Spider mites and raw neem oil: let's roll.

[mad librettist]

ok, how about a neem oil advocacy site?

And what they found is very reassuring. To see any effect the scientists had to use very high concentrations of neem. They used a lot more than you would ever use for pest control.
Only if they constantly hit the flowers with a very concentrated neem oil spray did they see an effect, and only in some small hives (medium sized and larger hives were still unaffected.)
What happens is that the bees carry contaminated pollen back to the hive and feed it to the brood. In the small hives some of the new bees could not emerge from their cells (Schmutterer and Holst, 1987).

My "opinion" that constantly controlling "pests" with any constant use of pesticide, absent any imminent threat to crops, is the entire basis for integrated pest management.

Care to smash that one down? If so, why? And what makes you so sure I have criticized any of your practices? In fact, I've criticized your opinion, and the way you've represented the use of this product as always harmless in all cases. If that's not your opinion, let us know! That's all I want.

 

[Clackamas Coot]

ok, how about a neem oil advocacy site?



My "opinion" that constantly controlling "pests" with any constant use of pesticide, absent any imminent threat to crops, is the entire basis for integrated pest management.

Care to smash that one down? If so, why? And what makes you so sure I have criticized any of your practices? In fact, I've criticized your opinion, and the way you've represented the use of this product as always harmless in all cases. If that's not your opinion, let us know! That's all I want.

Uh huh.

Try the FULL and COMPLETE discussion by the folks at your link - here

Thanks for sharing regardless.

CC

 

[mad librettist]

Yes, like this quote perhaps? (considering the subject matter, does it really make sense to reach this level of emotion? forgive me if I am misreading.)

Weekly use of a neem oil spray at a normal concentration (0.5% - 2%) will not hurt honey bees at all.
You can also rest assured that while neem hurts aphids, whiteflys and the like, it does not harm ladybugs and other predators that eat the aphids, or the tiny wasps that are parasites on many pests.

I suppose that's what I'm obfuscating? looks daming until...

What happens is that the bees carry contaminated pollen back to the hive and feed it to the brood. In the small hives some of the new bees could not emerge from their cells (Schmutterer and Holst, 1987).

when I think of honeybees, I don't think of small hives. Because compared to bumblebees, solitary bees, and every other bee I ACTUALLY want to protect, honey bee hives are massive. Do you see where I am going here? worried that the effects of this powerful product have not yet been fully studied? not quite able to believe when something is too good to be true? I'm the one with the doubts, advocating caution, not you. You prove it's safe. Otherwise, I feel just fine passing on my very healthy doubt to others, and talking up integrated pest management as a set of concepts applying to organic gardening, neem or not.

You think to yourself "what do predators eat in my garden?". The answer is "herbivores and other predators". Does a balanced system featuring both predator and prey, which prefers steady competition over infestation, need neem oil weekly? can neem oil restore the predator/prey balance? can it be restored at all (inside? only at great expense in most cases) does it address the root causes, or just cover up the problem (not a judgement on the person)? Does it serve the same function as Dithane, floramite, sevin, Bt, Bt engineered crops, or hand picking?

I have not at any point derided anyone's use of neem oil, and I use it myself. Hell, I used it at the EXACT same time the OP used it, with the exact same results. Then I found out the OP's pesticide salesman father treats his mites with dishsoap! doh!

I am merely suggesting that it be treated with respect, and used as a fallback measure rather than regularly and indiscriminately as a "sustainable farming" measure. I don't care what the government decides it is saying today. Because I assure you, if neem oil and neem products were to become as common as current mainstream pesticides, its abuse would lead to problems. maybe different, or less, than synthetic poison, but we just don't know.

Consider then, that a properly balanced garden is not prone to infestation (in other words my own gardens are quite unbalanced and I am not there yet). Sure, you can't grow everything everywhere every time, but the idea that you should is way off. Use the neem when you need to, but not when you don't.

here's a bit on integrated pest management. I'm not saying anything new that needs citations, I am merely stating that this also applies to our precious "organic approved" pesticides. Whether it's neem, rotenone, or pyrethrins, or even vegetable oil in suspension.

IPM is not a single pest control method but, rather, a series of pest management evaluations, decisions and controls. In practicing IPM, growers who are aware of the potential for pest infestation follow a four-tiered approach. The four steps include:

Set Action Thresholds

Before taking any pest control action, IPM first sets an action threshold, a point at which pest populations or environmental conditions indicate that pest control action must be taken. Sighting a single pest does not always mean control is needed. The level at which pests will either become an economic threat is critical to guide future pest control decisions.

Monitor and Identify Pests

Not all insects, weeds, and other living organisms require control. Many organisms are innocuous, and some are even beneficial. IPM programs work to monitor for pests and identify them accurately, so that appropriate control decisions can be made in conjunction with action thresholds. This monitoring and identification removes the possibility that pesticides will be used when they are not really needed or that the wrong kind of pesticide will be used.

Prevention

As a first line of pest control, IPM programs work to manage the crop, lawn, or indoor space to prevent pests from becoming a threat. In an agricultural crop, this may mean using cultural methods, such as rotating between different crops, selecting pest-resistant varieties, and planting pest-free rootstock. These control methods can be very effective and cost-efficient and present little to no risk to people or the environment.

Control

Once monitoring, identification, and action thresholds indicate that pest control is required, and preventive methods are no longer effective or available, IPM programs then evaluate the proper control method both for effectiveness and risk. Effective, less risky pest controls are chosen first, including highly targeted chemicals, such as pheromones to disrupt pest mating, or mechanical control, such as trapping or weeding. If further monitoring, identifications and action thresholds indicate that less risky controls are not working, then additional pest control methods would be employed, such as targeted spraying of pesticides. Broadcast spraying of non-specific pesticides is a last resort.

 

[mad librettist]

further reading on a neem extract and bumblebees in case anyone is wondering if I am just inventing things

Although Neem EC is considered to be safe for bees (Melathopoulos et al., 2000), our results show that chronic treatment may affect the pollen forage of bumble bees. In the experiments of 2005 and 2006 chronic dosages of Neem EC were ten times lower than the recommended field rates. Despite this, feeding with a chronic sublethal dose of Neem EC caused some differences in the pollen forage of bumble bees, which in turn may affect the survival rate of colonies, especially in intensely managed agricultural areas where distances to the food sources are larger. ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS. This work was funded by the Estonian Scientific Foundation grants no 7391, 6722 and Target Financing Project SF0170057s09.

let's get on the ball. having different poisons doesn't make use immune to natural law. nothing can be created unless something else is destroyed.

 

[Clackamas Coot]

further reading on a neem extract and bumblebees in case anyone is wondering if I am just inventing things



let's get on the ball. having different poisons doesn't make use immune to natural law. nothing can be created unless something else is destroyed.

Define their initial term - "chronic treatment" as such.

You really don't appreciate science and scientific methods do you?

I'm done discussing this issue with you SPECIFICALLY because all of your talking points are pretty much based on 'Well what I feel' or even worse 'What I think' blah, blah, blah, blah......i.e. nothing to sink one's teeth into.

I'm done with you on this topic - find a new chew toy.

You're welcome.

CC

 

[mad librettist]

a sublethal dose (0.01 ppm azadirachtin in the food) of Neem EC, obtained from India (M/S RYM Exports – The Indian Neem Tree Company), was added to the food. The preparation of Neem EC (1% azadirachtin) was diluted with distilled water.

I posted the link, so that the entire article can be read by anyone who wishes. It's a scientific study, so you'll find everything under "materials and methods". Now I'm still waiting for a scrap of a study showing neem oil use on flowering plants is safe for bumblebees and other native bees. Especially in, let's say, orchards? Then I'd like to see which currently researching biologist is saying whiteflies, aphids, thrips, and squash bugs are not important to the ecosystem or predator populations.

I think if you are done with the topic, you are the one finding a new chew toy, no? or in this case, a tug rope, perhaps? If you are calling me a dog, then you are looking like a silly owner, because I don't walk away from my dogs when I am in charge, I stand my ground and they slink off.

I am the one who bumped this one. So why would I find a new one? I still find it interesting. and which topic are you referring to? spider mites? neem oil? IPM? lots you are walking away from in a huff.

come back any time, and put my mind at ease. with the scientific method. you were right and I was wrong about this product before, so I do have some hope.

 

[big_daddy]

B_D

Down-To-Earth packs for one of the importers of neem seed meal and then they re-badge it under their label.

One of the grow stores near Portland in Milwaukie, Oregon carries the Down-To-Earth packages - Indoor Garden Depot

Tell Rome that 'Microbe Guy' sent you there and ask for the 'bro pricing' - LOL

A 6-lb. box should run somewhere around $11.00 and will last you about a year or so.

HTH

CC

Thanks CC,

I used to shop at IGD in Vancouver. Since you turned me on to Concentrates, I scarcely visit "Hydro/Grow Stores" anymore. I find this to be one of the fringe benefits to organic gardening.

I will call them tomorrow. IGD is a more grow oriented place rather than a stoner oriented place IMO. The owner is a helpful guy with a passion for growing, rather than pushing gear to stoners.

Thanks for your help,

B_D

 

[Clackamas Coot]

Thanks CC,

I used to shop at IGD in Vancouver. Since you turned me on to Concentrates, I scarcely visit "Hydro/Grow Stores" anymore. I find this to be one of the fringe benefits to organic gardening.

I will call them tomorrow. IGD is a more grow oriented place rather than a stoner oriented place IMO. The owner is a helpful guy with a passion for growing, rather than pushing gear to stoners.

Thanks for your help,

B_D

B_D

The folks at IGD are the ONLY 'grow store' that I'll deal with. The manager at the Milwaukie store (Rome) is a very nice gentleman and provides me and my associates with KILLER prices on bulbs (Hortilux specifically) and respects us that we're 'hard-core organic' growers and have little use for 99% of the products that they offer.

Having said that, it's also true that Rome and his boss are very good folks. I've helped them out on designing a compost brew system for one of their stores.

When I walk into the Milwaukie the manager, i.e. Rome, usually rolls his eyes not knowing what level of badgering and harassment that I and my associates are going to throw at them - LOL

In fact one day when I happened to drop by the Milwaukie store there was a factory rep from Fox Farms doing a sales call and I let him know how the boar runs through the buckwheat as the expression goes. LOL

Peace

CC

 

[vonforne]

Great information everyone!

V

 

[mad librettist]

I am continuing the challenge of finding non-partisan or if partisan, neem-biased sources to show the product is not a panacea, but just another, albeit, much much safer pesticide. I have to point out that the only documents I find using the word "harmless" are commercial or government (India) interests, and gardeners very enthused about having such a powerful yield ensuring weapon. Actual scientific papers and extracts show a different picture. One that is not too good to be true. Especially if you work outside or if you use biological controls, take note. Nothing can be created without something of equal value being destroyed. They say that on a cartoon I watch when I'm on the road. It's true.

link. I don't have the entire article, but I'll take an abstract from real scientists over salesman's promises.

Abstract:
We tested the effects of a neem insecticide, containing azadirachtin (AZA) as the active ingredient, on fecundity, adult and egg mortality, and preference for neem-treated or untreated foliage on 2 predacious mite species, Phytoseiulus persimilis Athias-Henriot, and Ambyseius cucumeris (Oudemans). We also tested the effects of neem on egg, larval, and adult survival, ,and on ovipositional preference for neem treated or untreated foliage, on the aphid predator Aphidoletes aphidimyza (Rondani). We found no significant differences in egg or adult mortality between treated and untreated mites for either species. For A. cucumeris, untreated females that contacted leaf disks and prey treated with 60 ppm AZA laid fewer egg after 48 h than females on untreated disks. In leaf-disk choice tests, significantly more P persimilis were found on untreated disks than those treated with 60 ppm after 24 h, and significantly more A.cucumeris were found on untreated disks than those treated with 60 ppm after 48 h. However, the number of eggs laid on treated versus untreated disks in these choice tests were not significantly different. For A. aphidimyza we found no significant differences in the percentage eclosion between neem-treated and untreated eggs. However, larval mortality ranged from 30 to 100% for 1st instars treated with neem, and adult emergence of treated larvae was significantly lower for 1st- and 3rd-instar A. aphidimyza compared with untreated controls. First and 3rd instars that acquired neem from contact with treated foliage or ingestion of treated aphids had greater mortality than larvae that were sprayed directly with neem solutions. No significant differences in the sex ratio of adults of the surviving neem treated and control larvae occurred. Adult A. aphidimyza exposed to 60 ppm AZA residues for 48 h in residual contact tests had significantly greater mortality (13%) compared with controls (5%). No significant differences in the number of eggs laid on treated and untreated mustard cabbage plants were apparent. We compared our results with previously published data on the effect of neem on beneficial arthropods.

 

[mad librettist]

I got rep over this saying "to each his own, you should know that". I can't see the sender's ID, so my only way to answer is by posting here.

Excuse me? does anyone on this thread NOT use neem oil? I use it! I am just doubting its harmlessness. This is not an attack on anyone. To you your certainty, to me my doubt. You express yours twice or ten times, I express mine twice or ten times if i wish. To each his own, fine. Mine is doubt.

My goal here is to plant a seed of doubt, so every lurker who sees this does research and thinks carefully before using lethal products. That includes soap, neem, DE, whatever. This can not possibly be reasonably called a provocation.

It is a statement of doubt, no more, and an admission of having been too quick to use pesticides in the past. It's been said that neem is harmless. I can find no science to back that up, only science that creates doubt in my mind and reinforces my belief in IPM. When I hear someone say neem is harmless, I intend to undercut that notion. To each his own.

 

[jaykush]

i dont use neem, i see no need for it in my garden. but thats not to say others cant benefit from it.

 

[mad librettist]

your garden sounds like an ideal I am striving for.

I am proud of that.

 

[hoosierdaddy]

Have you maybe ingested a bit much neem? You say you like the smell of it? hmmmm....

Anywho...just what is your point with all this, in a nutshell?
I know for a fact that my use of neem, and I use it, is completely safe for the entire bee population.

 

[mad librettist]

Have you maybe ingested a bit much neem? You say you like the smell of it? hmmmm....

what are you implying exactly? that disagreeing is some kind of psychosis? or just joining the band wagon? If you want to insult me, hit my profile page, so it isn't forced on others. I seriously don't mind. I may even joust with for fun. but not here, ok?

well actually, my point was a question about the practice of adding neem seed meal to soil as a preventive. I was challenged and harangued for suggesting it might not be so smart. that led to Integrated Pest Management, and more generally the implied "less is more" virtue. My implied point is that we do not know everything about neem oil. The "safe for bees" claim is a prime example IMO of neem oil salesmanship taking the wheel and science left in the parking lot.

Somewhere within all the bickering that went on, two people were trying to discuss a serious point. I see now that being asked for sources was a good thing, but also I am still stinging from the way it was asked. Sometimes when you respect someone it hurts to have them slap you. I wish my skin thicker, repeatedly, but to no avail.

More specifically, I was challenged on my facts, and provided, and am providing all the evidence I dredge up, until I satisfy the challenge or exhaust my sources, which is valid. My counter-challenge has gone unanswered.

Like you, most of my neem use is indoors, but since I did exactly the same as the OP, then found out his dad uses just soap for the same problem, I felt it appropriate to reflect on my failure to first try the least lethal control. That's the IPM philosophy, which applies to organic gardening. It's a real, serious, and pertinent thing to discuss.

good enough?

 

[hoosierdaddy]

Ah, so do we just accept that dish soap is a much safer option than neem?
And why would we do this..because "dish soap" sounds so benign? Or perhaps in depth studies have been conducted showing how safe dish soap is as a miticide?
Have you really checked out the ingredients of dish soap? What dish soap?
More organic than neem?

Are we down with "my dad says and does this so..." ?

 

[mad librettist]

good question, maybe you could contribute by looking it up? I'd give you another helpful rating, but I rated the last batch of posts helpful and can't again til tomorrow.

The father I spoke of, btw, was a pesticide salesman most of his working career. The OP was raised to celebrate pesticides. So when I noted he of all people used dish soap, I felt very foolish. I was supposed to be, as you say, "more organic".

 

[BurnOne]

what are you implying exactly? that disagreeing is some kind of psychosis? or just joining the band wagon? If you want to insult me, hit my profile page, so it isn't forced on others. I seriously don't mind. I may even joust with for fun. but not here, ok?

This is a "discussion forum" and as long as everyone complies with the rules all are free to discuss the topic of the thread even if that means disagreeing with others. If your skin is so thin that you can't tolerate people who disagree with you you should not be posting here.
If anyone violates the Terms Of Use they will be dealt with accordingly.
I should point out rule #15 to you mad librettist. You have made over 110 posts in five days.

15. There is a minimum post count of 50 required prior to being able to send/receive private messages or use the chatroom. Those who attempt to circumvent the minimum post count by turbo posting, or making posts with no worthwhile contribution, will have their posts deleted; repeated turbo posting will result in banning. Due to multiple violations and disrespect of forum guideline #15, members circumventing this policy (for example turbo posting...or posting text of little to no content, or duplicate posts) will have their post count reset to zero by admin as a warning. Repeated posting to circumvent policy will result in banning. Due to turbo posting in the Introduction forum all posts within the Introduction Forum will not be included in member post count totals.

I told you that you could stay as long as you obeyed the rules. You are once again teetering on the edge. Final warning.
Burn1

 

[mad librettist]

hoosier, are you going to look that up? the IPM thread would be a great place to put results.

 

[hoosierdaddy]

No, I am not. I have no idea what dishsoap was used, or should be used. The only reason for using dish soap in the first place is for the surfactant properties, and I don't think it has been proven to be much of a miticide. I have no desire to look up anything concerning dish soap. I see no need. Dish soap contains chemicals that I do not want around my plants. Neem is neem is neem.
Why would you suggest I look it up?