something initially labeled mango haze which was a tester,
and didnt make the grade because it was too impractical,
so the lineage was changed and a new mango haze was born,
unless you grew this new one , you have not grown what everyone else knows as mango haze ,

so you see ??
yep, your cool because u got a tester and followed it through ,
we all get that point , but your missing the fact that what you grew didnt become "the" mango haze,
ie the one that was released,
this is the point he was trying to make ,
its not too hard to fathom really ,
you can be quite obtuse at times ,
ease up and get a bit of reading comprehension going before you go on the defensive and call troll ....

 

[Donald Mallard]

I agree 100%, the only way to find out how things are is to grow those plants, nothing simpler ... People (some people) look to Sam and Nevil as gods who are the source of absolute truth, but they are men like all of us ... (including Shanti)
HEMPY Whenever I see your Nevil haze plants I can't help but compliment you, they are really beautiful plants, and regarding the leaves I can assure you that certain sativas (pure or hybrid) curl or shed their leaves as they mature ...
About fast sativa, it is true that there are many quite early Mexican strains, but Durban Poison is clearly hybrid, and from Nevil's descriptions even the seeds he received from Sam were potentially hybrid ...

do you mean a specific durban poison willy ,
or "the" durban poison ,
because its been around a very long time , long before seed banks etc
i havent grown any from seed banks , just some i got direct from africa ,
and im pretty sure the stuff i got was not crossed with indica ...