GoldCountryGuy
Member
Wouldn't the size of your mound, exterior pathogens and root zone control be considered things that restrict?
Strain selection for outdoor 2012....
- Thread starter Yes4Prop215
- Start date
Wouldn't the size of your mound, exterior pathogens and root zone control be considered things that restrict?
plastochron
Member
don't forget physical and chemical soil heterogeneity... don't want to run into a hardpan or patch of heavy metal contamination
G
guest8905
is the north 101 the new name for the betsy?
Z
Z-ro
as far as mendo goes, id say 99% of the 99 plant gardens were never registered under the ziptie program anyway. none of my neighbors are doing less than 90, half of them have 99+ in the depo right now.
V
Veg N Out
Stickky -
No. The North 101 is a NL S1 x Trainwreck ...The Old Betsy won't make it in to the garden this year. I lost the Cherry Afwreck and while that plant was phenomenal and a high yielder, it did not come in as early as I was hoping for. The North 101 is ready 9/14.
GoldCountryGuy -
The plants roots follow the natural shape of the mound and drive the roots in to the clay once they work through the rototilled layer because they're following the shape of the mound and driving the roots in to the ground following the path of the nutrients and water leeching down and outward along the shape of the mound.
Exterior pathogens? Can you please be more specific? Are you talking about root or stem rot ? Hemp Canker? Charcoal Rot? All can be avoided and planned for. The main reason why cannabis farmers are running in to these pathogenic outbreaks is because they are growing the same cultivar in the same soil over and over again. There is no other crop that is grown this way anywhere in the world. Once Cannabis farmers begin planting other stuff in their beds like winter grasses and applying the correct bio-remediation program soil borne pathogens are not an issue in any way shape or form.
Not sure what you mean by root zone control...Are you able to control the roots from doing anything but grow unless you employ some kind of device like a smart pot? The only thing I want to promote my roots to do is to grow big and healthy.. My mounds are just under 4 yards(800 gallon) a piece this year and at that size, there is nothing to stop them from just getting massive.
plastochron -
What kind of property did you purchase or rent that heavy metals contamination is an issue? An old lumber mill or mining claim? Planting directly in to the ground is not the way to go. Above ground in a mound , the roots will follow the path of water and nutrients and drive themselves in to the clay with no problem. You can trust me on this
FWIW Clay is the most nutrient rich soil on the face of the planet, it just needs organic matter and biodiversity !!
The only time I would consider growing in a breathing container and NOT a smart pot is when I did not have a flat area to bring in the equipment needed to properly do a garden up with mounds...The smart pot fabric is garbage and the product itself is drastically over priced. Spend that money on more soil!!
No. The North 101 is a NL S1 x Trainwreck ...The Old Betsy won't make it in to the garden this year. I lost the Cherry Afwreck and while that plant was phenomenal and a high yielder, it did not come in as early as I was hoping for. The North 101 is ready 9/14.
GoldCountryGuy -
The plants roots follow the natural shape of the mound and drive the roots in to the clay once they work through the rototilled layer because they're following the shape of the mound and driving the roots in to the ground following the path of the nutrients and water leeching down and outward along the shape of the mound.
Exterior pathogens? Can you please be more specific? Are you talking about root or stem rot ? Hemp Canker? Charcoal Rot? All can be avoided and planned for. The main reason why cannabis farmers are running in to these pathogenic outbreaks is because they are growing the same cultivar in the same soil over and over again. There is no other crop that is grown this way anywhere in the world. Once Cannabis farmers begin planting other stuff in their beds like winter grasses and applying the correct bio-remediation program soil borne pathogens are not an issue in any way shape or form.
Not sure what you mean by root zone control...Are you able to control the roots from doing anything but grow unless you employ some kind of device like a smart pot? The only thing I want to promote my roots to do is to grow big and healthy.. My mounds are just under 4 yards(800 gallon) a piece this year and at that size, there is nothing to stop them from just getting massive.
plastochron -
What kind of property did you purchase or rent that heavy metals contamination is an issue? An old lumber mill or mining claim? Planting directly in to the ground is not the way to go. Above ground in a mound , the roots will follow the path of water and nutrients and drive themselves in to the clay with no problem. You can trust me on this
FWIW Clay is the most nutrient rich soil on the face of the planet, it just needs organic matter and biodiversity !!
The only time I would consider growing in a breathing container and NOT a smart pot is when I did not have a flat area to bring in the equipment needed to properly do a garden up with mounds...The smart pot fabric is garbage and the product itself is drastically over priced. Spend that money on more soil!!
plastochron
Member
Aluminum and iron are the second and third most abundant minerals in soil; the former is toxic and the latter can be found in toxic concentrations depending on pH. Red clay is full of iron oxide. You don't want to grow in that shit. You are right that clay can be a major component of agriculturally productive soil, but a) there are many different kinds of clay and some of them are not conducive to maximizing productivity, b) you may encounter a hardpan underneath the surface layer that you tilled that will interfere with drainage and aeration, and c) you run the risk of pathogen inoculation from the native soil. I am not going to say that mounds don't work swell at certain locations, but at many locations you are better off putting 800gal of media into a fabric pot or a planter box than a mound. Now if you are in your 3rd plus year of building up rows or mounds that you know drain well and couldn't work better, then shit yea swear by them... maybe you should convince us with a side by side comparison with a couple reps of 800gal custom made fabric planter boxes (you are definitely correct about the overpriced fabric pots btw).
V
Veg N Out
I think that you are trying to be a little more scientific than your understanding and experience allows. In theory your points are quasi valid, but in practice you'll find that your concerns are non issues with correct cultural method.
Cannabis grown from cutting does not make roots deeper than about 24" , the built up mound is 18" and the rototiller loosens about 8" of native soil giving us 26" of prepared depth to work with. Up to 18"-20" depth is where you want to be tending, this is the zone that you are able to maintain the highest oxygen level in the soil. The root structure of Cannabis is also a lateral one, as long as they are following the nutrients and water going down the shape of the mound in to the soil below the roots will burst through any clay any obstruction in their way. This is why the mound is superior to a hole, when the roots grow laterally and hit the hard unprepared native soil they get restricted, getting the roots to follow water/nutrients in to the soil is a great way to build a very strong root mass...
Last year I had a garden with 300 fabric pots and my other gardens were in mounds. The garden in the smart pots slowed down first (hit the side of the smart pots) had the most infection from Hemp Canker because the roots were unable to keep spreading , used the most water, and also had the highest fertilizer input. The overall average yield of the smart pot garden was also the lowest average yield. The highest yielding individual plant came out of a 300 gallon smart pot but the best average yields came from the gardens in mounds
Good luck this season.
Cannabis grown from cutting does not make roots deeper than about 24" , the built up mound is 18" and the rototiller loosens about 8" of native soil giving us 26" of prepared depth to work with. Up to 18"-20" depth is where you want to be tending, this is the zone that you are able to maintain the highest oxygen level in the soil. The root structure of Cannabis is also a lateral one, as long as they are following the nutrients and water going down the shape of the mound in to the soil below the roots will burst through any clay any obstruction in their way. This is why the mound is superior to a hole, when the roots grow laterally and hit the hard unprepared native soil they get restricted, getting the roots to follow water/nutrients in to the soil is a great way to build a very strong root mass...
Last year I had a garden with 300 fabric pots and my other gardens were in mounds. The garden in the smart pots slowed down first (hit the side of the smart pots) had the most infection from Hemp Canker because the roots were unable to keep spreading , used the most water, and also had the highest fertilizer input. The overall average yield of the smart pot garden was also the lowest average yield. The highest yielding individual plant came out of a 300 gallon smart pot but the best average yields came from the gardens in mounds
Good luck this season.
G
guest8905
right on, sounds nice
GoldCountryGuy
Member
GoldCountryGuy -
The plants roots follow the natural shape of the mound and drive the roots in to the clay once they work through the rototilled layer because they're following the shape of the mound and driving the roots in to the ground following the path of the nutrients and water leeching down and outward along the shape of the mound.
I understand that. I grow multiple ways, always comparing and trying to improve. My locations aren't exactly level, although im not on a steep hill either. I use my soil from the previous years to make a flat spot to set my 200/300 gallon pots on. The roots grow right into it, by the end of the season a huge network of roots is established. This leads me to believe the oxygen levels are higher than one might think under my pots. Which has me thinking that 0-18 inches is not exactly where i need to focus all my energy regarding soil.
Exterior pathogens? Can you please be more specific? Are you talking about root or stem rot ? Hemp Canker? Charcoal Rot? All can be avoided and planned for. The main reason why cannabis farmers are running in to these pathogenic outbreaks is because they are growing the same cultivar in the same soil over and over again. There is no other crop that is grown this way anywhere in the world. Once Cannabis farmers begin planting other stuff in their beds like winter grasses and applying the correct bio-remediation program soil borne pathogens are not an issue in any way shape or form.
I'm not trying to get more specific as it could be anything. Common sense just tells me that the "main" rootzone is at higher risk to be infiltrated by anything negative when its not contained. I appreciate and understand that proper planning and the correct tools on hand. I haven't studied this, just going by my gut is all.
Not sure what you mean by root zone control...Are you able to control the roots from doing anything but grow unless you employ some kind of device like a smart pot? The only thing I want to promote my roots to do is to grow big and healthy.. My mounds are just under 4 yards(800 gallon) a piece this year and at that size, there is nothing to stop them from just getting massive.
Well I suggest the smart pot idea as the key to controlling the rootzone. Whether it be accurate watering requirements, feeding, or making sure that I've applied my preventatives in the exact zone where an issue may arise. I'm not suggesting that a 800 gallon mound wont produce an excellent plant. Some of the largest/heaviest plants I've grown have been in mounds exceeding 10 yards of soil. This soil being reused, as Id be silly to put ten yards into one plant, or would I?
I appreciate your input and would be very interested in this years mulching ideas/techniques if you have the time to elaborate.
GCG
I hear you, believe me when I say that I would dearly love to grow in 100 gallon pots/growbags but as cool as my neighbors are I think they would draw the line at 6 giant sequoias growing in my yard.
If I keep it low key they turn a blind eye as I'm a very good neighbor to them all, better not to step on anybody's toes.
G
guest8905
true very true...good luck
sierraskunk
Member
V
Veg N Out
I grew about 80% Betsy last year. Great plant. Yields varied from 4 to 7 lbs per plant and she came in Oct 1-10. I just grew so much of it last year that I can't see myself doing it again this year...Just need to switch up what I'm tending to.
I also think the Betsy can get a little brown if left out too long / gets hit with weather...and I frown on brown.
I also think the Betsy can get a little brown if left out too long / gets hit with weather...and I frown on brown.
plastochron
Member
Veg, I will try to take your criticism of my understanding and experience with a grain of salt. I am mostly being hypercritical of your comments because you are expounding the benefits of mound growing without acknowledging that it is not the best management option in certain circumstances. I have successfully grown in mounds in years past and have seen examples of very well executed mound grows (akin to Butte's last year).
Although roots of cloned plans may only explore a couple feet depth in soil, water will continue to drain downwards (even if you have designed your mounds to promote lateral drainage this will still occur to some degree). If there is a hardpan underneath the layer of clay that you tilled, this will eventually restrict drainage. While the restriction of drainage may not be important in the middle of summer when extensive soil evaporation is occurring, lack of evapotranspiration and high RH come Oct can induce hypoxic/anoxic soil conditions, which could lead to a bunch of different biotic (soilborne pathogens) and abiotic (no O2 for root respiration, lack of O2 induces microbes to use other compounds as electron acceptors, can result in build up of toxic compounds) stresses.
In terms of O2 availability, you cannot deny that smartpots and airpots allow for more air diffusion to the root zone, thus increasing the rates of root and aerobic microbial respiration. While this may be seen as a negative phenomena from certain POV (e.g. increased rate of soil organic carbon loss), it is more often seen as a benefit due to increased growth rates.
I will acknowledge that planting in amended native soil or mounds may be the best management option for certain conditions. It is definitely the more 'sustainable' strategy. The largest plants I have ever personally witnessed were grown in 1000gal fabric pots... 10+ p ave all day (even for cultivars that people say max out at 2 to 3 p).
Lastly, you really cannot compare plants grown in 800 gal mounds vs 300 gal smartpots (apples vs. cherries). I submit a friendly challenge that you prove your claims that mounds are the business by doing a side by side with a fabric container of the same volume. BTW what strain did you rock in the 300 gal that gave you the highest yield?
Although roots of cloned plans may only explore a couple feet depth in soil, water will continue to drain downwards (even if you have designed your mounds to promote lateral drainage this will still occur to some degree). If there is a hardpan underneath the layer of clay that you tilled, this will eventually restrict drainage. While the restriction of drainage may not be important in the middle of summer when extensive soil evaporation is occurring, lack of evapotranspiration and high RH come Oct can induce hypoxic/anoxic soil conditions, which could lead to a bunch of different biotic (soilborne pathogens) and abiotic (no O2 for root respiration, lack of O2 induces microbes to use other compounds as electron acceptors, can result in build up of toxic compounds) stresses.
In terms of O2 availability, you cannot deny that smartpots and airpots allow for more air diffusion to the root zone, thus increasing the rates of root and aerobic microbial respiration. While this may be seen as a negative phenomena from certain POV (e.g. increased rate of soil organic carbon loss), it is more often seen as a benefit due to increased growth rates.
I will acknowledge that planting in amended native soil or mounds may be the best management option for certain conditions. It is definitely the more 'sustainable' strategy. The largest plants I have ever personally witnessed were grown in 1000gal fabric pots... 10+ p ave all day (even for cultivars that people say max out at 2 to 3 p).
Lastly, you really cannot compare plants grown in 800 gal mounds vs 300 gal smartpots (apples vs. cherries). I submit a friendly challenge that you prove your claims that mounds are the business by doing a side by side with a fabric container of the same volume. BTW what strain did you rock in the 300 gal that gave you the highest yield?
yea brown outdoor is automatically a very young age on the market...thats why i love cherry pie she turns purple and green in todays flooded ass market bag appeal is key.
love to try the mound idea....i was just skeptical about digging holes this year because my property has lots of red clay under the topsoil, im worried that the excess iron might affect taste? some of the best outdoors ive seen and smoked were grown in flushed smartpots, love that super smooth organic taste..
love to try the mound idea....i was just skeptical about digging holes this year because my property has lots of red clay under the topsoil, im worried that the excess iron might affect taste? some of the best outdoors ive seen and smoked were grown in flushed smartpots, love that super smooth organic taste..
plastochron
Member
I wonder the same thing about iron oxide causing a harsh taste, but I would be more worried about iron toxicity occurring if your soil doesn't drain properly and anoxia is induced because the iron oxide would be reduced to ferric iron, which is much more soluble and readily taken up by roots. Though all of these concerns may be unnecessary... I'm not sure if you are familiar with Butte's thread from last season, but he grew in mounds on top of what appears to be red clay.
greenmember
New member
Not sure how well it does outdoors (not yet) but Cannatonic from Resin Seeds has a higher CBD content. Here's an excerpt from their add "One of the added advantages of our specially picked Cannatonic cannabis seeds is that it flowers in around 70 days. For information purposes, its THC content is between 1:1 ratio of CBD/THC. About 6.2/6.9 and the yield it produces is 500g m2. Harvest outdoors is October and its yield is 250-400 per plant." I'm a noob, so take it for what it's worth. I don't know if I'm going to be able to use this outside as we often get snow by then. I'm really hoping my Arjan's Haze #1, and Himalayan Gold do well. This will be my first outdoor grow btw. I have one indoor grow under my belt, and I think I'm in love
plastochron
Member
Good on ya, green. Welcome to icmag (though i'm rather new myself). Cannatonic can definitely produce unbelievable concentrations of CBDA. I have seen some that had 22% CBDA. I do not think that all cannatonic grown from seed will have such an abnormally high concentration of CBDA, and in fact I bet that many progeny will not have elevated concentrations of CBDA. I wonder if the ratio will be anything like it is for omrita:
http://projectcbd.org/images/Omrita-Cal-Bot-test.fullsiz.jpg
http://projectcbd.org/images/Omrita-Cal-Bot-test.fullsiz.jpg
I've done a lot of both and feel it's kind of a toss up so I lean to siding with Veg N on this issue, being as it is more sustainable - not to mention prettier
Fabric containers have their downsides too, the highly elevated oxygen levels around the edges can/does eventually limit growth out there in my experience. More of an issue, is the comparative heat of a container throughout the summer in comparison with inground plantings. Some of these issues can be dealt with/limited with mulch and burlap wraps etc but where do we stop?
Soil heterogeneity is an issue for fieldcrop breeders etc as it leaves room for evaluation errors during selections, but I question how much consideration we should be reserving for it in this instance.
With X amount of imported soil in a fabric container vs X amount in a mound on top of gypsum worked native soil (as Veg N is doing), I believe I'd wager fairly heavily on the mound. -T
Fabric containers have their downsides too, the highly elevated oxygen levels around the edges can/does eventually limit growth out there in my experience. More of an issue, is the comparative heat of a container throughout the summer in comparison with inground plantings. Some of these issues can be dealt with/limited with mulch and burlap wraps etc but where do we stop?
Soil heterogeneity is an issue for fieldcrop breeders etc as it leaves room for evaluation errors during selections, but I question how much consideration we should be reserving for it in this instance.
With X amount of imported soil in a fabric container vs X amount in a mound on top of gypsum worked native soil (as Veg N is doing), I believe I'd wager fairly heavily on the mound. -T
My problem with Old Betsy was its comparatively brittle framework. Got caught with my pants down during a September rain last year and branches were snapping like crazy.
Still waiting for something to knock Maad's Dream out as an excellent choice, but not holding my breath. Also running the old Trainwreck clone again this year, a few others. -T
Still waiting for something to knock Maad's Dream out as an excellent choice, but not holding my breath. Also running the old Trainwreck clone again this year, a few others. -T
