Terra Preta - Dark Soil - Experiment

[Guest]

According to this doc, coco peat would be your best bet as opposed to wood... i'll try and scrounge up more information tomorrow, kinda tired right now

http://books.google.com/books?id=xq...r=&sig=KK3F0L4l0UAFV2XdWFP9-HhSSsE#PPA1032,M1

..and please please please take down that wiki quote... it is a complete bitch slap to science and the truth... there are other journals that actually describe the science behind their soil... with tools like spectrometers and etc.. there is no need for the mysticism anymore.

The only true debate is how much of an influence time had on any samples taken for research... a compost pile left untouched for hundreds of hundreds of years is going to be dank... if anyone has a time machine, I would love to borrow it for a little while

 

[SilverSurfer_OG]

According to this doc, coco peat would be your best bet as opposed to wood... i'll try and scrounge up more information tomorrow, kinda tired right now

http://books.google.com/books?id=xq...r=&sig=KK3F0L4l0UAFV2XdWFP9-HhSSsE#PPA1032,M1

..and please please please take down that wiki quote... it is a complete bitch slap to science and the truth... there are other journals that actually describe the science behind their soil... with tools like spectrometers and etc.. there is no need for the mysticism anymore.

The only true debate is how much of an influence time had on any samples taken for research... a compost pile left untouched for hundreds of hundreds of years is going to be dank... if anyone has a time machine, I would love to borrow it for a little while

Wiki isnt my first choice for info but it is pretty increbible that an ancient civilisation was supported using terra preta... and that it is still very fertile and can "regrow"... wheres the mysticism in that?

Anyway, whatever... charcoal works.

 

[1love1earth]

wow, those are seriously big for being in such small containers.

I can't imagine what could happen if given a large bed of TP to grow in.

I mean, that's so heavy for such a small pot.

 

[MrFista]

I highly recommend adding bone and pottery fragments as well as charcoal if you can.

I get bones from what I eat, let the cat strip them, then the ants, then dry them out for a while, and smash them up and add to the mix.

My mix is growing faster than hydro. And faster than a TP mix without bone and pottery.

All measures aproximate.

For 100 litres of mix.

10 litres charcoal.
2.5 litres bone fragments.
2.5 litres pottery.
0.5 litres dolomite lime.
0.5 litres bone meal.
34 litres compost.
40 litres topsoil.
10 litres clay subsoil.

Best dirt mix I've found so far. I would add more bones but it takes a while to eat all them critters.

 

[jaykush]

looks like a good mix Fista, soil growing faster than hydro is no big deal happens all the time if your doing shit right. where do you get your charcoal from?

 

[Suby]

BUMP!

I was just perusing for my own growth. great info in here.

S

 

[MrFista]

looks like a good mix Fista, soil growing faster than hydro is no big deal happens all the time if your doing shit right. where do you get your charcoal from?

Well, though I agree with most everything you say in this forum jaykush, I've never had soil grow faster than hydro before. This I believe is mainly attributable to environmental control (nurture).

But I am still a learner with soil. TP makes good soil easy for beginners.

The charcoal was from hardwood and contained some brownish coals, not quite done type thing. A lower temperature pyrolisation of charcoal has unique properties...

Above 450 degrees most of the impurities are burnt off in the char making process, to the tune of around 50 000 ppm. When pyrolised around 400 degrees however, the impurities are as low as 1 ppm. The difference is clearly substantial.

The impurities left in the wood are plant resins terpines etc. These are readily digested by bacteria - as readily as sugar!

Pollution = bacterial food = plant food.

There are many types of char and companies on the new TP bandwagon getting research to align with their products. Don't be fooled. Scientists for the most part are paid to back up that which they work on, and they do exactly that. So many TP projects including NPK ferts - WTF!!!!! Will they ever learn...

Low temp pyrolised woodchar = superior char.

How an individual might make lower temperature char for themselves is the tricky bit. I'm no engineer unfortunately, but I'm sure someone here might have a few ideas.

Innoculating your char, bones and pottery is a good move. In the compost pile or with a compost tea, it helps establish the micro-herd that much faster.

Alfalfa or other legumes are great for starting TP plots as the initial addition of TP can lower nitrogen levels in soil. I believe the bacteria bloom so well in TP conditions the nitrogen is still present, just that it is taken up in the nitrogen cycle by bacteria.

Save the planet and the farm - hell yeah! TP is awesome!

Edit - The link provided at the top of the page suggests biomass materials for active charcoal, this is not what is sought in a char created for soil.

Low temp pyrolised char adds soil nutrition via plant resins (pollutants).
Activated charcoal soaks up pollutants.

After time the activated charcoal will be 'full', or glutted, with bacteria and nutrients, and then it should perform very well. Until then it may drain your soil of nitrogen and other nutrition, and subsequently push the pH up.

To the hobby TP gardener this poses problems. To fully realise the potential of TP - low temp pyrolised wood char is preferable. But access to the correct char is patchy, to put it generously.

Innoculation again springs to mind. To err on the side of caution.

Regardless of the char you use it will benefit from pre-treatment before addition to your soil.

Again - placing the TP ingredients of char pottery and bone in a compost pile or compost tea. (with some kelp and EWC and molasses would be best). The idea is to glut the material with organic matter so it doesn't drain it from your soil.

Most gardeners here know how to feed their soil. TP reacts just like any other organic soil to some tender loving care.

Like other organic gardens, Terra Preta mixes love compost, teas, legumes, blood and bone, molasses, worm products, kelp, sand, clay, etc.

 

[hardhat22]

Really interesting thread guys.Thanks.

http://cgi.ebay.com/15-Pound-Bag-of...ryZ20540QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Peace

 

[jaykush]

ahh good stuff mr fista, even with your 3 posts seems like your doin shit right.

haha dont worry, most people think im nuts when i say soil grows = hydro in speed and yield. its all about getting soil mix dialed in for specific strains. you are right though most of the time soil is slower in general, MOST is the key word

i think TP in the compost process is real good. i always add chunks at the bottom of my pile and also throughout.

 

[MrFista]

Dignan provided this link in the culturing beneficial nematodes thread.

Soil Food Web

It provides the simplest explanation for the vanishing nitrate in various TP experiments that I've seen.

"When bacteria and fungi multiply they gather up free nitrogen from the soil and convert it to protein in their bodies."

"Soil bacteria... need a lot of nitrogen and they grab it quickly (more quickly than plants) so they often go after some of the residual nitrogen from fertilisers, if present."

 

[jaykush]

you left this out though Fista, and its really important.

"They retain nutrients like N, P and S. In the soil as bacterial biomass"

nutrients in biomass which in turn gets used by the plant when the biomass is used up by the microlife.

one reason TP imo has more long term effects compared to soils now days.

 

[MrFista]

Just had a look at some soil in a TP hole I made outdoors. It grew a lovely fast tom in season and has been out of commission for a month (cut down the tom). The hole is about 6 months old and was mulched with dry leaves when first dug.

All the rootmass of the tomato is completely broken down and in approx 1 1/2 sq ft hole I found 12 large (with rings for procreation) earthworms. no red wrigglers were present.

The average for mature earthworms here is 2 per sq ft. That's 4 times the average earthworms in TP with a leaf mulch, good stuff!

Many other insects were present, Lilies, pansies, clover, alfalfa and some grasses had all begun growing. The soil was very rich with life it was like the organic part of the soil had been greatly enhanced. Prior to adding TP the soil had been lawn on clay.

 

[MrFista]

BUMP

It's been almost a year since I started playing with Terra Preta mixes.

The hole I mentioned in the above post has had all the terra preta removed for another spot and some crappy clay soil to fill it in. The edges of the TP, where traces are left have about 20 plum tree shoots from a tree that has been dead and dug out for 2 years. This is the only spot they've grown. The grass is higher than surrounding it, there are seven species of wildflowers, these are only 1 sq foot holes, all the action is on the perimeter of them. The crappy soil I replaced in the holes is selecting weeds, after months without growing anything, should be flowers on that soon too.

The TP soil promotes life in a big way even after you take it away! Traces of it left...

Another mix I have that includes tiny percentages of bone and pottery, with about 5% char, is now running a third cycle and it is really sweet. I have only fed once 1/4 strength EJ bloom/meta K in it's entire life this run. I water with molasses and worm rum. This is a weed grow, and it is pumping hard.

Am needing less and less nutes as I go with this stuff, I think in the next 'recycled soil' run I'll barely need to amend/add to it at all.

How are your mixes going folks?

 

[jaykush]

hey fista

i was hoping i was not the only one still messin with TP still. the thread got pushed deep i figured everyone forgot. everything is going real well here despite the fact i cant get the amount of char i need. i can only make small batches for testing now. i need a cheap efficient way to make bulk. with as little chance as possible of anything else catching fire.

i am working on a mix that has; compost( with charcoal that went in half way through the compost process then set to "cure" for 3 months) sand, dried sifted clay, and pottery shards as a base mix, then amending with lots of goodies and keeping them all separate for easy observations(though most are not cannabis). seen nothing but good results time after time.

i like your one sq. ft. thing. i might try that. so far everything ive done is in pots with mostly the soil im planning to amend come time to go full scale.


how are you making your char?

 

[MrFista]

Make it - Tins inside tins. I have them in my fireplace the gas ignites after a while so I get a smaller hotter fire, heat the house, make some dinner, and free char. I've charred avocado pits, orange and lemon peel, cat vomit! And mainly wood scraps from tree prunings too small for firewood/useful stakes.

It's all bubbled up on the bark with charred tars when I pull it out, good stuff.

I've been putting wee spots all over as I can't make enough either. I want to get more into my composting so it get's spread around but it's so good I'm stingy with it...

I had 2 passionfruit, the one without died in winter, the one with 5% flourished.

 

[ThaiPhoon]

Hey guys, I am still mixing rice husk charcoal in my mix here. I mix it in at about 10% to 25% or so. My TP soil mixes are always re-used. I just add more compost and a little more charcoal if required. I found some local pumice, and have been adding that into the mix too. I have cut way back on ferts. I use neem based ferts and guano. Also expermental bio-nutes. Things just keep getting better.

 

[Smurf]

They're lookin sweet thaiphoon,,,, man I'm hanging for this season to kick in!

I didnt think something as good as tp would just die.... at least not until everyone here had exhausted all the possibilities.

I've been going thru all my pots from last yrs outdoor grow,,,, after cutting the plants at the stem base I usually push them to one side stacked on top of one another. All of them are exposed to the elements, rain etc.... the first thing I noticed is the root mass from the previous plants had almost disappeared,,, but the best part was the worm activity has gone thru the roof... I know a few cocoons were in the original mix but now there are 2 species in these pots which includes your average garden worms. I didn't put them in there. Yesterday I collected 2 handfuls of worms from the one 12" pot. Admittedly the mix is roughly 80 - 90% compost + 10 -20% charcoal. Normally I only see this much worm activity in my garden patch.

I do have some pots with no charcoal in the mix but they only had max. 3 - 4 worms. All of the pots were in the same location & none of them had dried out.

almost forgot,,, I started soaking some more charcoal in humic acid and another batch is just composting in a separate heap. Recently I read about a nursery in the States that exclusively composts their charcoal with urine & manure for "x" months.

re:activated charcoal
The use of special manufacturing techniques results in highly porous charcoals that have surface areas of 300-2,000 square metres per gram.

 

[ThaiPhoon]

I have had the same experience on the increase in little worms. I had left some pots to age as you did smurf. Recently I've just been cutting the stem and emptying the pot into the recycling tub. I smash most of the soil out of the root mass, and heave the roots to the compost bin. They remaining roots don't last too long, within a few weeks they are just part of the mix!

I have been composting elephant shit and rice husk charcoal with great results. I spray this mixture with EM once in a while too. Then just add this compost into the mix!

 

[C21H30O2]

i am thinking of adding charcoal to my worm-casting the idea is that to make the most of charcoal it must be composted and reused so that it gains organic matter over time. hopefully it will result in a mix that will get more fertile with continued use.

 

[jaykush]

Make it - Tins inside tins. I have them in my fireplace the gas ignites after a while so I get a smaller hotter fire, heat the house, make some dinner, and free char. I've charred avocado pits, orange and lemon peel, cat vomit! And mainly wood scraps from tree prunings too small for firewood/useful stakes.

i have been making it on my bbq, after im done cooking, ill load up a bunch of tins inside of tins full of wood scraps i got. works for test shit, but no where near enough for what i really want to do. lmao cat vomit.... you always try/do the weirdest shit. what ever happened to the seal piss?

DAMN Thaiphoon, those ladies are lookin healthy and nice. i love how u got things goin over there, good use of local cheap materials if i ever seen it.

C21H30O2- i throw all my char into my compost right after the intiail "heat" stage. once it cools down to about 100 or so i toss the char in, then let it cook for a few months, comes out SPECTACULAR!! plants LOVE IT!!!