The Deth, Big Sur Holy Weed... Elite as FUck

[Shmavis]

Thanks Breadwizard.

I had a couple paragraphs to post but the site errored out on me. So for now I will just see if I can post the girls. Had wanted to wait for full pic posting but that may be a while yet.

Best of luck with your babies!

 

[Shmavis]

In my opinion the BSHW is another pure Afghan line from the hippies vibration, surely Mazari style, and then renamed as always, show off blablabla Mex crossed and so on, pure American style.

First I’ve read of that as a possibility, but could be. From all the digging I did I could only find two camps of thought as to what constitutes BSHW. Most say it’s Zacatecas x Afghani (likely Mazar-i-Sharif) with a smaller number of folks saying that BSHW is pure Zacatecas grown for decades in Big Sur, taking on the moniker of BSHW among the locals over time. Thing is, nearly everyone who claims this points to Jerry Kamstra’s book, “Weed” as proof. But the relevant passages do not say Zacatecas was kept pure only to later be rechristened. The book does not say BSHW wasn’t a hybrid… also read a forum post from a member who claimed to know Adam Dunn personally and this poster claimed that Adam told him that S.A.G.E. is a backcross, i.e., that BSHW is Zac x Afghan, as he used an old MIS male he held (holds?) to cross to BSHW. But hey, it’s the internet after all, and they could all be full of shit.

One thing that doesn’t seem disputed is that Charles holds the real deal. I got these seeds because they’re old school genetics - regardless the actual genetic lineage within - with a purported psychedelic/trippy high, which is what I am ultimately hoping to find in one of these girls. And if not from one of the seven, maybe within the next generation seeds I hope to make.

 

[MAHA KALA]

I definitely can smell mazar there. but spices are from mexican weed. and character of effect is very different to mazar. it is not called holy for nothing. really strong pot, but with spiritual charter. I love herb with character. by the way if you would grow mazar here, it would mold up in a minute. I mean all kind of molds, leaf mold or stem mold.. whole holy weed stayed untouched. you should judge herb by smoke, not by the looks. holy weed doenst smoke like mazar, not even close.

 

[MAHA KALA]

holyweed has same story as many heirlooms from USA. like trainwreck, romulan, matanuska tundra, NL5haze, blueberry, norcal goo etc.. all these started as pure sativas or pure sativa hybrids at 60s and 70´s. they were all crossed with afghan at 80s. because of illegality and necessity of growing indoor and indica helps with indoor adaptability. but even today they are special because of sativa mix inside. there are still old guys who hold sativa matanuska or sativa bshw. just very rare...

 

[Shmavis]

MAHA KALA Thanks for sharing your thoughts and experience on the elusive makeup of some of the classics. I take what you're saying to mean both camps of thought could be correct. It's just that the more "modern day" widely held understanding of BSHW is the later Afghan infused version. Makes sense to me.

Would appreciate hearing your thoughts on #1 - Mex looking/leaning? I am really fond of her. She and the male rooted all three cuts before even one cut rooted on most of the others. #2 took forever to root, surprising given her vigor. Will be cleaning them up tonight and throwing some pollen around.

Group, day 27:

#1, day 27:

Happy Sunday!

 

[...CR500AF...]

 

[MAHA KALA]

MAHA KALA Thanks for sharing your thoughts and experience on the elusive makeup of some of the classics. I take what you're saying to mean both camps of thought could be correct. It's just that the more "modern day" widely held understanding of BSHW is the later Afghan infused version. Makes sense to me.

Would appreciate hearing your thoughts on #1 - Mex looking/leaning? I am really fond of her. She and the male rooted all three cuts before even one cut rooted on most of the others. #2 took forever to root, surprising given her vigor. Will be cleaning them up tonight and throwing some pollen around.

Group, day 27:



#1, day 27:



Happy Sunday!

looks nice. did you get some color on stems? it was bred to have afghan short stature and chunky buds, so I doubt you will find some really sativa leaning in the look. I chose the tallest, but from cut it had stature of afghan. I am haze lover, so if it would smoke as afghan, I do not smoke it. definitely on sativa side, as far as effect goes. what I really like on it, is the fact it has long lasting effect, which is very remarkable trait for 11week hybrid. and taste is addictive. of course it needs some selection. I found one exceptional from 8 females. I am happy with it

 

[star crash]

“The Big South Pump” ... 1/3 BSHW

 

[Roms]

Mazari landrace, TRSC (2008/10), sativa pheno by JGL
https://www.icmag.com/forum/marijuan...88#post8426788

Holyweed has same story as many heirlooms from USA. like trainwreck, romulan, matanuska tundra, NL5haze, blueberry, norcal goo etc.. all these started as pure sativas or pure sativa hybrids at 60s and 70´s. they were all crossed with afghan at 80s. because of illegality and necessity of growing indoor and indica helps with indoor adaptability. but even today they are special because of sativa mix inside. there are still old guys who hold sativa matanuska or sativa bshw. just very rare...

Hi Maha, i would say the inverse all really started as pure Afghan or Afghanica (indica x sativa) since the end of the 60s thanks to hippies' import. And then when you know how deep and large the Afghani genetics is you realize that some famous things like the BSHW(sativa) or OG Kush(indica) etc can be simply pure Afghani and just acclimatized and selected over the years.

Knowing also that the reputation of Mazari strain is also about the quality of its high that is long lasting positive and not really couchlock! It's more mellow cotton body with no celling happy spiritual kind of buzz. Strong stuff too at high dose!

About the mold factor yes but it's especially valid for the best/potent indica resinous ones, the sativa side of the Mazar calm the fragility and with just a few generations of outdoor reproduction in California for example the problem is easy solved i think.

 

[MAHA KALA]

give us some proof they were growing indicas in Santa Cruz at 60s, instead of speculation... I tend to believe Jerry Kamstra, who invent the name holy weed. he was there. it is in his books, they smuggled and grew mexican and colombian weed. indicas were introduced much much later, end of 70s.

you may believe that blueberry started as afghan, but according to DJ Short it started as oaxacan gold x thai, and he had access to hashplants much much later. DJ Short: "Afghan and Hindu Kush plants grown in the Pacific Northwest since 1978. A quantity of Afghan seed was smuggled to the Emerald Triangle in 1978. Commercial production of the strain began shortly after that. There may have been earlier trials with Afghan seed in the region prior to 1978, but none ever made it to commercial production quantities or to public market. ." if I am not blind and can read. he said since 1978? he was there 100%tly

 

[Roms]

Here's a 70s Mazari in California, i don't know its precise date and source? End 70s i guess...

About the end 60s for sure no document but it was the start of the Flower Power vibes and the first hippies just started to come back from Afghanistan, Pakistan, India etc... End 60s start 70s i think that Afghan genetics started and landed in few Californian hands..Of course they used to smoke South or Central Americans strains like Mexican, Colombian or Jamaican before but the birth of the modern breeding in America started thanks to Afghanni prior imho.

you may believe that blueberry started as afghan, but according to DJ Short it started as oaxacan gold x thai, and he had access to hashplants much much later. DJ Short: "Afghan and Hindu Kush plants grown in the Pacific Northwest since 1978. A quantity of Afghan seed was smuggled to the Emerald Triangle in 1978. Commercial production of the strain began shortly after that. There may have been earlier trials with Afghan seed in the region prior to 1978, but none ever made it to commercial production quantities or to public market. ." if I am not blind and can read. he said since 1978? he was there 100%tly

Exception sativa lover and pionner breeder is DJ Short yes, big respect!

 

[MAHA KALA]

The center of the marijuana-growing industry in the United States is in northern California, especially Humboldt County, where growers use the latest scientific methods to produce first-quality crops. California marijuana is not only as good as most foreign varieties but far more likely to reach American consumers in a relatively fresh state, at or near peak potency. Among the best California varieties is one known as Big Sur Holy Weed, which was originally grown from seeds of Zacatecas Purple, a rare Mexican strain.

another quote:

Zacatecas Purple is a variety of marijuana that grows in a particular high mountain valley in the state of Zacatecas. When cured the seeds from the colas have a distinctive purple hue. and the weed is exremely potent. especially if it is allowed to cure properly. in the late sixties a beatnik dealer planted a crop using some Zacatecas Purple seeds in the mountains of Big Sur. The resultant weed came to be known as Big Sur Holy Weed and holy it was too.

no word on afghan. besides there is one guy, who smuggled weed at 60´ at Big Sur, he has bshw line without mazar, according to his words it is mexican/colombian weed.

 

[MAHA KALA]

wish I have that line without Mazar. why? because of higher quality. thats why I will cross bshw with sativas to get better cerebral quality. not with afghan that would be step back. wish they never crossed it with afghan.

this is from New York Times article from January 1979. varieties mentioned:

Acapulco Gold (Mexico), Amazonas (Colombia), Bermudian, Black Gungeon (India), Blue Sky Blond (Col.), Bolivian, Brazilian, Orange Colombian, Colombian Gold, Colombian Mona, Colombian Red, Colombian Red Gold, Colombian Chiba, Stickless Colombian, Colombian Multicolored, Culiacan (Mex.), Guadalajara Green, Guatemalan, Guerrero Gold (Mex.), Guerrero Green, Hawaiian Blue, Honduran, Jamaican Blue Mountain, Kali (Jamaica), Kauai (Hawaii), Kerala Grass (Ind.), Kona Gold (Haw.), Kona Green, Leper Grass (Haw.), Llanos Green (Col.), Machu Picchu (Peru), Mad Jag (Haw.), Malawian, Manizales Black (Col.), Maui (Haw.), Maui Wowie, Mauna Loa (Haw.), Michoacan (Mex.), Misawan Gold (Japan), Misawan Purple, Molokai Magic, Nayarit Yellow (Mex.), Nepalese, Nicaraguan, Nigerian Black, Oahu (Haw.), Oaxacan (Mex.), Oaxacan Red, Panama Red, Popo Oro (Mex.), Pueblo (Mex.), Puna Butter (Haw.), Punta Roja (Col.), Santa Marta Gold (Col.), Santa Marta Red, Sinaloan (Mex.), Sumatran, Thai, Torreon Violet (Mex.), Venezuelan, Vietnamese, Wacky Weed (Col.), Yucatan (Mex.), Zacatecas Purple (Mex.)

absolutely no note about Mazar or any other afghan.. I think we can date massive using of afghan later than 1979 easily.

from same article: "Until around 1975, the great bulk of marijuana purchased in the United States was grown in Mexico. Recently, Colombian grass has become more popular. It tends to be stronger, for one thing, and it is also grown with less interference from the authorities Mexican growers often harvest their crops too early, to avoid detection, and this results in a steep decline in quality. In addition, Mexican marijuana has traditionally suffered from improper methods of curing and transport. Finally, the widespread use of Paraquat, a chemical defoliant, in the Mexican marijuana fields during 1978 made the Mexican product both scarce and unpopular in the United States."

in that article they describe colombian weed to be more "stony" than uppity speedy mexican. its because of they have no clue how afghan can be STONY! if they know afghan, they would not describe colombian like that

paraquat and operations against outdoor sativa grows is what decided that some afghans got the chance. original haze also started as mix of colombians, after 1980 they crossed it with indicas. blueberry we mentioned. and it is the same for holy weed. and other strains too. there are still guys who have sativa matanuska too:

I was gifted some MTF beans that were originally from Alaska Cannabis Cache, does anybody have experience with this strain? here's the description from what little information i could find:

Matanuska ThunderFuck is a mostly sativa variety from ACC and can be cultivated indoors (where the plants will need a flowering time of ±91 days) and outdoors. ACCs Matanuska ThunderFuck is/was never available as feminized seeds.

Sativa Dominant Old School Hybrid, long flowering up to 13 weeks huge plants with massive yields this is the Original from Lazy Mountain area of Palmer Alaska, in the Matanuska Valley, long rumored to be gone this is an IBL that has been regenerated since 1974, and only shared with very few local growers in remote Southeast Alaska.

 

[Roms]

wish I have that line without Mazar. why? because of higher quality. thats why I will cross bshw with sativas to get better cerebral quality. not with afghan that would be step back. wish they never crossed it with afghan.

Not underestimate the high of the pure MIS of the 70s according nowadays stony selection of Mazar*Skunk etc. MIS high height potency is not far from pure sativa, the only difference is the body relax and fly additionnal effects in comparison of exciting and energiz pure sativa. Perso i felt similiraties between my MIS line and the Jamaican purple Lambsbread, not the same for sure but the potency and high level is comparable!

this is from New York Times article from January 1979. varieties mentioned:

Acapulco Gold (Mexico), Amazonas (Colombia), Bermudian, Black Gungeon (India), Blue Sky Blond (Col.), Bolivian, Brazilian, Orange Colombian, Colombian Gold, Colombian Mona, Colombian Red, Colombian Red Gold, Colombian Chiba, Stickless Colombian, Colombian Multicolored, Culiacan (Mex.), Guadalajara Green, Guatemalan, Guerrero Gold (Mex.), Guerrero Green, Hawaiian Blue, Honduran, Jamaican Blue Mountain, Kali (Jamaica), Kauai (Hawaii), Kerala Grass (Ind.), Kona Gold (Haw.), Kona Green, Leper Grass (Haw.), Llanos Green (Col.), Machu Picchu (Peru), Mad Jag (Haw.), Malawian, Manizales Black (Col.), Maui (Haw.), Maui Wowie, Mauna Loa (Haw.), Michoacan (Mex.), Misawan Gold (Japan), Misawan Purple, Molokai Magic, Nayarit Yellow (Mex.), Nepalese, Nicaraguan, Nigerian Black, Oahu (Haw.), Oaxacan (Mex.), Oaxacan Red, Panama Red, Popo Oro (Mex.), Pueblo (Mex.), Puna Butter (Haw.), Punta Roja (Col.), Santa Marta Gold (Col.), Santa Marta Red, Sinaloan (Mex.), Sumatran, Thai, Torreon Violet (Mex.), Venezuelan, Vietnamese, Wacky Weed (Col.), Yucatan (Mex.), Zacatecas Purple (Mex.)

Great list of sativa landrace, and they are still alive for most i think so but in danger for sure because of modern selection and cross of "Afghanni". May next generation growers and breeders will save and revive them all, that is the "big sur holy weed" new kind of project! Focused to landrace preservation instead of backcross revival try etc. The same for the great Indica vibes of landrace from India, Nepal, Pakistan and Afghanistan hehe far from America at start 70s ya (only few baba cool with some Afghan in California i guess), thank you for details and that 1979 list!

 

[MAHA KALA]

Not underestimate the high of the pure MIS of the 70s according nowadays stony selection of Mazar*Skunk etc. MIS high height potency is not far from pure sativa, the only difference is the body relax and fly additionnal effects in comparison of exciting and energiz pure sativa. Perso i felt similiraties between my MIS line and the Jamaican purple Lambsbread, not the same for sure but the potency and high level is comparable!

we will never agree on this I smoked hashplant number one(weedzilla cut) x deep chunk. both pre-soviet afghans. it was very special and calming and spiritual. it was nice. I still remember it, but no, it is not close to proper sativa. no way. especially psychoactivity is much higher for sativa cultivar. any musician will confirm it to you. I have never ever smoked such psychoactive indica. was that lambsbread grown properly? as it is much easier to grow mazar, and much easier to fucked up lambsbread. I would not grow it indoors for smoke, I wouldn't manage it right...

why do you cross mazar with sativas? when it is as good?

it reminds me like that guy stated to me that cookies smokes like thai stick. shit. why we all mess with 14 weeks plants, some of us with 18+ weeks, if we can get it from quick flowering indica. we dumb idiots hehe if it is true what you just wrote, then it is revolution! I hope you can prove it, the best would be to spread around mazar sativa line do you agree?

it is possible that some line of zacatecas x mazar was taken so much to mazar side, that it is like mazar now. not all phenos of bshw are spectacular. it needs some selection. I selected for psychoactive properties never experienced from indica smoke. and its basically because hashplants are for hash, and not for smoking flowers and they selected it like that for generations. they dont care about individual plant like we do, selection is only for resin. and resin is composed from many average individuals and not one individual.

if there is no operations against cannabis at 70s, it is question if indicas would be ever smoked at massive scale in USA.. imported hash yes, but thats something different. I saw some kabul hashish 1975 in book of hashish. so there were import of it, but most individuals they grew from it, if they found seeds in it, were those average ones to smoke, which makes unique superior hashish when their resin is mixed together. that is all genepool of afghans, it consists from average individuals in its phenotypes. compared to sativa individuals, where they kept seeds only from those which flowers smoked the best. that is main difference between hasplants from subtropical area versus tropical areas sativas. difference is in selection which is kind of manipulation right? so no og kush is not indica selection, it is indica/sativa cross. you can try to improve hashplant wiht sativas like you want, it still doesn't smoke like sativa. you get some new interesting effects for sure by mixing though. you can change it with selection, you stated you did. but you are not the only one. I smoked so many indicas which should smoke like sativa, none of them really did...

and bshw doesn't smoke like sativa enough, it is screwed by afghan

Tom Hill made killer selection of deep chunk and x18 pakistani(with his friend Chemist). he made also killer selection of original haze. I have never heard from him that X18 would smoke like haze... and I think he smoked a lot of individuals of Paki hashplant.. yet he said that his haze smokes like nothing else!

no offense Roms, keep it up.

 

[MAHA KALA]

you say they grow mazar at 1970 in California. okay.but why we dont see it at list of weed from 1979? I try to answer, because it was not so good as kona gold, colombian wacky weed or red oaxacan? either way it would make it its way to be popular? no?

 

[Roms]

Yep even no one other indica in the list lol in 1979! Well it's a NY paper and not from LA but it's significant that how much unpopular was the indica cannabis for Americans but it doesn't mean that there was nobody who grown it in the decade. From 1979 the Afghan war started with URSS and then American soldiers started bringing back indica seeds and hasch but 10 years before the hippies had already made the trip so... Just assumtion and i'm probably wrong about the BSHW's origin but there's often the underground before the popular sprout and i'm sure that few ones smoked hasch and MIS before the 80s, maybe more in LA than NY too hehe. Peace. I'm European and indica and hasch is known since longer time

 

[Roms]

we will never agree on this I smoked hashplant number one(weedzilla cut) x deep chunk. both pre-soviet afghans. it was very special and calming and spiritual. it was nice. I still remember it, but no, it is not close to proper sativa. no way. especially psychoactivity is much higher for sativa cultivar. any musician will confirm it to you. I have never ever smoked such psychoactive indica. was that lambsbread grown properly? as it is much easier to grow mazar, and much easier to fucked up lambsbread. I would not grow it indoors for smoke, I wouldn't manage it right...

why do you cross mazar with sativas? when it is as good?

it reminds me like that guy stated to me that cookies smokes like thai stick. shit. why we all mess with 14 weeks plants, some of us with 18+ weeks, if we can get it from quick flowering indica. we dumb idiots hehe if it is true what you just wrote, then it is revolution! I hope you can prove it, the best would be to spread around mazar sativa line do you agree?

MIS isn't a pure indica like X18 or Deep Chunk it's an Afghanica, indica x sativa ya know! Also sometimes breeding things are not as logical as you imagine, for exemple and from my experience sativa phenos of the MIS used to have more CBD and less THC and the best THC/THCV ones are from ithe other side indica, quite paradoxal but that's what i/we found!

I crossed the MIS with the Lambsbread to increase the THCV because i know that the JLB has zéro CBD.
My MIS line is also especially potent and THCV positive so, without CBD too! ^^

it is possible that some line of zacatecas x mazar was taken so much to mazar side, that it is like mazar now. not all phenos of bshw are spectacular. it needs some selection. I selected for psychoactive properties never experienced from indica smoke. and its basically because hashplants are for hash, and not for smoking flowers and they selected it like that for generations. they dont care about individual plant like we do, selection is only for resin. and resin is composed from many average individuals and not one individual.

if there is no operations against cannabis at 70s, it is question if indicas would be ever smoked at massive scale in USA.. imported hash yes, but thats something different. I saw some kabul hashish 1975 in book of hashish. so there were import of it, but most individuals they grew from it, if they found seeds in it, were those average ones to smoke, which makes unique superior hashish when their resin is mixed together. that is all genepool of afghans, it consists from average individuals in its phenotypes. compared to sativa individuals, where they kept seeds only from those which flowers smoked the best. that is main difference between hasplants from subtropical area versus tropical areas sativas. difference is in selection which is kind of manipulation right? so no og kush is not indica selection, it is indica/sativa cross. you can try to improve hashplant wiht sativas like you want, it still doesn't smoke like sativa. you get some new interesting effects for sure by mixing though. you can change it with selection, you stated you did. but you are not the only one. I smoked so many indicas which should smoke like sativa, none of them really did...

and bshw doesn't smoke like sativa enough, it is screwed by afghan

Tom Hill made killer selection of deep chunk and x18 pakistani(with his friend Chemist). he made also killer selection of original haze. I have never heard from him that X18 would smoke like haze... and I think he smoked a lot of individuals of Paki hashplant.. yet he said that his haze smokes like nothing else!

no offense Roms, keep it up.

During the 80s Afghan war the indica brought back in America was different and much more from Pakistan and South Afghanistan, not from the North of Afghanistan occupated by the URSS. That's why the MIS is underrated or unrecognized as its true value, that's not the same indica stuff.

Vibes Maha, try your luck with my seeds or give a try with some landrace from both sides of the Hindu Kush and you will understand what i mean. Nowadays over indica selection/breeding is far from the source landrace and some cannabinoids disappeared imho. Indica vibes are more complex and vast also i suggest to test and smoke some Nepalese who is much more comparable to MIS than the ancestor kind of indica X18 or Deep Chunk. It's by going back to the source and landrace that you can round the circle of knowledge, not by searching through modern strains over breeded i think.

Some new BSHW can only be recover by selecting landrace, from all around the world no problemo!

 

[Roms]

Both are from my MIS line for example (with pollen and males flowers) (onebud direct 12/12) :

 

[Shmavis]

Interesting discussion fellas. The kind I usually try to stay out of, as I see such as ultimately a rabbit hole… however, a couple points for the sake of clarity. 1.) If we parse the words and phrases Jerry uses in his book, we find that ‘Big Sur Holy Weed’ is not a neologism coined by him. The weed was already known as such. 2.) The beatnik planted a crop using *some* ZP seeds - to say nothing of others he may have been growing as well. Seems plausible this wasn’t his first crop - and the lack of an outright mention of Afghan does not necessarily imply, nor confirm, its absence.

The problem being there is not a large enough sample from the population known as BSHW to engage in proper pursuit of the rejection of the null hypothesis; nor the alternate hypothesis of BSHW and MIS being one and the same. I think a definitive answer would only be found with sequencing.

And what of the ‘Perry the Monk’ version? Oy vey…

I agree with Roms that Afghan was here and being grown in the states pre-‘80s. (I don’t buy the alternate hypothesis though.) There’s a lot of focus on California & PNW, apparently forgetting the long-storied history of pot growing in Kentucky (hemp as early as 1775). A climate that would not be as conducive as California to finishing long flowering varieties. And many old-time growers kept operations to intrastate, rather than interstate, commerce. (Johnny Boone should’ve taken note.) So the lack of widespread public knowledge of Afghan - especially considering it likely at the time was used more as a tool than a standalone var - does not exclude its possibility/likelihood in the ‘60s and ‘70s.

My stance on it is: “whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent.” That said, I am just going to grow these plants, share some updates with y’all, and have my popcorn ready for the competing theories.

looks nice. did you get some color on stems? it was bred to have afghan short stature and chunky buds, so I doubt you will find some really sativa leaning in the look. I chose the tallest, but from cut it had stature of afghan. I am haze lover, so if it would smoke as afghan, I do not smoke it. definitely on sativa side, as far as effect goes. what I really like on it, is the fact it has long lasting effect, which is very remarkable trait for 11week hybrid. and taste is addictive. of course it needs some selection. I found one exceptional from 8 females. I am happy with it

Thanks MAHA. No real stem coloring at this point. Is this a trait that would show earlier as opposed to later? I hope to find at least one winner from the seven. If I do I plan to self her. I also selfed a cut of S.A.G.E. and will eventually grow ~10 of those to see what pops up and if a winner is in there, let some BSHW pollen fly.

... I am haze lover, so if it would smoke as afghan, I do not smoke it...

It is looking as though I have an established cut of each plant with the exception of #4. She was really slow to root and as soon as one of the three cuts rooted I transplanted her. She’s really struggling to take hold. Overall the seed plant is one of the happiest, if not the happiest. Her fans are smaller than the other plants, but with similar shaped blades. The difference from #1 can be seen in the background. The fun days are just around the corner now!

#4, day 31:

star crash do you have another house where you sleep?