sterile hydroponics thread

[avant gardener]

The only problem with going the sterile route is finding a nutrient base that works "with" you instead of against you.

What most fail to realize is that most all formula's on the market use up to 25% ammoniacal nitrogen for the total nitrogen content. Same with calcium as well, a certain percentage will be obtained from ammonia based sources.

When you run a sterile tank, you do not have the needed bacteria to convert the ammonia into nitrates that the plants can use.

The best method or approach is to use inoculates and "some" organic inputs and then run your sterilizer about 24 to 48 hours before a tank change to kill off the bacteria. Change your tank and reset.....

If you REALLY want to run a "true" sterile program with out being counter productive, then you need to be using only ammonia free nutrient and additives.

I can also tell you that once you go to a sterile ammonia free program in water culture ....you will never look back or want to use any ammonia containing products again! Clean and problem free does not even begin to describe the experience accurately. SUPER clean final product.

excellent point. in the absence of microbes to break it down, ammonia/urea based nitrogen is largely useless to the plant. this definitely makes ammoniacal nitrogen superfluous in a sterile environment. by contrast, nitrate nitrogen can be absorbed by the plant without helpers. as long as you don't experience ammonia toxicity and nitrate deficiency at the same time though, i still can't see how this is counterproductive.

in any case, it begs a question. what kind of nutes are you using that contain 0% ammoniacal nitrogen? i haven't found any ready mix that does.

i use a feeding schedule as a general guideline and listen to the plant to tell me how they want things dialed. haven't had an issue with ammonia yet doing it this way.

 

[TheBioMaster]

Ag- I was hoping you were going to ask me that VERY question avant gardner....They are not exactly falling off the shelves at hydro stores huh??? It took me over 3 years of testing and searching until I finally found the ammonia free formulas and people that REALLY know about hydroponics instead of just "claiming" to like all these others.

Even the guys at CCH02 the makers of the UC (UnderCurrent) who are suppose to be specialist in water culture......seem to be totally ignorant when talking about water culture plant nutrients. They just came out with a new formula specifically for the UC system and water culture.....it has more ammonia than most formulas.........SAD!!! Even those guys do not get it yet.......the system rocks and will blow your mind with a ammonia free formula but alas.....they just will not listen to reason and common sense/knowledge.

What I would also like to point at here is this....Ya know how Advanced Nutrients claims to do all this research and study and be MJ specific??? Then why is it I ask you does there hydroponic formula's contain UREA still???? Not only do they carry the most ammonia content....but they STILL use UREA (mammal piss) for a nitrogen source.....huh??? Guess all the PHD's they have on staff missed that one......the real reason they use these materials in a formula is simply because of cost and greed. It is ironic that the company boasting all this knowledge about medical MJ seems to be the WORST offenders and know LESS about medical MJ than most???

Anyhow below is TRUE hydroponic formulas and the ONLY ones I know about. This should give you an idea of how many nutrient brands out there are .......how do you say it......ignorant???

1. Shiva by Crop Nutrients. It is a 2 part complete formula with NO ammonia at all! It is BY FAR the most cleanest, and concentrated and pH stable formula I have ever come across in over 28 years. it uses only pharmaceutic grade materials and NO AMMONIA!

No additives are required with this 2 part complete formula.

Both parts A&B look clear as water. You also use the same two bottles for both veg and bloom. We are able to run PPM levels as low as 400PPM (.5 x500)!!! That is how clean, bioavailable and on target they are. You really do have to experience it to understand.

2. Veg+Bloom Custom DWC formula. This is a one part complete powder that is blowing doors off!!! Great stuff and they have a option for a custom formula that Chris will mix up for you that is ammonia free!! It cost 10 bucks more and there is a minimum of a 10lb order I think....he may have changed this.

No additives are required with this COMPLETE formula.

I would also add that this custom DWC special formula from Hydroponic-Research also carries a new fulvic isolate that is the lowest in molecular weight and the most bioavailable fulvic on the market today! Amazing stuff from Chris and this formula is also custom made for medical MJ...but for REAL!! Not just a BS marketing ploy like you get from Advanced Nutrients with there BS gimmick products......sickening!!

 

[TheBioMaster]

Forgot to mention I will find and pm you the link for the article on synthetic amino's. AG

I also forgot to add that Dyna-Gro which most do not know was the first hydroponic nutrient available on the market over 30 years ago.....these guys are for sure experts and one of the better companies out there that will shoot straight with you....I think there Foliage Pro formula is ammonia free but I have not yet tested that formula yet or verified the data......I am pretty sure it has no amoniacal nitrogen in it but unsure about the calcium sources.....

These guys at Dyna-Gro are really good folks and they know lots about hydroponic nutrients...

 

[TheBioMaster]

I should also add that you can have success with ammonia sources and water culture as many do every day. The point is this......is this the most productive and best way to go in water culture?? According to the testing that we have done over a 8 year period shows that in water culture, you get better results running a sterile program with no ammonia. It is also so much easier to maintain target values. Everything is easier basically.....less cleaning, and the final product is what really makes it worth while......super clean and awesome taste comes through as "genetic expressions" are amplified.

I mainly posted this information so people trying to run a "sterile" program will have a better understanding of what it really means to run "sterile". It also helps when your working "with" something as opposed to working against something......

Moral of the story is this...when you use ammonia based products, do not kill off the microbes you need to process that ammonia into something that is not a toxic poison to the plant.

When you kill off microbes running a sterile program but then keep adding back toxic poisons like ammonia that NEED microbes for conversion to nitrates, you are fighting against something......another thing that happens is that because there are not enough microbes to convert the toxic ammonia, that ammonia stays as ammonia which is a toxic poison to the plant.....not good.

Once the balance tips to the ammonia side of things, guess what happens next??

Check water culture grows out that are having issues and problems and you can actually "see" what "stage" the level of toxicity has progressed to by the way the plants look.....everything else under the sun gets blamed for the problem.........

 

[sunset limited]

this thread hasn't been dusted off in a minute.

just wanted to chime in that i use UV and quaternary ammonia and that i'm extremely pleased with the results.

 

[Iffy]

Forbidden

Forbidden

Use our online calculator to establish chlorine ppm in solution with any given product. http://www.manicbotanix.com/calculators ... n-calc.php


I tried this link but was forbidden entry.
Any suggestions?

 

[sunset limited]

try this one.

http://www.manicbotanix.com/calculators.html

cool stuff. thanks.

 

[doneit]

TTT

 

[MPL]

H202 is a gift from above. Expensive as shit to run it constantly though. I find it keeps freshly cut clones super healthy, and I still use it extensively in my cloning process.

I'm going to try an inline UV sterilizer from the marine aquarium world for my reservoirs. They work great in that application.

 

[doneit]

I have a question if i may?

I picked up some physan, is it ok to mix it in with me feed and feed the plants?
If so, how much should i use in a 1 gallon mixture?
I feed dtw every other day. will this harm my plants?
thanks in advance

 

[sunset limited]

i have run 1ml/10 gal of physan. at first i'd just add it a day before nute changes, but that wasn't getting the job done so i started running it 24/7. i promise you the plants don't mind it a bit at that level. take care that it's all the way diffused throughout the entire system before you bubble it though. otherwise it'll look like you put dish soap in a washing machine.

here's a question for you though. why do you need to run sterile in a DTW system? i run dead rez for 2 reasons only. first, i do DWC. when the roots are constantly submerged in water they are very prone to rot. secondly, i do recirc as opposed to DTW. it's analogous to the plants all drinking out of the same cup. if one gets sick, they're all gonna catch it. for my dtw coco and soil container gardens, i definitely cultivate a microherd. can't see any benefit in running sterile there. were you actually having issues before?

either way, physan (or other quaternary ammonia) is something i'd recommend to every serious grower. it actually kills all the creepy crawlies that you only think bleach does. hand dip, tool dip, foot bath, general cleaning, dunk for cuttings, etc... good shit to have on hand. just don't breathe it in concentrated form or put it in the water supply carelessly.

 

[doneit]

Sunset,Thank you very much for getting back to me.
I have 2 mother plants that i received from a local source that i have in a quarantined area.
they came from a place that has been fighting a know root disease, they were going to throw them out, so i elected to try and save them. they are original chem 4 and chem d, i always wanted these strains so i am willing to do what it takes.
any advice you can give me would be fantastic.
the plants are in 3 gallon containers of rockwool chunks, my friend advised me to use maxi grow until they are disease free because they are chemical nutes.

thanks agin

One last thing, what do you mean diffused? bubbled? should i mix some in a 5 gallon bucket with an air stone?

 

[sunset limited]

ok. by example, let's say you're running a 200 gallon undercurrent bucket system. if you were to drop that 20ml of physan in the brain bucket/rez/wherever you normally drop your nutes, and then fire up the air pumps before the physan has had a chance to be distributed evenly across the whole system, it's going to foam over and make a huge mess in a matter of seconds. put a couple mils in a bucket and bubble it to find out what i mean

as for the mothers. if it were me, i'd try to take some cuttings before playing with chemicals to fix things that a newly rooted clone would remedy. assuming you can't make that happen though, here's what i'd do if it was some rare ass genetics that i couldn't source any other way (and depending on where in the world you are, that isn't the case with the chem in 2013).

first of all, do you know what the root disease is? first, make sure it's not aphids. if it is, treat with imid. i recommend merit 75, but you can get the bayer tree and shrub at home depot. long as we're taking about insects, do you have gnats buzzing around? if so, they'll spread that nastiness to everything in your room. gnatrol at 1/2 Tbsp per gallon is a deadly effective biocontrol that's safe for people and the environment. you can't use it with the physan though, so pick one at a time.

if it's purely fungal though (probably pythium), i'd recommend trying the biological route first. actinovate at 1 tsp/gal is great at controlling fungal root diseases. it's only fair to middling at clearing them up once they've taken root (pardon the pun). again, can't be used woth physan as it's biological and physan will kill it.

if you want to make sure you get rid of the rot though, consider ridomil gold sl @ 1ml per 10 gallons the shit ain't cheap, but it will get rid of pythium in a hurry.

if you're not accustomed to handling dangerous chemicals, either A. educate yourself in advance and take all the necessary precautions or B. just don't do it.

i'd wish you luck, but it's just science. hope that helps.

 

[highonmt]

I love the thread. In my opinion sterile is the ONLY practical way to manage a large grow op. An algea problem in a 50-100 plant system is a BIG deal.... in a small room it is much more manageable. I love Dutch Master Zone I use it at about .5- 1ml per gallon once every 10 days or so. If I see a problem I can up it to 2ml/gallon. The other thing I think is crucial is a water fall of some sort to break up any biofilm in the making and fully oxygenate the solution. Just a line with a T half runs to plants the other half sprays vigourously down into the water breaking surface tension.
HM

 

[MPL]

Other than the Dutch Master Zone, which I've never used, this is totally on point.

QFT!

I have a waterfall system set up as well. I took a lot of ideas from keeping marine aquariums and applied them to hydroponics, and that's one of them.

People running DWC or some other method that requires aeration should look into using modified protein skimmers for that purpose. It should never clog, is generally self-cleaning, super reliable and will completely saturate your water with O2. Oh and it'll made it a lot harder for algae and whatnot to take hold in your system. The waterfall idea is similar. Surface film will block gas exchange in your res and that's no good. That quickly leads to an anaerobic environment in your res...

I love the thread. In my opinion sterile is the ONLY practical way to manage a large grow op. An algea problem in a 50-100 plant system is a BIG deal.... in a small room it is much more manageable. I love Dutch Master Zone I use it at about .5- 1ml per gallon once every 10 days or so. If I see a problem I can up it to 2ml/gallon. The other thing I think is crucial is a water fall of some sort to break up any biofilm in the making and fully oxygenate the solution. Just a line with a T half runs to plants the other half sprays vigourously down into the water breaking surface tension.
HM

 

[sunset limited]

I love the thread. In my opinion sterile is the ONLY practical way to manage a large grow op. An algea problem in a 50-100 plant system is a BIG deal.... in a small room it is much more manageable. I love Dutch Master Zone I use it at about .5- 1ml per gallon once every 10 days or so. If I see a problem I can up it to 2ml/gallon. The other thing I think is crucial is a water fall of some sort to break up any biofilm in the making and fully oxygenate the solution. Just a line with a T half runs to plants the other half sprays vigourously down into the water breaking surface tension.
HM

NOBODY grows 100 plants. i met a guy who had 98 once, but that was a long time ago.

Other than the Dutch Master Zone, which I've never used, this is totally on point.

QFT!

I have a waterfall system set up as well. I took a lot of ideas from keeping marine aquariums and applied them to hydroponics, and that's one of them.

People running DWC or some other method that requires aeration should look into using modified protein skimmers for that purpose. It should never clog, is generally self-cleaning, super reliable and will completely saturate your water with O2. Oh and it'll made it a lot harder for algae and whatnot to take hold in your system. The waterfall idea is similar. Surface film will block gas exchange in your res and that's no good. That quickly leads to an anaerobic environment in your res...

the pump on my chiller does the trick here.

 

[doneit]

ok. by example, let's say you're running a 200 gallon undercurrent bucket system. if you were to drop that 20ml of physan in the brain bucket/rez/wherever you normally drop your nutes, and then fire up the air pumps before the physan has had a chance to be distributed evenly across the whole system, it's going to foam over and make a huge mess in a matter of seconds. put a couple mils in a bucket and bubble it to find out what i mean

as for the mothers. if it were me, i'd try to take some cuttings before playing with chemicals to fix things that a newly rooted clone would remedy. assuming you can't make that happen though, here's what i'd do if it was some rare ass genetics that i couldn't source any other way (and depending on where in the world you are, that isn't the case with the chem in 2013).

first of all, do you know what the root disease is? first, make sure it's not aphids. if it is, treat with imid. i recommend merit 75, but you can get the bayer tree and shrub at home depot. long as we're taking about insects, do you have gnats buzzing around? if so, they'll spread that nastiness to everything in your room. gnatrol at 1/2 Tbsp per gallon is a deadly effective biocontrol that's safe for people and the environment. you can't use it with the physan though, so pick one at a time.

if it's purely fungal though (probably pythium), i'd recommend trying the biological route first. actinovate at 1 tsp/gal is great at controlling fungal root diseases. it's only fair to middling at clearing them up once they've taken root (pardon the pun). again, can't be used woth physan as it's biological and physan will kill it.

if you want to make sure you get rid of the rot though, consider ridomil gold sl @ 1ml per 10 gallons the shit ain't cheap, but it will get rid of pythium in a hurry.

if you're not accustomed to handling dangerous chemicals, either A. educate yourself in advance and take all the necessary precautions or B. just don't do it.

i'd wish you luck, but it's just science. hope that helps.

Thank you very much!
This disease aforementioned is quite seriuos, i do not know what it is , i do know that my friends have battled it for 2yrs, as far as i know they have tried just about everything to rid it, mykos, actinovate, caps bennies etc... when that did not work they tried alliet, eagle 20, and a bunch more.
the grow is quite large is why they tried to fight for so long, the grow has been reset twice in the last year, replacing all genes with new etc. A recent water analysis from penn state university has proven that it originated in the local water.
so after the report came back, once again everything was tossed out and thoroughly sanitized.

Now in my case, i am totally isolated from them and prefer to do this on my own, mostly for security reasons, but also to see if i can rid this myself.
the roots are not terrible yet, the disease is present for sure though, the roots are starting to turn tan, and the tips are dying, brown tip.
I have been reading the threads here as recommended by my friend. this is why i decided to try the physan 20. i picked up some pool shock at walmart also as a second line of defense.

I do know that bleach does not kill this disease, just the plants! haha

I would take cuts , but i really want to see if i can defeat this disease, it would surely be nice to have the remedy if it does come back.

so, if i mix up 5 gallons of nutrient mix, how much physan should i add to hand feed these for a few days. a strong enough solution to kill the disease, but not the plants.

Thank you very much for your time.

 

[doneit]

Other than the Dutch Master Zone, which I've never used, this is totally on point.

QFT!

I have a waterfall system set up as well. I took a lot of ideas from keeping marine aquariums and applied them to hydroponics, and that's one of them.

People running DWC or some other method that requires aeration should look into using modified protein skimmers for that purpose. It should never clog, is generally self-cleaning, super reliable and will completely saturate your water with O2. Oh and it'll made it a lot harder for algae and whatnot to take hold in your system. The waterfall idea is similar. Surface film will block gas exchange in your res and that's no good. That quickly leads to an anaerobic environment in your res...

MPL, thank you for your suggestion of zone, i know that it was tried before, there was some success with it, however, by the second week of flower the disease takes over and kills off the roots, then the plants.

 

[MPL]

I'm not suggesting Zone. I've never tried it.

MPL, thank you for your suggestion of zone, i know that it was tried before, there was some success with it, however, by the second week of flower the disease takes over and kills off the roots, then the plants.

 

[MPL]

Are you completely sure of that?

NOBODY grows 100 plants. i met a guy who had 98 once, but that was a long time ago.