Spider mites and raw neem oil: let's roll.

[mad librettist]

There is another saying that goes "all pesticides lead to resistance when overused".

The good news is that when you re-introduce non resistant strains, and remove the pesticide, resistance fades away. Diversity equals control, or at least as much control as you got with the kill 'em all approach. There is prevention - the rational steps one takes to prevent something from happening based on careful consideration of the risks and benefits, and then there is the kind of reckless prevention that places the short term benefit at the top of the list and the rest off the list altogether. And shades in between.

I'm sad to say, spinosad is the kill 'em all approach, just like Bt, and to a much lesser extent, neem.

On the other hand, you can't bring a whole ecosystem inside can you? So you need to draw a line for yourself. What are you willing to do?

I can tell you that inside, the line for me is not in the same place as outside. In both cases, I am thinking in terms of IPM. The variables change, that's all.

 

[hoosierdaddy]

Why all the platitudes? This is bug killing here.
And spinosad is a very benign, OMRI listed product. Mixed as a feed amendment, the plant will only effect a pest that is going for a meal of the leaves. Also a completely organic treatment.
So, I have to disagree with your analysis.

 

[Clackamas Coot]

hoosierdaddy

Are you using the spinosad product from Monterey Garden by any chance?

Just curious.

CC

 

[mad librettist]

those aren't platitudes, they are the same warnings that get ignored time and again by the greedy and reckless.


Bt - omri listed. gardeners didn't even have to overuse it, thanks to monsanto putting the gene in corn.

Pyrethrin - OMRI listed. all natural. can easily devastate an ecosystem.

rotenone - is it still listed. this is a potent traditional fish poison.


there is no such thing as a harmless pesticide. indiscriminate use is always ill-advised, and a sensible gardner always applies them with care, caution, and parsimony.

i'm sorry you don't like my style.

 

[hoosierdaddy]

Yeah, CC...Monterey

Mad, let me ask you this...
If I amend my feed water with a little bit of spinosad (do study up on the stuff), and it prevents mites or thrips from wanting to invade the plant...causing me to have to kill them in some fashion, am I not being more responsible than the person who does nothing but try to create an organic environmen (whatever the beholders minds says that is) and hope for the best? I kinda doubt the thrips or borg gives a rats toss about how organic your grow is. They want to eat your plants. And if they do, they will invite others to the party...and then the sex begins. And sheesh next thing you know you have a whole population to kill. Unless of course your organic world does not include the purposely causing the demise of other creatures and you let them have their way. (which is fine by me if you do that)
But pot growers on average like to create the best environment possible for the production of flowers. That is the goal. Sometimes this means we have to get rough with pests, and if at all possible I find it much better to employ a preventative measure rather than trying to catch up with chaos as an afterthought.

I think that spinosad in a feed to prevent pests from wanting to eat the plant is the way to go. But that's just me...

 

[Clackamas Coot]

Hoosierdaddy

That's the brand that most readily available in Oregon as well. They do have a concentrated version which may be wholesale only - I'm not sure. If it is available then you can save some serious money on the initial cost as well as the benefit of a longer shelf life.

HTH

CC

 

[hoosierdaddy]

I looked into some of the other spinosad products that were more concentrated, and being used in the commercial hort industry. A big factor was cost. Even though you can save lots of coin, I found that the initial purchase was way up there for the commercial stuff. (like 5 gal min.)
So, I stayed with what I could get easily.
I didn't know Monterey was offering a commercial mixture, but I will look into it. Thanks for the heads up.

 

[mad librettist]

Yeah, CC...Monterey

Mad, let me ask you this...
If I amend my feed water with a little bit of spinosad (do study up on the stuff), and it prevents mites or thrips from wanting to invade the plant...causing me to have to kill them in some fashion, am I not being more responsible than the person who does nothing but try to create an organic environmen (whatever the beholders minds says that is) and hope for the best? I kinda doubt the thrips or borg gives a rats toss about how organic your grow is. They want to eat your plants. And if they do, they will invite others to the party...and then the sex begins. And sheesh next thing you know you have a whole population to kill. Unless of course your organic world does not include the purposely causing the demise of other creatures and you let them have their way. (which is fine by me if you do that)
But pot growers on average like to create the best environment possible for the production of flowers. That is the goal. Sometimes this means we have to get rough with pests, and if at all possible I find it much better to employ a preventative measure rather than trying to catch up with chaos as an afterthought.

I think that spinosad in a feed to prevent pests from wanting to eat the plant is the way to go. But that's just me...

other than questioning my credibility, all I see is a lecture on spinosad. thanks.

but I believe we were talking about whether or not all pesticides should be treated with the same respect (as in IPM), regardless of how we feel about their safety. Maybe you can read up on IPM, and tell me which part you disagree with. I won't lecture you.

 

[hoosierdaddy]

Where do I question your credibility on anything?
Since this thread was started prior to your membership here, I will remind you that the discussion is about neem oil use for control of mites.

 

[mad librettist]

this thread was started by me. that is my old handle, before I was banned. I'm trying to be less of an attack dog now. It's hard though. It can be frustrating to post here you know.

Any questions about whether my mites are back, or what I learned from this little public neem oil experiment, let me know. When the mites come back, I have a better camera so I can document the control better. That will also give me motivation to finish the "how to properly mix neem oil" thread. I owe clack some pics still, and he won't stop pinching my ass until I give it up.

If I amend my feed water with a little bit of spinosad (do study up on the stuff

that quote, right there? you words are intended to make it seem as if I know nothing of spinosad. Maybe you didn't mean it, but the idea is to suggest I am a blowhard who has no idea what he's talking about and tries to fool stoners into believing weird shit, like intgrated pest management. I admit I learned of spinosad only recently, maybe a month or two. But it's fascinating stuff and I may need to use it someday so of course I ate it up. Did you know it was discovered by some biologist on vacation at the beach? Anyway, IPM still applies. It needs to be adhered to like a moral law. Check it out. It's probably not what you think.

Seriously, check out IPM. And spread the word. Keep the MJ pest population healthy and we can live with them more easily.

 

[Clackamas Coot]

Where do I question your credibility on anything?

Since this thread was started prior to your membership here, I will remind you that the discussion is about neem oil use for control of mites.

Sometimes it's best not to ask any/all questions as you're soon to find out.

HTH

CC

 

[Clackamas Coot]

My bad! Beat to the punch!

Damn!

 

[mad librettist]

Hey clack I got mine in first. Does that mean I get to be on top?

seriously, you disappoint me. pick up the pace.

 

[hoosierdaddy]

whatever you say chief

 

[mad librettist]

alright then! i like the sound of that. most people do.


Once you take the easy step of lifting the fingers it takes to look up IPM, remember that spreading the word doesn't just help the other guy, it helps you.

 

[hoosierdaddy]

I appreciate your recent concern for the IPM concept, but we need to look back a bit here.
I think my first post in this thread was as valid then as it is now concerning the original post where you were using a tablespoon and a half of neem oil and a tablespoon and a half of dawn detergent in a quart of water. I don't know what IPM program gave you the wild idea that those levels of neem and detergent were proper to use, but as you soon found out it wasn't the best thing to be doing. FWIW, the use of detergent is only for the surfactant aspect of the soap to relieve surface tension and help the solution to spread better. This is accomplished by using a few drops of detergent per gallon, not a tablespoon and a half per quart. I would have thought a person crazy if they actually asked my opinion before hand, and I would have strongly warned them against such a silly move. You will find nowhere a recipe like that recommended by anyone at all.

And concerning IPM, the first concept of management is prevention. And as I was suggesting, a preventative measure using spinosad is what I am deciding to do, rather than continue a neem oil program. Systemic is the way to go, especially if the product used is not harmful to the plant, or anything else...save for a pest that decides to eat the plant. Beneficial insects won't be harmed by this systemic method either, unless they decide to dine on the plant, and that would mean they have changed clubs and are now pests.

What sort of credibility build was it that led you to use such a recipe for disaster from the start?

 

[D.S. Toker. MD]

Gatewood Gailbraith recently represented me in court.

As primarily and outdoor grower, I hadnt had much experience with spider mites until recently when i went to a buddies house and he had them bad - they were killing his plants. He must have had 10 different remedies he had tried

I went back to my house, got my liquid seven. The directions for sevin call for 1tbsp per gallon, but for mites and other tough bugs i use 2 ounces per gallon. It looks like milk on the plant but 2 days later all of his mites were dead. Still, i drenched them drippingly again with the white milky pesticide but this time with a good dose of rotenone mixed into the sevin. Sometimes i supplement the milky sevin mix with a dash of rotenone product at 6 times the recommended dosage just to throw any resistors off of their game. These products wont hurt the plant at any concentration

Mites die easily - liquid sevin at 20 times the recommended dose applied 3 times within a week. Dead and gone,drowned and coated along with most other things.. Ive used it for 20 years.

I know that some resist using cemicals, but outdoor growers have very little choice. Half measures and natural cures wont deter 2" grasshoppers, tent caterpillars or heavy infestations of cut worms and boreres. They laugh at neem oil

 

[hoosierdaddy]

There are a myriad of products we can use that will kill the mites on contact. Some will also bring the eggs to their demise. I have always been a bit leery using products like Sevin, even though it is sold for garden use. Very powerful stuff, and it is bound to put other insects down.
I specifically worry about bees. They have been on a decline for whatever reason, and I have seen first hand what some pesticides can do to bees when used outdoors.
Indoor it's a different story all together, and the only thing I worry about there is what sort of residual I may encounter when I smoke my flowers.

FWIW...the biggest problem folks have with mites, is not following though on the plan. Once you kill them, it will be about 4 days later and their progeny will be alive and kicking. A spray treatment must be repeated until the total population is decimated or else it is all work for naught.

Gatewood is a good man, and has been on a long mission. I hope to see his life's work mean something before he too passes.

 

[mad librettist]

I appreciate your recent concern for the IPM concept, but we need to look back a bit here.
I think my first post in this thread was as valid then as it is now concerning the original post where you were using a tablespoon and a half of neem oil and a tablespoon and a half of dawn detergent in a quart of water. I don't know what IPM program gave you the wild idea that those levels of neem and detergent were proper to use, but as you soon found out it wasn't the best thing to be doing. FWIW, the use of detergent is only for the surfactant aspect of the soap to relieve surface tension and help the solution to spread better. This is accomplished by using a few drops of detergent per gallon, not a tablespoon and a half per quart. I would have thought a person crazy if they actually asked my opinion before hand, and I would have strongly warned them against such a silly move. You will find nowhere a recipe like that recommended by anyone at all.

And concerning IPM, the first concept of management is prevention. And as I was suggesting, a preventative measure using spinosad is what I am deciding to do, rather than continue a neem oil program. Systemic is the way to go, especially if the product used is not harmful to the plant, or anything else...save for a pest that decides to eat the plant. Beneficial insects won't be harmed by this systemic method either, unless they decide to dine on the plant, and that would mean they have changed clubs and are now pests.

What sort of credibility build was it that led you to use such a recipe for disaster from the start?

yes, the dose was too high. lesson learned. I think I pointed that out, or maybe it was another thread. Anyway, thank you kindly for reminding me.

and for some reason, since it was indoors and MJ, IPM went out the window. I'm not saying I know everything, I'm saying I fucked up and you should learn from it. I am still tempted and will at some point once again slip, because my crop is so damn valuable. but that does not make it right! When I've used neem outside, it was never for such an extended period. If you are applying every 3rd day, it needs to be dilute, and the dyna-grow bottle is still being sold with the 1.5 tsp per quart figure.

seventh generation dishsoap, lavender scent, does not harm plants even at 1.5tsp per quart. nor does dawn ultra. I got some pro-tekt, which is an inferior emulsifier but may have its charms. I don't know, I'm still deciding how I feel about potassium silicate. There's a bit of a debate going on over that with the food production folks who want it listed as organic.

Maintaining good humidity and misting your soil daily or mulching, not giving chemical nutes, maintaining a healthy microbial population, or maintaining a predator population - I call that mite prevention.

applying pesticide, whether spinosad, neem, sevin, a strong jet of water, or any other level of lethal or non-lethal, is TREATMENT.

prevention - treatment. two seperate things. I know you need to posture and put me in my place, but it matters enough to me that you looked up IPM. As you can see, unless you have a good reason to expect mites at a particular time, you are engaged in preëmptive, not preventive action. If you are just afraid of mites, let me know when they come and get some soap and water. I can help you develop a schedule. If that doesn't work, stay calm and we move to neem oil. It is EASY!


has it maybe occurred to you that if spinosad is overused, pests will be selected for spinosad resistance? that's foreseeable. IPM is a hedge against the unforeseeable as well.

 

[hoosierdaddy]

I appreciate your concern that I learn from your mistakes, but I made those mistakes a long time ago. Actually some of them I was able to have enough sense to not make them in the first place.
And I also appreciate you offer to help me, but I think I am fine, thanks much.