The action of CBD vs. THC in cancer treatment

[gardenfather]

You misread my statement.

Research suggests that Cannabis helps the body cure itself by restoring apoptosis and denying the tumor new blood supplies. You are still cured and Cannabis was the instigator, but once restored, your own immune system did the heavy lifting.

Thank you now I understand

 

[Nickog]

Thanks Medicalmj! I use a method like yours. I started with a method like Rick Simpson and now have established a method for a much cleaner oil. Again, I fine tuned the process from posts here on this forum.
The one thing I don't do is first decarboxylase the cannabis. When I cook out the ethanol, I use a slow cooker. The temperature is the 'high' setting. It takes about 12 hours of cooking before there are no more bubbles. I question if the decarboxylase process is necessary since it cooks for 12 hours. I always thought it was necessary for tinctures only.

 

[medicalmj]

Thanks Medicalmj! I use a method like yours. I started with a method like Rick Simpson and now have established a method for a much cleaner oil. Again, I fine tuned the process from posts here on this forum.
The one thing I don't do is first decarboxylase the cannabis. When I cook out the ethanol, I use a slow cooker. The temperature is the 'high' setting. It takes about 12 hours of cooking before there are no more bubbles. I question if the decarboxylase process is necessary since it cooks for 12 hours. I always thought it was necessary for tinctures only.

Good point and one I didn't address very well. I agree that the slow cooker can decarb. but I use a small amount of everclear that evaps quickly and my cooker has a very low temp, so it may not be fully decarbed. Concerning whether it's necessary, it is for oral and topical use, regardless of how it's consumed (tincture or just swallowing the oil, perhaps in a capsule). The THCA needs to be converted to THC. Its a function of both temp and time.

Skunk Pharm has a great chart on the time/temp. function for decarbing. I suggest anyone taking oral/topical meds read and understand it to fully convert THCA to THC.

 

[soysoz]

Here's the deal, as I may be called upon to soon to help also.

The original studies of the anti-tumor properties were looking at THC. Additionally researches still conclude its the THC that is most responsible for shrinking tumors. However, for seizures its the CBD.

Now on to making medicine. I think the RS oil method is too crude and potentially harmful, not to mention dangerous. After experimenting with several extraction methods here's what I found to be the safest and most efficeint:

Make dry, mechanically produce kief and then mix into the strongest grain alcohol you can find, filter, freeze, refilter, then evaporate the alcohol. In more detail:

To make the hash I have done several methods but think the dry ice may be the best method. The key is to get it really dry and gently break up any buds like you would to pack a bowl but not ground up. Since it will be filtered again I use a 220 micron only. This will collect maximum amount but also brings plant material so it is low grade hash at this point.

Next, take the keif and add to a small amount of the grain alcohol. A fifth of grain alcohol should be able to handle a few ounces. I put one ounce of keif in about a pint and then shake it up and let it sit for a few minutes. Then strain through a coffee filter. Put this in the freezer overnight.

By freezing the hash liquor the fats and lipids coagulate. Now filter one more time through coffee filter. This needs to be evaporated. Since this is such a small volume it poses little risk and will evap quickly. You can use a rice cooker with fluid in it. Just set the container inside and couple hours later you got pure safe oil.

NO ISOPROPYL. And I can smell the iso in the RS method a month later so I don't wanna give that to anyone.

Finally, at some point this has to be decarboxylated. I prefer to do this first and it also dries it out really well. Put it in the oven at 200F for 45 min or 250F for 30 min. Then place in freezer until ready to use.

1. If you're decarboxylating for oral/topical then why are you winterizing? The plant lipids are not noxious to eat, only dangerous in their vaporized forms. FYI fats and waxes are lipids. No need to list them individually as if we're so professional that we can actually fraction them individually.

2. In addition, if it's for oral/topical use, there is no reason to just "break up" the buds. Might as well grind them up for a more efficient extraction and extract some chlorophyll too; it's good for you.

3. Isopropyl is not only easier to purge than ethanol (99% vs 95% azeotropic) but it is also less polar so you will still be able to extract the beneficial non-polars for your cancer patients.

4. In order to control your variables more precisely and be able to watch the state of decarboxylation, I see no reason not to do it after you extract, so that you can see the changes in the CO2 production of your oil, rather than guessing from looking at some bud in the oven.

 

[superglue]

saw this..it may be of interest

http://www.iflscience.com/health-an...-action-cannabidiol-against-lung-cancer-cells



"In recent years, there has been a growing interest in the use of cannabinoids, such as THC and cannabidiol (CBD), as potential anticancer agents. They have yielded promising results in both in vitro (cells in a dish) and in vivo (animal) studies, demonstrating a plethora of antitumor effects such as promoting cell death and decreasing cell migration and invasion. While they may look great on paper, support for their efficacy in clinical settings is lacking as no human cancer trials have so far been published. Furthermore, scientists actually know little about how they exert their effects on cancer cells.

A few weeks ago, light was shed on one mechanism of action thanks to a UK study that identified previously unknown signaling platforms that mediated the anticancer effects of THC. Some are hesitant about using THC, however, given the unwanted psychoactive side effects. CBD may therefore represent a more useful therapeutic agent.

In a recent study, published in Biochemical Pharmacology, scientists set out to unpick CBD’s antitumor properties in the lab. Previous work had found that cannabinoids increase the levels of a sticky protein called intercellular adhesion molecule 1 (ICAM-1) on lung cancer cells which decreases their invasiveness and ability to spread (metastasize). However, how they promote cancer cell death was unknown.

To address this gap in our knowledge, scientists used lung cancer cell lines and cells derived from a lung cancer patient and looked at how CBD-induced ICAM-1 affects adhesion of the cancer cells to killer white blood cells called lymphokine-activated killer (LAK) cells.

The researchers discovered that CBD enhanced the susceptibility of these tumor cells to stick to the LAK cells, subsequently promoting their lysis (destruction). Furthermore, when the researchers blocked ICAM-1 using a neutralizing antibody, the effects of CBD were reversed. Likewise, when the researchers used molecular scissors to chop up ICAM-1 mRNA (the blueprint used to make the ICAM-1 protein), or blocked the cannabinoid receptors that CBD binds to, the compound no longer caused the increase in cancer cell destruction.

The researchers then took this one step further by demonstrating that both THC and an endocannabinoid (a cannabinoid naturally produced by the body) mimic both promoted ICAM-1-dependent tumor cell killing. None of the 3 molecules tested in the study were found to increase the killing of non-tumor cells.

Taken together, these data suggest that the cannabinoid-induced ICAM-1 boost on lung cancer cells is responsible for the increased susceptibility of these cells to destruction by LAK cells. This therefore represents a previously unknown antitumor mechanism of cannabinoids, adding to our knowledge of how these compounds exert their effects on cancer cells in the lab. Whether these effects will be induced in humans with cancer, however, remains unknown. "

 

[Gray Wolf]

For a sip from a fire hose, take a look at what good ole Granny Stormcrow has amassed.

http://www.letfreedomgrow.com/cmu/GSCListJan2014CONDITIONS.pdf

 

[medicalmj]

1. If you're decarboxylating for oral/topical then why are you winterizing? The plant lipids are not noxious to eat, only dangerous in their vaporized forms. FYI fats and waxes are lipids. No need to list them individually as if we're so professional that we can actually fraction them individually.

2. In addition, if it's for oral/topical use, there is no reason to just "break up" the buds. Might as well grind them up for a more efficient extraction and extract some chlorophyll too; it's good for you.

3. Isopropyl is not only easier to purge than ethanol (99% vs 95% azeotropic) but it is also less polar so you will still be able to extract the beneficial non-polars for your cancer patients.

4. In order to control your variables more precisely and be able to watch the state of decarboxylation, I see no reason not to do it after you extract, so that you can see the changes in the CO2 production of your oil, rather than guessing from looking at some bud in the oven.

Great point on the grinding and one I am glad you brought up. I have done both and concur. I haven't had exact starting material to be 100% but I think you are spot on. I will surely go back to it and check efficiencies. Thanks!

I mix with everclear to increase potency. My keif is put through a 220 micron so it's pretty "dirty". I filter out about half of the net material.

As far as the oven decarb goes I refer to a chart for time/temp, not visuals. But this step could be eliminated as suggested, and have tried both ways. Right now it's so humid around here it helps with the getting it crispy.

I use a small amount of ethanol and my evap/purge is pretty quick. I am not to concerned about residual everclear like iso.
EDIT: Also, I don't have a vacuum right now so I can't purge via sub ATM pressure I just evap what I can since it's just everclear.

 

[Rolldaddy]

Interesting

 

[medicalmj]

1. If you're decarboxylating for oral/topical then why are you winterizing? The plant lipids are not noxious to eat, only dangerous in their vaporized forms. FYI fats and waxes are lipids. No need to list them individually as if we're so professional that we can actually fraction them individually.

2. In addition, if it's for oral/topical use, there is no reason to just "break up" the buds. Might as well grind them up for a more efficient extraction and extract some chlorophyll too; it's good for you.

3. Isopropyl is not only easier to purge than ethanol (99% vs 95% azeotropic) but it is also less polar so you will still be able to extract the beneficial non-polars for your cancer patients.

4. In order to control your variables more precisely and be able to watch the state of decarboxylation, I see no reason not to do it after you extract, so that you can see the changes in the CO2 production of your oil, rather than guessing from looking at some bud in the oven.

Won't use Iso since 99% unavailable locally, gonna stick with 190 proof everclear, so...

So what would you say to forcing the material through a window screen and discarding the stems, then doing the dry ice and bucket routine through a 220 micron mesh bag. Then mixing that with 190 proof everclear (small amount), mix/shake then pour through coffee filter. Now evaporate the ethanol.

OR

Should I (please suggest best method) break up material and follow the RS method albeit with 190 booze not a non-food grade solvent.

You have good points and I want to be efficient. Thanks!

 

[soysoz]

Won't use Iso since 99% unavailable locally, gonna stick with 190 proof everclear, so...

So what would you say to forcing the material through a window screen and discarding the stems, then doing the dry ice and bucket routine through a 220 micron mesh bag. Then mixing that with 190 proof everclear (small amount), mix/shake then pour through coffee filter. Now evaporate the ethanol.

OR

Should I (please suggest best method) break up material and follow the RS method albeit with 190 booze not a non-food grade solvent.

You have good points and I want to be efficient. Thanks!

I would suggest ordering some 99% iso off of amazon for a fraction of the price it costs to do QWETs.

 

[medicalmj]

Thanks everyone for the info. I currently have 3 people who have asked me to make them Rick Simpson Oil as their last hope. I am happy to help and want to document the treatment to add to the data base of (hopefully) people cured by cannabis. If I am going to do this, I want to do it right! All 3 have different types of cancer and all 3 have been told they have less than a year to live. Thanks to this forum and years of experience, I believe I make as pure an oil that anyone can make. My concern for all three is how can anyone eat a full gram daily! When I make eatables , one gram makes 20 treats. I personally have trouble eating one of my treats, much less the idea of the strength of 20!

Hey are you making still making and are they taking oil? I have similiar situation right now for 1 patient. She has a brain tumors and will be getting the largest removed within days afterwards she will be taking the oil. Test results for the RSO will be back from the lab by weeks end. Here's the plan to get her to 1 g/day:

First, discuss how soon they need to get there. 4-6 weeks might just be too long for some. But if they can wait that long, I'd shoot for 4 weeks and adjust if necessary.

Next, find a reference dose, that is the strongest dose without flipping out. So a really strong high but doable. This is where YOU/ME have to try it before we give it. Couple days ago I took 0.05g of my RSO that was injected by oral syringe into a gel cap and weighed. I only had "0" caps, which weigh 0.1g so it's just a smear. Then I went to a party with friends. Glad I didn't take 0.1g like I had first planned. Was very stoned and didn't talk much but was overall quite comfortable. BUT I need test results on THC for that dose to be meaningful for you.

Now it's just a mathematical equation. I am figuring that as I type using trendline in excel. I want the equation to not be linear since the increase in dosage will increase slowly at first and faster once acclimated(build tolerance) to the effects. Gotta go..Will have equation for you later today.

 

[blastfrompast]

So what about administering it before bed...

I discovered it takes my body about 2 hours to fully feel the effects of eating my QP(bud)/500ml coocnut oil edibles.It ramps up for an hour after that, then peaks, then slowly comes down. With 4oz of bud in 500ml of coconut oil it is fairly potent you could say.

So when I was first trying out the coconut oil, I thought it was a bit weak, as I was eating it 1.5hours before bed....I slept great, and it wasn't until I tried some at 9AM that I discovered how strong it really was.

Is this an option..ie a Small dose during the day....High dose before bed, sleep thru most of the effects?

I am not sure if people get nauseous from RSO, I have only used it at the 0.1g-0.2g smear dosage rate when my neck is really bothering me.

 

[Nickog]

My eatables have .05 grams oil. For me, it is too much. I eat 1/3 to 1/2 and pass out for 10 hours. I never had a strong tolerance. I made the oil and the patients are about to start the routine. I was thinking of making a chart and have them fill it in with doses, times of day, time of last meal, mood, etc. I read that it takes time to develop a tolerance, such as over a month. The purpose of spreading out the dose throughout the day is to have a consistent level of THC and such attaching the cancer cells throughout the day, plus less stress on the liver which filters everything.
I wish I could test the whole thing on myself but I need to be functional! I don't have the answers but I will add to this post at my people start their treatments.

 

[medicalmj]

Still waiting on lab results and I decided to go with a linear equation:

f(t) = 0.0315(t) + 0.1185

f(t) is the dose in gram at time t, for the whole day
(t) is the day

So at day 1: f(1) = 0.0315(1) + .1185 = .15 grams
So, at day 28: f(28) = .0315(28) + .1185 = 1.0005 grams

You can also take the integral to determine how much oil you will need by a particular day.

So by day 14 you will need (or will have consumed) a total of:
[(14)^2 *(1/2) * 0.0315] + [.1185*(14)] = 4.75 grams

 

[Bongstar420]

The "government" does not have a specific position. The anti-cannabis position you refer to is the DEA. The DEA is part of the "government" and is not the "government".

Aside from multiple other incorrect concepts in this thread (some at the support of "Dr's" I guess), 1 singular reference to help on getting started to correct things:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17621270

"From what I've see thus far, cannabis doesn't cure anything,"

So all the study's that these researches have done, saying that cannabis stops the growth of cancer and eats the cancer is not true? I know nothing is a cure, we cant even cure the common cold. But if it can stop the growth or eat the cancer that's good news no? unless this is all false and those articles are all BS. Just wondering Im not a dr/research or any of the above just writing what I read. Also "government" <-- Bs Says that there is no medical benifits to Cannabis. This must be 1000000% false obv coming from their mouths. Ive seen it from a personal point its medically helped people but just ease the pain of cancer but help control Parkinson disease and also made this cripple person walk when smoking weed.

Thanks

 

[medicalmj]

The "government" does not have a specific position. The anti-cannabis position you refer to is the DEA. The DEA is part of the "government" and is not the "government".

Aside from multiple other incorrect concepts in this thread (some at the support of "Dr's" I guess), 1 singular reference to help on getting started to correct things:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17621270

I think you are splitting hairs in regards to the DEA not being the government. For example, the national cancer institute recently scrubbed its previous information on cannabis's antitumotal effects. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/russ-belville/national-cancer-institute_b_842631.html
So who forced them to do it? The DEA has as much power as congress in regards to cannabis so they may not be congress but they have the authority to do what they want.

 

[nan]

This is so helpful. I grew high CBD strains this year and am getting things calculated and laid out to make oil for edibles for myself and my folks. I use 190 Everclear, but am thinking about getting the organic grape ethanol, but have seen discussion about it not being the best for the process. Any input? The ISO is ABSOLUTELY out of the question as is BHO for my standards of food safety.

My strain I intend to use tested 5%THC, 8%CBD. How would I calculate the proportions to get to the dosage suggested? I would be thrilled to keep the ratio as it is in the bud, but it would be OK to go to 2:1 if it has to.

BTW, I am not a scientist, just doing this in my kitchen. I am skilled in food prep, and preservation from many years of doing it for my family. Some years scratch camp cooking for hay crews, mining and logging crew camps.

 

[medicalmj]

This is so helpful. I grew high CBD strains this year and am getting things calculated and laid out to make oil for edibles for myself and my folks. I use 190 Everclear, but am thinking about getting the organic grape ethanol, but have seen discussion about it not being the best for the process. Any input? The ISO is ABSOLUTELY out of the question as is BHO for my standards of food safety.

My strain I intend to use tested 5%THC, 8%CBD. How would I calculate the proportions to get to the dosage suggested? I would be thrilled to keep the ratio as it is in the bud, but it would be OK to go to 2:1 if it has to.

BTW, I am not a scientist, just doing this in my kitchen. I am skilled in food prep, and preservation from many years of doing it for my family. Some years scratch camp cooking for hay crews, mining and logging crew camps.

Put your everclear in the freezer. Dry the herb til its brittle. You may need a dehydrator or put in oven at lowest for a few minutes. Then placed on a screen and push it through by rubbing it in. You may want to crumble buds a bit first.

Put this into a large container with a large lid so that it doesn't consume more than 1/2 the container. I use a 1 gallon plastic jar that had banana peppers in it, the kind you get at the bulk section or in the food industry. Then put into freezer.

After both alcohol and weed is nice and cold pour the alcohol into container so that it just covers. Put on lid and shake it vigorously. Let rest for a few minutes in the freezer. Take out and strain. You can extract a little more by adding some more alcohol to the used plant material and repeating. Now you will have to evaporate the alcohol.

A rice cooker works well just keep an eye on the temps. I prefer to go lower and slower than what the Rick Simpson method explains. I think it's to hot and converts more to CBN, which has not yet been shown to be effective, unlike CBD and THC.

Go to "cure your own cancer" for more ideas.

 

[nan]

Put your everclear in the freezer. Dry the herb til its brittle. You may need a dehydrator or put in oven at lowest for a few minutes. Then placed on a screen and push it through by rubbing it in. You may want to crumble buds a bit first.

Put this into a large container with a large lid so that it doesn't consume more than 1/2 the container. I use a 1 gallon plastic jar that had banana peppers in it, the kind you get at the bulk section or in the food industry. Then put into freezer.

After both alcohol and weed is nice and cold pour the alcohol into container so that it just covers. Put on lid and shake it vigorously. Let rest for a few minutes in the freezer. Take out and strain. You can extract a little more by adding some more alcohol to the used plant material and repeating. Now you will have to evaporate the alcohol.

A rice cooker works well just keep an eye on the temps. I prefer to go lower and slower than what the Rick Simpson method explains. I think it's to hot and converts more to CBN, which has not yet been shown to be effective, unlike CBD and THC.

Go to "cure your own cancer" for more ideas.

Thank you. I am so grateful!!

 

[Bongstar420]

People confuse agencies within the government for the entire government. This is very problematic for correctly understanding the systems in which we live.


Additionally, its common for Americans to mistake the voting public as not a part of the government. The only people in America that are not part of the "government" are the people who do not vote.


The DEA will do what congress orders. IF CONGRESS DISBANDS THE DEA, they will disband. The DEA cannot tell congress anything. Congress dictates what the DEA can do, does do, and if it will continue to exist. The DEA has no official power to dictate anything to congress. The article is talking about two agencies squabbling with each other which is a very common thing. The DEA has an internal policy which requires them to support only prohibition positions independent of evidence. They have to do something or their positions will be seeing new suitors. Just because the Cancer Institute bowed down doesn't mean it is an actual legitimate exercise of authority by the DEA> many government actions are actually illegal. All that matters is that the people involved don't understand the totality of legal and true. Federal prohibition of drugs is actually illegal based on objective evidence. How many people will actually see that through-0. People are not willing to risk their careers so a bunch of drug monkies can have it on easy street.

Why did Ethanol require an Amendment to the Constitution while many common, less toxic plant drugs did not?
Caucasians drink ethanol. Mexicans and Africans consumed Cannabis and Cocaine. If the public didn't support it, there would be no drug war.

A brief introduction to the subject:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_on_Drugs#Legality

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22963825

http://www.google.com/patents/US6630507

Prohibition is a commonly supported position. Most of the people I meet agree that Coke dealers should go to jail. They *used* to feel the same about pot dealers.

Drug lifestylers are a minority and that is reflected by the laws of the land.

DEA says one thing. NCBI and DOH position's are antithetical to the DEA. Both are 100% government agencies. THE DEA IS NOT THE GOVERNMENT. It is a small part of it.

OH...FYI, much of this is merely looking for reasons to get high.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7948106
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7987974

I think you are splitting hairs in regards to the DEA not being the government. For example, the national cancer institute recently scrubbed its previous information on cannabis's antitumotal effects. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/russ-belville/national-cancer-institute_b_842631.html
So who forced them to do it? The DEA has as much power as congress in regards to cannabis so they may not be congress but they have the authority to do what they want.