speak now or forever hear your peice!

[spurr]

@ thefatman,

That is a good read on humic substances, I have spoken to the author many times, he's a smart guy and his mentor is even better.

Re CalMag Plus: are you suggesting there is S in the product from Botanicare? I ask because IIRC CalMag Plus is made with CaNO3, MgNO3 and Fe-EDTA.

It is a just as easy to make near like product to Cal-mag Plus.

Ah, okay. I thought maybe there was an S source in Cal-Mag Plus, of which I was unaware. I thought you had some inside info.

Most individuals do not keep Magnesium Nitrate on hand or Fe-EDTA. The sulfur will cause no harm nor will it effect the perform of the Cal-mag Plus.

I agree. I thought Cal-Mag Plus may have had an S source that I didn't know about. I was unaware you are describing how you make DIY Cal-Mag Plus.

Yes I recommend chelated iron over FE-EDTA iron for the same reason. It is not normally possesed by most growers or most hobbyists or small commercial growers mixing their nutrients.

Fe-EDTA is chelated iron. EDTA is generally the least ideal chelating agent, better are DPTA and EDDHA (but for Fe using EDTA is good, along with DPTA). Organic chelating agents are good to use, along with synthetic chelating agents, with respect to Fe and some other micro's.

Many of the nutrient formulations are formulated purposilly with salts not normally possesed by most growers as it discourages most people from makes making their own and encourages people to buy it premade.

That is true of brands like A.N. and D.M., but good brands, such as the FloraSeries from General Hydroponics do not fit that mold. The use of chelating agents for elements that are easily made insoluble (either due to pH, temp or bonding with other ions), is good to help keep them soluble.

Making one's own fertilizer mix from dry salts is best I agree. I have been working on something to hope to become a scientific standard for cannabis studies. I agree most growers don't have a wide range of chelated ions, that said, I don't think most growers have salts at all, most use off-the-self bottled ferts.

Using chelated micro-nutrients (metals), as well as other elements, is not needed if one can control pH of soilless solution (if using soilless or soil).

There is no advantage in Inert hydroponics to using Fe-EDTA instead of chelated iron, there is also very little advantage when using it with soil type growing methods. Nor is there any gain in using the mag nitrate over the Calcium nitrate. When there are little to know gain using less commonly possesed salts there is no reason to be buying them.

Fe-EDTA is chelated iron, and using with soil is one of the best use cases, if the soil is outside. Soilless (ex., peat or coco) is the same story; but use with soil is more important due to issues like pH and temp (if outside).

The only reason I mentioned MgNO3 was because I thought you meant the ingredients in botanicare. I agree there is no difference between CaNO3 and MgNO3 for NO3, nor MgNO3 and MgSO4 for Mg.

You have to also consider that the major manufacturers also now try to use formulations that can not be readily formulated by software such as Nutron2000.

Yea I agree. And I see no reason to try and imitate their products. In general, they make shitty products that have very little basis in sound plant science; not to mention they often do not list all the ingredients.

The companies want us to think cannabis is some extraordinary plant unlike any other plant that has ever existed; that is how they hook people to buy their products ... because only they know the secrets.

IMHO Most mj specific nutrient manufacturers are more concerned with the profits made by using uncommon salts then making formulations easy to duplicate by almost anyone. They are not really our friends as much as we are their captive customers who are willing to pay high prices for nutrients for our mj growing as they try to make it appear like rocket science to formulate nutrient mixes..

I agree.

 

[spurr]

Yeah Lawrence knows his stuff when it comes to humics. He's NOT a fan of any alkaline/acid extracted humics/fulvics. Really learned a lot from him. Hopefully his group will get a standardized method for fulvic acid testing accepted by the industry soon and more importantly an agency like CDFA.

Sadly most humus sold in mj specific nutrients are acid/alkaline extracted.

FWIW, as far as I know, all humic acid* (including HumiSolve from Bio-Ag and Lawrence) is alkaline extracted with caustic soda (very high pH) from humic matter (ex., lignite). Then it's neutralized (to varying degrees) to remove the caustic soda, which reduces pH. From there, the HA can be dried with very high heat, or with lower heat (ex., dry-to-dry method used by Bio-Ag); or the HA can be used as a liquid without drying.

* IIRC, humic acid is kind of a misnomer, humic acid liquid in general is basic, not acidic. The reason to call it "humic acid" is due to chemistry issues (attach acid but not acidic in pH).
​

Fulvic acid (FA) is made by extraction from HA with strong acids. However, in the case of (at least) Bio-Ag, fermentation is used to extract the FA from the HA, not strong acids.

The source of HA, the humic matter (ex,. lignite, leonardite, compost, etc), is very important in terms of the HA being highly heterogeneous in structure (a good thing). Using lignite, as defined in simple terms as softer, younger leonardite, is better than using leondardite. AFAIK Bio-Ag alone sources the highest quality humic matter (lignite), which is unique and not found in (many) other places in the world.

A key sign that HA liquid is poor quality is its pH. The pH should be under 8, if it's over 9 that means there is too much caustic soda left. IMO, it's best to use a liquid HA product with pH between ~5.0-7.5.

 

[thefatman]

FWIW, as far as I know, all humic acid* (including HumiSolve from Bio-Ag and Lawrence) is alkaline extracted with caustic soda (very high pH) from humic matter (ex., lignite). Then it's neutralized (to varying degrees) to remove the caustic soda, which reduces pH. From there, the HA can be dried with very high heat, or with lower heat (ex., dry-to-dry method used by Bio-Ag); or the HA can be used as a liquid without drying.

* IIRC, humic acid is kind of a misnomer, humic acid liquid in general is basic, not acidic. The reason to call it "humic acid" is due to chemistry issues (attach acid but not acidic in pH).
​

Fulvic acid (FA) is made by extraction from HA with strong acids. However, in the case of (at least) Bio-Ag, fermentation is used to extract the FA from the HA, not strong acids.

The source of HA, the humic matter (ex,. lignite, leonardite, compost, etc), is very important in terms of the HA being highly heterogeneous in structure (a good thing). Using lignite, as defined in simple terms as softer, younger leonardite, is better than using leondardite. AFAIK Bio-Ag alone sources the highest quality humic matter (lignite), which is unique and not found in (many) other places in the world.

A key sign that HA liquid is poor quality is its pH. The pH should be under 8, if it's over 9 that means there is too much caustic soda left. IMO, it's best to use a liquid HA product with pH between ~5.0-7.5.

I simply with aeroponics choose not to use humic/fulvic acids. I am old hat in that I prefer as near to sterile hydroponics as I can achieve without going overboard so that pretty much precludes additions of organic supplements. Chlorine residuals are my friends. There does not seem to be much chlorine use out side of hydroponics. Even when using recirculation reservoir nutrients in aeroponics I got quickly away from mixing organic and chemical nutrients. If growing in soil mixes or Coco or something of that nature where I was not recirculating nutrients I would now consider using a mixture of organic supplements and chemicals.

 

[CascadeFarmer]

FWIW, as far as I know, all humic acid* (including HumiSolve from Bio-Ag and Lawrence) is alkaline extracted with caustic soda (very high pH) from humic matter (ex., lignite). Then it's neutralized (to varying degrees) to remove the caustic soda, which reduces pH. From there, the HA can be dried with very high heat, or with lower heat (ex., dry-to-dry method used by Bio-Ag); or the HA can be used as a liquid without drying.

Fulvic acid (FA) is made by extraction from HA with strong acids. However, in the case of (at least) Bio-Ag, fermentation is used to extract the FA from the HA, not strong acids.

Only thing I can say is when I sat down with Dr. Faust he looked me in the eye and told me his humic acid product was extracted by electrolysis. Maybe I didn't get the whole story though. He also said he developed a fairly low temp drying process I think which used vacuum to lower the boiling/evaporation point. I bet Chinese suppliers are using conventional high temp spray drying.

If you want to talk to someone else call John Kempf at Advancing Eco-Agriculture. He's in his busy season though. He's the one that really developed the HumaCarb product which is a whole humate product. Lawrence knows this stuff inside and out and works with John but John can give you a different perspective. Cool thing is the organic suspension agents. You can mix in a nutrient solution and will stay suspended up to 5 days. The particle size is basically in the nano range and main reason it's so effective. More appropriate for use in soil though but may have value in soilless situations. It can be used as a foliar at like 4-8 oz per acre but will discolor leaves so not good for table crops. HumaCarb can also be used in either alkaline or acid solutions no problem.

 

[spurr]

IThere does not seem to be much chlorine use out side of hydroponics. Even when using recirculation reservoir nutrients in aeroponics

Yea I agree. And that's too bad, esp. for users of inert media. The reason being, Cl is a useful element to plants, along with other ignored elements like Ni, Se, Si, B, Na (in very low amounts), etc.

I got quickly away from mixing organic and chemical nutrients. If growing in soil mixes or Coco or something of that nature where I was not recirculating nutrients I would now consider using a mixture of organic supplements and chemicals.

FWIW, if you haven't tried using a high quality fulvic acid, you may want to consider doing so. Fulvic acid (and high quality humic acid of low weight (re daltons)) will increase the ion uptake of your plants, by potentating movement into roots and through the plant; as well as they will chelate and complex ions.

Cheers.

 

[CascadeFarmer]

FWIW, if you haven't tried using a high quality fulvic acid, you may want to consider doing so. Fulvic acid (and high quality humic acid of low weight (re daltons)) will increase the ion uptake of your plants, by potentating movement into roots and through the plant; as well as they will chelate and complex ions.

My understanding also is that fulvic acid helps increase membrane permeability and don't know if that's what you're saying regarding what I bolded.

Also understand it's a valuable addition to foliar solutions more so than humic acid for that same reason(s).

 

[spurr]

Only thing I can say is when I sat down with Dr. Faust he looked me in the eye and told me his humic acid product was extracted by electrolysis. Maybe I didn't get the whole story though.

Maybe so, if he told you that. I thought I recalled Lawrence telling me the HA was extracted with caustic soda, though. I have never heard about using electricity to extract HA from humic matter, interesting. I may give Lawrence a call and ask about the process, it's something I would like to learn about.

He also said he developed a fairly low temp drying process I think which used vacuum to lower the boiling/evaporation point. I bet Chinese suppliers are using conventional high temp spray drying.

Yes and yes. The process Dr. Faust uses is called "dry to dry", it is lower temp drying. I'm not sure about lowering the BP of the solvent/solution, that could be used. IIRC Lawrence told me dry to dry also used sprayers of some sort.

The main reason I used to never use dry HA, before I found Bio-Ag (thanks to a member here), was due to the use of very high heat to dry the HA liquid solution.

I for one will only use fulvic acid from Bio-Ag, and I prefer their humic acid (HumiSolve) too (mostly because of the lignite they source and I don't pay for shipping liquid). However, I have a good relationship with OrganicApproach LLC. (i.e., TeraVita) and have used their HA products, mostly "TVH", for a number of years. TVH has a pH of 5.5-6.5 and is very similar in structure to soil humus (a process refined by Dr. Boris Levinsky; a peer of Dr. Faust).

In a perfect world, I prefer to use liquid HA product, because I believe no matter what drying method is used, there occurs some degradation of HA during the drying process. However, liquid HA suffers from degradation over time ...

At this point I am only using HumiSolve, not using TVH or other humic acid products from TeraVita.

If you want to talk to someone else call John Kempf at Advancing Eco-Agriculture. He's in his busy season though. He's the one that really developed the HumaCarb product which is a whole humate product. Lawrence knows this stuff inside and out and works with John but John can give you a different perspective. Cool thing is the organic suspension agents. You can mix in a nutrient solution and will stay suspended up to 5 days. The particle size is basically in the nano range and main reason it's so effective. More appropriate for use in soil though but may have value in soilless situations. It can be used as a foliar at like 4-8 oz per acre but will discolor leaves so not good for table crops. HumaCarb can also be used in either alkaline or acid solutions no problem.

I have read about/heard about John Kempf before, from whom I do not recall. But I heard he was a good and smart guy, I may give him a call, thanks.

IIRC I looked into HumaCarb in the past, it's micronized correct? It's on the micron-sized scale, not on the nano-sized scale, no? FWIW, I prefer humic acid and fulvic acid over application of humate (such as raw, micronized lignite or leonardite) mostly due to much faster time-to-benefit, and a wider range of benefits.

FWIW, humic acid of (almost) any kind can be used in acidic conditions, down to just above pH 3 until precipitants start to form [cite].

P.S. Did you hear that Dr. Faust is moving to somewhere in South/Central America, full time, to help local peoples improve their organic farming practices? IIRC, he has been doing this for some time already, flying to South/Central America to help the farmers. But soon, or already, he is moving there full time, and Lawrence is taking over the helm (and business?) at Bio-Ag.

 

[Me2]

Re CalMag Plus: are you suggesting there is S in the product from Botanicare? I ask because IIRC CalMag Plus is made with CaNO3, MgNO3 and Fe-EDTA.

Hi Spurr.
The reason botanicare use magnesium nitrate is they can`t put magnesium sulfate in the same bottle as calcium nitrate, its incompatible in concentrated stock solutions.
If you don`t keep the magnesium sulfate and calcium nitrate seperate you`ll find a lot of useless gypsum (calcium sulfate) in your gallon of concentrated homebrew calmag plus.

 

[spurr]

FWIW, if you haven't tried using a high quality fulvic acid, you may want to consider doing so. Fulvic acid (and high quality humic acid of low weight (re daltons)) will increase the ion uptake of your plants, by potentating movement into roots and through the plant; as well as they will chelate and complex ions.

My understanding also is that fulvic acid helps increase membrane permeability and don't know if that's what you're saying regarding what I bolded.

Yes, exactly. Also, HA (of low daltons, IIRC < ~5,000) offers the same function. There is a myth that FA is the only 'active' humic substance, and the only good one for hydro. Humic acid also very 'active', re the lower weight HA vs. higher weight HA (re daltons).

Another neat topic is that of structuring of liquid water into that of "melted water", when humic acid makes up ~0.005-0.009% of solution (ex., fertigation water) by weight. I have found very little additional academic info on this topic in English, much is in Russian. AFAIU, once water has the structure of melted water, it has been found ions can more easily penetrate membranes, because the structure of water inside cells/tissue is similar to that of melted water. From the very good e-bookelt by Dr. Boris Levinsky, "All About Humates" (link):

http://www.teravita.com/Humates/Chapter2.htm

Let’s look at the simple system humate-water. The research carried out at Irkutsk University (D. A. Kalabin, D. F. Kushnaryov) found the dependence in NMR spectral parameters of water, its structure, and concentration of the humates dissolved in it. When the concentration of the humate reaches 0.005-0.009% [i.e., 50-90 ppm] (this particular concentration is recommended for watering plants), 17Î signal increases from 52.7 Hertz to 103 Hertz, which indicates structurization of water.

The course of the curves in Fig. 3 shows that the humates cause water to obtain the structure of melted water (previously frozen), which is known to have a medicinal effect on animate organisms and plants.

Fig. 3. [below] The connection between value of NMR signal and humate concentration

Below are a few good reads, if you haven't seen them, from Dr. Boris Levinsky; via. Erick from TeraVita. Eric hired Dr. Levinsky as a consultant and flew him over from Russia so Dr. Levinsky could help setup their humic acid refinement (extraction) processes (incl. a unique drying method, here):


"Chap 7: Humates and chemical fertilizers"

In: All About Humates
Dr. Boris Levinsky
(e-booklet, translated from Russian to English)
http://www.teravita.com/Humates/Chapter7.htm
​

[FONT=Arial, Arial, Helvetica]

"Myth #4: Only Fulvic Acids are responsible for plant growth stimulation and development, while the Humic Acids are responsible for improving the soil’s structure.[/FONT]"

http://www.teravita.com/Realities/Reality 4.htm
[FONT=Arial, Arial, Helvetica]

Reality #4: Humic and fulvic acids are compounds of one chemical nature and origin. Their fragments do not have principal differences in elementary content. They only differ in their degree of polycondensation, or in other words, in molecule weight. Based on the fact that in natural humus the content level of fulvic acid is statistically insignificant, the stated arguments that fulvic acids are more important for plant stimulation are fully void on scientific grounds. This is also confirmed by the well-known fact that the maximum effect of humic acid application is achieved through foliar treatment of the plants, when the humic acids are easy assimilated by the overhead foliage of the plant. This myth is most often portrayed by commercial entities trying to sell "more value" to their product over the competition. In a majority of cases, we have found that the actual fulvic acid content is greatly overstated by commercial companies, leaving even less credence to this myth! Many various aspects of this ongoing topic will be covered in our Technical Articles section. Click here to view an article on this subject.

[/FONT]​

"The ferment activity of humic and fulvic acid preparations"

By Boris V. Levinsky, PhD [FONT=Arial, Arial, Helvetica]
[/FONT]December 2001
​

http://www.teravita.com/Technical Articles/Ferments of Humic and Fulvic Acids.htm

Also understand it's a valuable addition to foliar solutions more so than humic acid for that same reason(s).

Yes, and also FA has been found to increase chlorophyll levels if leafs, in at least three studies I have read. However, co-application is best, because HA offers an important properly of being a "humicant"; that is, the addition of HA to folair spray will make the leafs stay wetter, longer (water dried less quickly when a humicant is used). The longer the leaf stays wet the higher the rate of absorption.

 

[CascadeFarmer]

Really? Lawrence is taking over BioAg? Kind of doesn't make sense for a lot of reasons. I would think that Ryan Zadow would get that position for starters. Lawrence has a lot of stuff going on, lives half way across the country, has his own gig with John and does consulting work but would be a great person to deal with BioAg's business.

As for Mr. Kempf...hella resource. Mainly works with conventional farmers. The dude is like 21, Amish so never touches a computer, yet an amazing wealth of research information and knowledge gained through application. I think his blood runs green...lol.

I've heard nothing but good things about TeraVita's stuff. I'm somewhat familiar with Dr. Levinsky through research I came across.

 

[spurr]

That is what Lawrence told me, last time we spoke, IIRC. But don't quote me on it

 

[CascadeFarmer]

If so congrats to Lawrence...great guy and very qualified for such work.

[FONT=Arial, Arial, Helvetica]This myth is most often portrayed by commercial entities trying to sell "more value" to their product over the competition. In a majority of cases, we have found that the actual fulvic acid content is greatly overstated by commercial companies, leaving even less credence to this myth![/FONT]

The thing I'd like to know is how can TeraVita say companies overstate FA content when there is currently NO accepted standardized method at this point?..from what I understand. When I talked to A & L Western a year or so back they said 'if you can supply an acceptable method we'll start testing for FA'. A & L is the only lab I've dealt with for humic acid stuff. Seems there's the 'standard' method and the 'CDFA' method which is the more accurate of the two for HA analysis.

HumaCarb is mainly used in conjunction with application of highly soluble N and P to bind them up and make them more microlife friendly. Using up to a 3% concentration of HC in such a nute solution can immediately reduce required N applications by 25%, support a 'healthier' soil and reduce any nute runoff...and one of the main reasons the 'dead zone' in the Gulf of Mexico is expanding.

 

[eyes]

I use general organics, bio thrive - glad i switched. Once i moved away from synthetics,any nutrient imbalances i once had-disappeared. no more ph check,either. even if i use too much i still havent burned any plants as of yet. no more additive this or that as well.just healthy growth without that overly waxy look either.

 

[thefatman]

Hi Spurr.
The reason botanicare use magnesium nitrate is they can`t put magnesium sulfate in the same bottle as calcium nitrate, its incompatible in concentrated stock solutions.
If you don`t keep the magnesium sulfate and calcium nitrate seperate you`ll find a lot of useless gypsum (calcium sulfate) in your gallon of concentrated homebrew calmag plus.

Your right. I over looked that. If using calcium nitrate and magnesium sulfate there would have to be in a part A and Part B concentrate with the chelated iron in Part A with the Calcium nitrate and part B being only the Magnesium sulfate. A hassle but still an option if no magnesium nitrate is at hand.

 

[CascadeFarmer]

IIRC I looked into HumaCarb in the past, it's micronized correct? It's on the micron-sized scale, not on the nano-sized scale, no?

If you test HumaCarb you will find no particle over 1 micron in size. I think it's a highly overlooked product for use in agriculture.

 

[desertsquirrel]

Good info on humus. why isnt it its own thread? twohigh uses floralicious plus though, so it doesn't seem pertain to the thread one bit.

 

[toohighmf]

damn fatman, it's been a long time. good to see you here.