The Hardwater-Calcium-Lime Thread

[bigshrimp]

This topic has been discussed quite a bit in the regular forums but not so much here in recycled organic soil, where it matters more.

Lets hear you experiences and strategies for dealing with hard water in the long term.

Hopefully we can come up with some guidelines for dealing with calcium buildup in our soil.

 

[Treetroit City]

Reverse osmosis?

 

[HidingInTheHaze]

...

 

[RanchoDeluxe]

My water comes out of the tap at 7.8 - 8.3 pH and around 262 ppm's. About 60 ppm's are Ca.

All I do is follow the soil mix and tea recipes outlined in the ROLS thread. The results simply speaks for itself.

 

[jaded1]

Only time i added any calcium/lime to my soil was when i 1st mixed it,my water has 328 ppm with 136ppm cal so it don't need any extra.Also find i cant run without ph'ing.

 

[VerdantGreen]

i found recycling soil difficult with my high pH tapwater 8.5-9, im pretty sure it was well over 100ppm Ca. I use dolomite lime as well when i first mix soil which maybe didnt help.


here is a paper on the subject that makes interesting reading.
http://www.usu.edu/cpl/PDF/Optimization_of_SoillessMedia_High_pH_Water_Sources.pdf

my advice is to use rainwater as much as possible if you want to recycle your soil and your water source is very alkaline.

 

[bigshrimp]

Thanks for the replies all, i kinda forgot about this one.

So it seems most of us are ok just going lime light. I have well water at 304ppm, 300 of it calcium and ph 7.4, and don't have problems yet my soil is only about a year old.

 

[dreadlock]

nice one..i'm in a similar situation and using hard water. good read

 

[Granger2]

Lowering the pH to 7ish with citric acid converts some of the lime [Ca, Mg, etc.] into more plant available citrates. -granger

 

[The Sensi Rebel]

I use unfiltered well-water in ROLS, work great for me. I added a bit to my original batch just to stabile pH a bit in the peat, but ince the water is already hard, I just supplement it with a bit of Epsom, Sulfur, and Gypsum.

Regardless of what a sacrilege the old heads will tell me with the Epsom, it's worked for me.

 

[VerdantGreen]

i second the citric acid, it keeps P available in the soil too. lots of benefits.

VG

 

[bigshrimp]

Think i need a ph meter to use critic acid, or would strips/ drops be accurate enough?

Lemon juice?

 

[dreadlock]

interesting, i didn't know much about citric acid until now.. it looks good

 

[VerdantGreen]

i use a pH meter to bring the tapwater down to around 6. you kind of get used to how much to add to a can after a while so i dont measure every time.
best to add a tablespoon of citric acid crystals to a pint of water and bottle it - then use the solution as a bottle of pH down.

you can buy a reasonable pH meter for 20 odd $, ive found it a useful tool as long as you dont get too hung up on pH - use the pHorce

even though i use rainwater now i still add a little citric acid sometimes because i think it helps the plants in a few different ways.

VG

 

[Microbeman]

it keeps P available in the soil too.

Is this a fact?

 

[VerdantGreen]

hi Mm ive read a lot to that effect:

http://www.scielo.cl/pdf/gbot/v60n1/art09.pdf

 

[fatburt]

My water comes out of the tap at 7.8 - 8.3 pH and around 262 ppm's. About 60 ppm's are Ca.

All I do is follow the soil mix and tea recipes outlined in the ROLS thread. The results simply speaks for itself.

i am exactly the same.i never ever have problems.i think the minerals in the water actually help organics.

 

[symbiote420]

Earth Juice pH down crystals are essentially citric acid and so is lemon juice, which is alot cheaper but what I've noticed when using lemon juice is that the pH goes back up fairly quick! I use an 1/8 tsp of pH down and it gets me from 8.0 to 6.5

 

[Microbeman]

hi Mm ive read a lot to that effect:

http://www.scielo.cl/pdf/gbot/v60n1/art09.pdf

I could not find where in the paper there was the absolute conclusion which you stated. I did however find these points, some of which bolster my latest hypothesis;

There is disagreement as to whether citric
acid is exuded in its acid form, and only dissociates
once it is outside the cell environment and
consequently causing acidification (Geelhoed et al.
1999; Haynes & Mokolobate, 2001; Staunton &
Leprince 1996) or in its conjugate form base form
citrate3-, as cytosol pH is 7.1 – 7.3 (Hinsinger 2001;
Jones 1998). In the latter case, the soil pH decrease
is not caused by citric acid dissociation, but by the
simultaneously excreted countercation H+ in order
to maintain electrical neutrality.

Despite our limited knowledge of the
mechanisms by which carboxylates improve P
availability, empirical evidence indicates that
exudation yields a competitive advantage to plants
in natural ecosystems. Organic acid concentrations
have been reported to be significantly lower in
cultivated soils than in paired sites under native
vegetation (Fox & Comerford 1990; Hue et al.
1986). Not only pristine forests (Schlesinger 1997),
but also species rich ecosystems are reported to have
plants that are capable of exudation.

Moreover, citric acid may interfere with the color
reaction used to determine MRP (Galhardo & Masini
2000; Petterson & Karlberg 1999).

So, only microbial decarboxylation and ligand exchange between citric acid and dissolved particles (< 0.45 μm) with
hydroxyl groups are left as possible pH increasing
mechanisms.

Taken together, effects of citric acid are not
attributable solely to rhizosphere pH modification,
but also to the complexation capacities of citric acid.
However, exact quantification of the effects of citrate
on P availability remains difficult. As yet, it is not
clear what the typical concentrations are for bulk
soil, rhizosphere soil and soil solution (Staunton &
Leprince 1996), while the concentrations used
during the experiment obviously are crucial.
Furthermore, carboxylates are very susceptible to
microbial breakdown. Thus, results tend to be very
case specific. More research is needed to infer more
general conclusions.

 

[Twist1]

For what it's worth I use rainwater as much as possible too. I got myself a bigass barrel on my balcony to collect it, and it's awesome. If I do ever need to ph adjust my hard tapwater down, I use citric acid - mainly because I had some laying around. It seems to work great and the plants seem happy

Peace