Soil-less Organics with Professor Matt Rize

[Matt Rize]

What does Organic Soil-less Mean? And Why Do We Use Molasses? Part 1

Molasses is commonly used by medical Cannabis gardeners, indoors and outside. The use of molasses is highly controversial on the ganja forums. We all agree that molasses is great for brewing ACTs and AACTs (Active Aerated Compost Teas). Molasses use, beyond food source for microbes in teas, is still a debate.

Old school outdoor organic folks grow in the ground, or in an aged and conditioned True Soil. These folk are wise, but often limited in regards to advanced indoor soil-less cultivation. The old school growers claim "molasses has no affect at all on yield or flavor". They may be correct with regard to their style of growing. We'll get to that soon.

Most of us, the medical Cannabis cultivators, cultivate our medicine indoors for various reasons. We use something that is called an "organic soil-less" media in our pots (containers).
To understand how molasses is used indoors we must understand a few things.

1) What is a "soil-less" media?
2) Why is everyone using soil-less instead of soil?
3) And how does soil-less media affect beneficial soil life and the soil-food-web (organics)?
then...
4) What is molasses?
5) What are root exudates?
6) What does molasses do in a soil-less media?
7) Possible downside to using molasses...?
8) Do you use molasses during the flush?

1) What is an Organic Soil-less media:

Growing plants in containers without soil can be split into two categories.

A) True Hydroponics, aka liquid culture: A nutrient solution is recirculated with food (usually synthetic) and this feeds the roots to make our precious flowers.
B) True Soil-less, aka aggregate culture : A nutrient solution is supplied to plants by watering through the media, and either drained-to-waste, or reused.

Soil-less grow media has often been called hydroponics. But that is not exactly correct. Nutri-culture has been suggested to be a more accurate term for various forms of soil-less growing. And soil-less growing itself is separated into: Inorganic Media and Organic Media. Inorganic Media is also farther separated into Natural Media and Synthetic Media.

THE MEDIAS EXPLAINED:

True Hydroponics: circulating solutions, aeroponics, static solutions

Aggregate System -> Inorganic Media (Hydroponics) -> Natural Media: sand, gravel, rockwool, perlite, vermiculite, pumice, expanded clay.

Aggregate System -> Inorganic Media (Hydroponics) -> Synthetic Media: oasis, hydrogel, foam mats (PET) and (PUR)

Aggregate System -> Organic Media: Peat, Sawdust, Bark, Cocofiber (the non-soil dirts).

So I am growing in an Organic Media, mostly peat, coco, and bark. But the majority of indoor growers are using perlite, which would technically make that media a combination of soil-less organic media and soil-less inorganic natural media. BOOM.

Post edit: This thread gets pretty negative before it goes positive. Just google my name if the arguing get too crazy, and feel free to ask me questions anywhere you can find me. Peace

 

[Matt Rize]

Part 2: Why Use Soil-less?

Part 2: Why Use Soil-less?

"Soil-less Growing Media Explained Part 2: Why Use Soil-less?

The short answer is simple preference. The long answer is much more controversial. Here we go.

IMO soil-less organic media with soil-less inorganic natural media are ideal for advanced indoor gardens.

Here are my reasons:

a. Water Retention: Soil-less literally/practically means lower water retention in comparison to true soil. By having lower water retention we can feed more often, which is important when relying primarily on liquid/powdered plant food. Faster wet/dry cycles may speed up the overall life-cycle, a common claim of hydro growers.

b. Perlite: This goes back to water retention. The soil-less community loves perlite, although personally I am attempting to give it up completely for reason's related to my grow ideals. My mom and grandma explained to me the importance of perlite for container plants. Some plants need it, some don't, ganja LOVES it. In containers perlite helps fight soil compaction... but watering gently and slowly does as well.

c. Coco/Peat/Bark: These are the popular soil-less organic choices, although I'm not sure as to the proper label for the amendments. ie rice hulls, small sticks, EWC, and compost. These natural and organic products are great for growing Cannabis. pH seems to be the major issue in these products, as their buffering capacity is generally less than true soil.

Coco/Peat/Bark are extremely common for growing Cannabis. In fact, around here the majority of indoor gardens are soil-less organics. The common Cannabis designed potting mixes that most indoor folks use: Ocean Forest, Happy Frog, Promix, Sunshine, Roots Organics, Light Warrior, Bio Terra Plus, Humboldt Nutrients mix... these are all technically a combination of soil-less organics (peat or coco plus other stuff) and soil-less inorganic natural media (perlite). Of exception is the Bio Terra Plus which is actually just soil-less organic as it contains no perlite.

d. Control: By not having food in slow release form you are in control over what the plant gets. It is then your job to "read and feed" your plants. This really gives you the opportunity to learn what your plants use (food) and when they use it (stage of life cycle). This also lets you push your plants to the max while keeping it organic.

e. Chlorosis: Advanced chlorosis at harvest may lead to smoother smoking flowers. Soil-less media has no slow release food, so Nitrogen must be provided or the plants instantly yellow. This is true until two weeks from harvest for all soil-less organics. Once the N is cut the green is literally sucked from the plant, by design for soil-less organics. This means the freshly dried herb will have a jump start on the curing process. The chlorophyll is consumed by the plant. This reveals the secondary pigments already present in the leaves and flowers but buried in a sea of cholorphyll. Secondary pigments (not green) include: purple, blue, lime green, red, orange, gold, and other light green colors.

Here goes the numbers for Bio Terra Plus. This is a super heavy (high water retention) soil-less media because it has no perlite.

Organic matter min 75% of gross product
Electrical Conductivity: 1.1-1.3mS/cm
pH (H2O): 5.5-6.5
Water Retention: 7.1 (gms per gm of organic matter)
__________________

 

[VerdantGreen]

still clinging on to that self-anointed title 'Professor?'

did you not learn anything from the last thread??

 

[Clackamas Coot]

VG

A working definition from the Professor would probably be helpful. From his writings it would appear that he's not quite got that part of his discussion down or he's having trouble explaining what 'soil' is vs. 'dirt'

Professor - any help here?

CC

 

[Clackamas Coot]

So I am growing in an Organic Media, mostly peat, coco, and bark. But the majority of indoor growers are using perlite, which would technically make that media a combination of soil-less organic media and soil-less inorganic natural media. BOOM.

Matt Rize

Try reading the USDA's National Organic Program (NOP) definition and ruling on the use of perlite which is a mined amendment.

Here's the reference: NOP 205.203(d)(2) - expand your knowledge base. It certainly couldn't/wouldn't hurt, eh?

CC

 

[Microbeman]

Matt,

This is nothing new, although your explanation is not very detailed. This is the same old growing method as outlined in the grow books of the 90s; clinging to the fantasy that senescence yellowing is controlled. BTW you do know that sphagnum peat moss is a great water retainer, once it gets wet. Are you aware that peat is also loaded with nutrients which are released over time through microbial interaction. It is not some inert material as many profess. What do you recommend all your 'students' do with their growing media once they get their precious flower? You could say they could use it in their outdoor garden but as I recall, you are relating to people on the thirtieth floor of apartment buildings.....hmmm. Oh oh! If they reuse the media it is going to turn into true soil. I was looking for the molasses explanation but where is it? There is no big deal about using molasses. It is simply a microbial food with antioxidants and micronutrients. It does not act as a sweetener to cannabis flowers as many say, nor does cool-aid nor orange juice.

 

[Microbeman]

From OMRI

Perlite
Status: Allowed
Class: Crop Fertilizers and Soil Amendments
Origin: Nonsynthetic
Description: See MINED MINERALS – UNPROCESSED.
NOP Rule: 205.203(d)(2) A mined substance of low solubility

As Coot has suggested Matt, if you are going to teach, first get educated (at least a little)

 

[DARC MIND]

learning alot Matt, thnx

 

[Clackamas Coot]

No one ever said that education was cheap....... - Professor Harvey Wallbanger, CalState Santa Cruz

 

[Suby]

d. Control: By not having food in slow release form you are in control over what the plant gets. It is then your job to "read and feed" your plants. This really gives you the opportunity to learn what your plants use (food) and when they use it (stage of life cycle). This also lets you push your plants to the max while keeping it organic.

This goes pretty much against what we teach about LIVING SOIL.
Why in the hell would you want to wait until your plants ASK for food, by the time that happens plants are already missing the nutrition.
Having a living soil with ammendments already at the plants disposal is the way most growers would like it, we are already familier with the needs of our favorite herb so why wait?
Most experienced growers know when and how to boost a living soil with higher release fertilizers to supplement at key point during the plants life cycle without waiting for their babies to beg for it...
As for molasses there is no real debate amongst growers of this forum as to it's usefullness, it's a food source for the microherd and has micronutrients to boot.
If I am wrong please school me.

 

[staff11]

It's funny, of all the gardening forums I have ever been around it seems like the pot forums just have masses of people that seem like they all have some sort of god complex and can control everything that the plant does.

 

[Matt Rize]

reply to suby

reply to suby

This goes pretty much against what we teach about LIVING SOIL.
Why in the hell would you want to wait until your plants ASK for food, by the time that happens plants are already missing the nutrition.
Having a living soil with ammendments already at the plants disposal is the way most growers would like it, we are already familier with the needs of our favorite herb so why wait?
Most experienced growers know when and how to boost a living soil with higher release fertilizers to supplement at key point during the plants life cycle without waiting for their babies to beg for it...
As for molasses there is no real debate amongst growers of this forum as to it's usefullness, it's a food source for the microherd and has micronutrients to boot.
If I am wrong please school me.

This post is generally not about true soil, or a living soil. Living soil-less is different than living soil, and this thread is about acknowledging that and learning what we can about the differences.

Soil-less growing is very differnent than true soil. VERY. The physical differences are mostly explained above. Oh, and this info came from here but was mistakenly removed by admin:
http://ressources.ciheam.org/om/pdf/c31/CI020854.pdf

I never said to wait until your plants ask for food. I actually said "This really gives you the opportunity to learn what your plants use (food) and when they use it (stage of life cycle). This also lets you push your plants to the max while keeping it organic." So what I'm doing is providing as much food as they can take.

This whole thread is about 1) not using slow release and 2) using soil-less organic media. The bottled food users are outnumbering the slow release users, we all deserve to share knowledge.

And the certainly is heated debate over the use (mostly overuse) of molasses on this site and other ganja forums. This is all coming down the road, as I have spelled out so kindly in my outline.

Thanks for contributing. Raspect.

 

[Matt Rize]

Huh? What is soil? What is dirt? Slang

Huh? What is soil? What is dirt? Slang

A working definition from the Professor would probably be helpful. From his writings it would appear that he's not quite got that part of his discussion down or he's having trouble explaining what 'soil' is vs. 'dirt'
Professor - any help here?

Check out this link if you can't read my writing (I got this link approved by pink).

Dirt is a slang term with no real meaning. Soil as well, that is why I have defined the different media in the OP...

http://ressources.ciheam.org/om/pdf/c31/CI020854.pdf

 

[Matt Rize]

God complex

God complex

It's funny, of all the gardening forums I have ever been around it seems like the pot forums just have masses of people that seem like they all have some sort of god complex and can control everything that the plant does.

And Bubbleman claims to be a bubble ambassador, yet I have reason to believe he is not sanctioned by the nation of bubble. And is Gypsy really a gypsy? It doesn't really matter. They both kick-ass!

Seems like you have 300+ posts and still on your first bar of rep. Maybe you should try contributing instead of just trolling?

 

[staff11]

Like I care about my rep in a pot forum. lol

 

[Matt Rize]

deleted
Full Melt Hash Pipe: just for fun

 

[Matt Rize]

Perlite: Organic or Inorganic?

Perlite: Organic or Inorganic?

Matt Rize
Try reading the USDA's National Organic Program (NOP) definition and ruling on the use of perlite which is a mined amendment.
Here's the reference: NOP 205.203(d)(2)

Perlite is defined (IMO as well as others) as a soil-less inorganic natural media. Not from OMRI or any other paid institution like that. The word natural is much more apt than organic with regards to perlite. And "soil-less inorganic natural media" makes way more sense than to call it simply organic. I would think you soil nerds appreciate the definitions, as they are not my own anyways.
http://ressources.ciheam.org/om/pdf/c31/CI020854.pdf

 

[Suby]

Growing organically implies having a living soil.
If the bottled ferts you are using are truly 100% organics then how is it being broken down for the plants to use.
You'll find in this forum that the ''slow release users'' vastly outnumber the bottled nute growers with amazing results to boot.

This really gives you the opportunity to learn what your plants use (food) and when they use it (stage of life cycle). This also lets you push your plants to the max while keeping it organic

I am looking forward to some clarifications on this, it seems you are saying slow release fetilizers do not give the plant everything they need?

 

[Matt Rize]

reply to microgod

reply to microgod

Matt,
This is nothing new, although your explanation is not very detailed.

To begin, very little is new these days. Patience mm. It is coming. My outline was out of respect for you and spurr... so y'all could see the direction and prepare your rebuttals.

This is the same old growing method as outlined in the grow books of the 90s; clinging to the fantasy that senescence yellowing is controlled.

HUH? This post is about soil-less, defining it, and explaining how it differs from true soil or hydro. Oh yeah... I am the yellowing god, I rule and reign over chlorophyll and the other secondary pigments

BTW you do know that sphagnum peat moss is a great water retainer, once it gets wet. Are you aware that peat is also loaded with nutrients which are released over time through microbial interaction. It is not some inert material as many profess.

First: yeah, that is why most use 30% perlite with their peat, as I mentioned in the op.
Second: Well duh, lots going on with peat, it is not rockwool or other hydro media. But try to grow from start to finish indoor in straight peat and no amendments, then come back to me with a failed garden.

What do you recommend all your 'students' do with their growing media once they get their precious flower?

My students vary, all ages, from all over the world. I recommend re-use, but they do what they want/can when it comes down to it.

You could say they could use it in their outdoor garden but as I recall, you are relating to people on the thirtieth floor of apartment buildings.....hmmm. Oh oh!

I donate mine used up BTPlus to a local organic ranch. They mix it in to their larger piles. Many here build raised garden beds with their used media, they don't even know that is it reusable for Cannabis, and possibly better the second time around.

If they reuse the media it is going to turn into true soil. I was looking for the molasses explanation but where is it? There is no big deal about using molasses. It is simply a microbial food with antioxidants and micronutrients. It does not act as a sweetener to cannabis flowers as many say, nor does cool-aid nor orange juice.

OMG MM, wait patiently for the rest like the others. This thread is all over the other ganja forums. Cool-aid , that's funny. But seriously, I have been reading some hydro growers who claim molasses is bad for them, and there is a particular outdoor soil grower on rollitup that HATES molasses for teas or anything at all.
Molasses is not a sweetener, AGREED.

 

[Matt Rize]

suby, misunderstanding here

suby, misunderstanding here

Growing organically implies having a living soil.
If the bottled ferts you are using are truly 100% organics then how is it being broken down for the plants to use.
You'll find in this forum that the ''slow release users'' vastly outnumber the bottled nute growers with amazing results to boot.

I am looking forward to some clarifications on this, it seems you are saying slow release fetilizers do not give the plant everything they need?

You alone have said that slow release is not enough. I never said that. I said, as you quoted, that using liquid food works, not that using meal form food does not work.